Ask a Christian Theologian

[KlericV]

here's my query: If yahweh created everything, why are some things labeled "bad" such as narcotics, ham (in some instances) and a whole host of other things.

Also, i yahweh created everything and adam spread his word and so on and so forth, why do so many religions in the world not believe this shit?

Edit: oh, and another quick query, why do christians, and monotheists in general, think their morality is better than mine?

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

do you beleive in the existance of malignant entities bent on tempting mortals like us to commit sins? (demons)

The short answer is 'Yes'.

The longer answer may seem a bit of semantics, but let me attempt to flesh this out. A basic tennant of Christian faith is that God is omnipresent, and omniscient. But Satan, although he'd like you to believe otherwise, does indeed have limits. Satan is not omniscient nor omnipresent nor all powerful. James 4:1-10 even states that Satan will flee from us if we resist evil. But that doesn't mean Satan doesn't exude power or influence.

Eph. 6:12 states "For we are not fighting against people of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against the might powers of darkness that rule this world, and against the wicked spirits in the heavenly realms."

This passage (and others) indicate that there are indeed 'spirits' outside of our physical realm that have degrees of power who use them for reasons that fly in the face of God. Now while I believe there is indeed temptation, I'd like to expand your statment of demons "bent on tempting mortals like us to commit sins." into two additional thoughts:

1) Not all sin we commit needs to be blamed upon demons. As man, we ourselves are quite capable of falling and committing sin without any help from Satan or his minions. Pure human nature allows us (even Christians) to be fallible to our own ego's, lack of patientence, our own desires, etc. I know I have God in my heart, but that doesn't mean I am not tempted or succumb to sin on a daily basis.

2) Because Satan does have limits (as stated above) and God has allowed him 'temporary' dominion over the earth, Satan does indeed instruct his minions to 'mess' with us. And that 'messing' isn't always neccesarily temptation in the way most people think. Satan's main goal is to redirect your focus off of God, demons 'run intereference' in our lives and can take on many facets: self-doubt, self-loathing, helping to instill the feelings 'that we are not worthy of God's grace', that 'Jesus can't possibly care about your problem'.

I personally believe they do prey on psyche's. That doesn't mean that even the strongest Chritsian doesn't fall nor doesn't mean the weakest willed person can never overcome. Demons tempt, they tease, they prod, the poke fun of, they make you question your self-worth, help usher in depression, etc. Basically they are there to take the focus of off God, drive a wedge between a relationship with God, and fill your mind and your heart with confusion. When a person is in a state of confusion, people tend to grasp at anything that gives them immediate and tangible comfort and satisfaction, and often that comes in the form of either sins, or a drawing away from righteousness.

In the end, they can tempt as much as they want, but our free will allows us to make the decision on whether to succumb or not and Christ always gives us a way out. We may not always like the outcome, but sometimes what seems to be the immediate price is not much when taken into the bigger picture.

Thanks man

 

[orifice]

Hi, (im new to the forum tis is first post)

I have a question, Which do you believe to be more valid, the gnostic gospels(dead sea scrolls)which are unverified/not recognized, or the heavily edited and corrupted (catholic) bible? (Yes this is a loaded question!)

 

[TheDean]

I don't know much about Abiogenesis or primordial ooze, but nevertheless, what i shall say is this: sometimes, when there is no proven theory, you have to believe in that which seems most probable; and god with his super-powers and resurecting son just doens't cut it i'm afraid.

Humans would prefer a conspiracy theory to no theory at all, that is human nature.

Well i wouldn't. And what do you mean no theory? Evolution is a valid theory. It is the most likely theory.

 

[TheDean]

I'm sorry, but m,ost of that is simply not true.
I have no belief in god, and i have no desire for Satan either--since in order to believe in the christian devil i would have to put some value in the bible in the first place. why have morlas? It's easy. Yes, you are right that good and evil are subjective. In fact, they don't exist at all. We each decide what is good/bad. However, religion does not factor in at all. Why help others? Because it is something we feel good about, and because we want to help our feinds. There is no basis for morality. Well, we make our own morals. It's stems from not wanting to see the people we care about get hurt .

What about those we DON'T care about? Take some random company, we'll call them 'Fake Co.' Fake Co. is run by a guy who has outsourced all of his labor to a 3rd world country where he is underpaying all his workers who work in terrible conditions. On top of that, because he outsourced, many people in his home country lost their job with his company and now can't support their families.

Is that immoral? Why? There is no right or wrong. He just got himself and the stock holders a ton more money!

What about the man who lost his job because the CEO of Fake co. outsourced it to some poor country? What if he started stealing cars or electronics or whatever in order to survive. Is that ok? What if he stole YOUR car or computer? It it ok then too? Remember, there is no right or wrong, so you really have no authority to tell him otherwise.

What I meant, when I said "Once you remove the idea of God from men, you immediately implant the desires of the devil", isn't that you believe or fall under the 'spell' (If you will) of the devil, but rather: The man will encapsulate what the 'devil' signifies.

Well, i don't believe in god and i don't go around stealing cars etc. And listen, in my ideal society there would be no capitalism, so most of that wouldn't be an issue. But anyhoo, what i'm saying is we decide our own right and wrong. If as a society we all thought killing was god- then from our perspective it would be. However, the guy shouldn't be exploiting third word countries because that's simply not fair. Equality is incredibly important.

But i fail to understand i'm afraid how removingg od makes us evil. It doens't, plain and simple, it makes us smart.

 

[TheDean]

I have a question:

Why do you (or if not you, a big majority of religious people) think that this God person loves you? And why do you love Him or Her? (I am from the school that thinks if there is a God it is most likely a woman, since men don't have a certain organ called a uterus).

I recently met a guy on The Ocarina Network forums, who was very religious and had a 'relationship' with his God like a child has with it's mother, it bemused me to no end and disturbed me a little bit, I can't understand this at all.

HAHA. I never understood it- even when i was a christian. God never spoke to me without me having to really make things that happen seem like signs. Maybe his lack of existence was a factor there--

 

[Baby Tea]

Well, i don't believe in god and i don't go around stealing cars etc. And listen, in my ideal society there would be no capitalism, so most of that wouldn't be an issue. But anyhoo, what i'm saying is we decide our own right and wrong. If as a society we all thought killing was god- then from our perspective it would be. However, the guy shouldn't be exploiting third word countries because that's simply not fair. Equality is incredibly important.

But i fail to understand i'm afraid how removingg od makes us evil. It doens't, plain and simple, it makes us smart.

Ok, what you're saying does not make sense. First you say there is no right and wrong. That we make it up for ourselves! That good and evil do not exist! And then you say exploiting third world countries is bad because it's not fair? You're trying to invoke a moral framework on a universe that YOU YOURSELF said was amoral. That's a complete contradiction.

Whose to say what's fair and not fair?

And besides that: you said we all decide right and wrong for ourselves, now you're saying society does. Who decides then? If it's you, then who cares what 'society' says? And if it IS society, and if that is the absolute, then why do so many people break the laws deemed needed by society?

 

[TheDean]

ok listen. Good and evil are what we decide they are. But we have decided that certian things are god and bad. Society as a whole is unimportant, it is all about the individual and choice. However, i'm saying i wouldn't exploit people because i don't think it's very nice.
Good and bad aren't real, they are perception, but what i'm saying is people shouldn't do things that they wouldn't want others to do to them.

 

[GothmogII]

Well, i don't believe in god and i don't go around stealing cars etc. And listen, in my ideal society there would be no capitalism, so most of that wouldn't be an issue. But anyhoo, what i'm saying is we decide our own right and wrong. If as a society we all thought killing was god- then from our perspective it would be. However, the guy shouldn't be exploiting third word countries because that's simply not fair. Equality is incredibly important.

But i fail to understand i'm afraid how removingg od makes us evil. It doens't, plain and simple, it makes us smart.

Ok, what you're saying does not make sense. First you say there is no right and wrong. That we make it up for ourselves! That good and evil do not exist! And then you say exploiting third world countries is bad because it's not fair? You're trying to invoke a moral framework on a universe that YOU YOURSELF said was amoral. That's a complete contradiction.

Whose to say what's fair and not fair?

And besides that: you said we all decide right and wrong for ourselves, now you're saying society does. Who decides then? If it's you, then who cares what 'society' says? And if it IS society, and if that is the absolute, then why do so many people break the laws deemed needed by society?

I would agree that it's society that makes the rules. And indeed it would seem in this instance, that the prime rules are almost entirely influenced by the Big 10. Don't murder, don't steal etc. etc.

So, in that respect, I won't deny that, religion (if not specifically Christianity) has been a prime basis for the basics of how to and how not to treat your fellow person. However, that said, I don't believe that religion is a necessity to the continuation of morals. Most, and I'd even say the majority of people in the world accept that murder is wrong, that stealing is wrong, even if when they think about it, those things only stand strong as they as a society continue to think they -are- wrong. As long as there are parents that propagate these ideas to their young, and as long as there are people to propagate these ideas to their fellow persons, then, those morals will continue to exist regardless of any theistic activity.

As for why people choose not to follow those rules? Why do people break the laws deemed needed for the continuation of society? Well..to you, why do people break the laws set down by your god?

Honestly, I can think of a myriad of reasons, each of them specific to the person committing the crime, be it jealousy, revenge, bigotry, hatred, boredom, for money, for power, because they were abused, because they are abusers, because they have mental problems, because a fly landed on their nose. There's always reasons, be they good, bad or just plain stupid, there's always a reason for why X did Y thing. And perhaps they know what they're doing is wrong, maybe they don't, maybe they don't care? All I think matters in the end, is, that under the law these people get punished as appropriate. Of course as a society we should do our best to prevent these things in the first place, to install and sense of right and wrong, morals and ethical practice in each other, but, this wouldn't be 100% effective in all cases.

 

[gomerkyle9]

How can God or Jesus expect you to accept him as your savior or else you go to Hell? If you live your whole life being a good person and basically following the commandments anyway, what type of God would send you to Hell just because you didn't believe in him? I don't want to think that the supposedly great creator of our universe would send billion of otherwise good people into a massive pit of never-ending pain and fire beyond anything ever imagined in our reality. A bit harsh?

There are many religions in the world and many people grow up with what their parents believed. If their parents were wrong they go to Hell? They were raised with this religion chances are they are going to stick with it.

Say there is a tribe in South America that has had no contact with religious outsiders. They all grow up not even knowing there is a God, just doing whatever ceremonies their ancestors passed down. Do they go to Hell?

I would like to think that doing good things, and living an overall good life would be enough to either just die, or not get thrown into eternal suffering... But I guess that's why Christianity never made sense to me. I always figured I'd just find out if God is a stand-up guy the hard way.

Hope you answer!

 

[GothmogII]

How can God or Jesus expect you to accept him as your savior or else you go to Hell? If you live your whole life being a good person and basically following the commandments anyway, what type of God would send you to Hell just because you didn't believe in him? I don't want to think that the supposedly great creator of our universe would send billion of otherwise good people into a massive pit of never-ending pain and fire beyond anything ever imagined in our reality. A bit harsh?

There are many religions in the world and many people grow up with what their parents believed. If their parents were wrong they go to Hell? They were raised with this religion chances are they are going to stick with it.

Say there is a tribe in South America that has had no contact with religious outsiders. They all grow up not even knowing there is a God, just doing whatever ceremonies their ancestors passed down. Do they go to Hell?

I would like to think that doing good things, and living an overall good life would be enough to either just die, or not get thrown into eternal suffering... But I guess that's why Christianity never made sense to me. I always figured I'd just find out if God is a stand-up guy the hard way.

Hope you answer!

Edit: I know you were asking the OP, but he seems to be on vacation. Just thought I'd give it a shot anyhow. ^^'

I think the answer a few Christians are giving for that is: It isn't so much that you are a good person. But that it's far more important that you 'simply' believe. That just being good won't get you into heaven, you also have to have faith in god/jesus.

Don't got it? Well straight to hell you go my lad! Heh...
I think practitioners of other faiths are supposed to get into heaven too based on the notion that, they're technically still worshipping god, they just don't know it. An idea mind, I find rather strange, if not insulting, but then, I'm not of a faith so, I've nothing to get worked up about

 

[gomerkyle9]

Edit: I know you were asking the OP, but he seems to be on vacation. Just thought I'd give it a shot anyhow. ^^'

I think the answer a few Christians are giving for that is: It isn't so much that you are a good person. But that it's far more important that you 'simply' believe. That just being good won't get you into heaven, you also have to have faith in god/jesus.

Don't got it? Well straight to hell you go my lad! Heh...
I think practitioners of other faiths are supposed to get into heaven too based on the notion that, they're technically still worshipping god, they just don't know it. An idea mind, I find rather strange, if not insulting, but then, I'm not of a faith so, I've nothing to get worked up about

Man... That's a downer. Get it? A downer! Like Hell... Me? Stupid? What? No? Screw you guys.

edit: Thanks for the answer too BTW.

 

[Milford Cubicle]

So what you're saying is every single Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Atheist is going to hell? Regardless of how good or bad they are?

What about babies who die before they understand the concept of Jebus? Or every single person who lived and died before Christianity?

 

[GothmogII]

So what you're saying is every single Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Atheist is going to hell? Regardless of how good or bad they are?

What about babies who die before they understand the concept of Jebus? Or every single person who lived and died before Christianity?

Well...the Catholic Church at least -used- to have purgatory for that purpose, but I think of recent note they bowed down to outside pressure and scrapped it, people made a big fuss about how un-baptised babies wouldn't go straight to heaven. So, I guess the babies get into heaven, depending on who you ask, don't know about the rest *shrug*

 

[Leodiensian]

If you read Dante's Inferno, non-Christians who were virtuous were in fact sent to Hell, but actually lived outside in a Limbo-like state; they were not being tormented but their home was filled with sighs from not being able to get out or some such bull. I know that's not canon, but whatever.

Also, what makes one person think they can speak for the entirety of Christianity, which is the most self-conflicted and schismatic religion around today?

 

[Baby Tea]

I would agree that it's society that makes the rules. And indeed it would seem in this instance, that the prime rules are almost entirely influenced by the Big 10. Don't murder, don't steal etc. etc.

So, in that respect, I won't deny that, religion (if not specifically Christianity) has been a prime basis for the basics of how to and how not to treat your fellow person. However, that said, I don't believe that religion is a necessity to the continuation of morals. Most, and I'd even say the majority of people in the world accept that murder is wrong, that stealing is wrong, even if when they think about it, those things only stand strong as they as a society continue to think they -are- wrong. As long as there are parents that propagate these ideas to their young, and as long as there are people to propagate these ideas to their fellow persons, then, those morals will continue to exist regardless of any theistic activity.

As for why people choose not to follow those rules? Why do people break the laws deemed needed for the continuation of society? Well..to you, why do people break the laws set down by your god?

Honestly, I can think of a myriad of reasons, each of them specific to the person committing the crime, be it jealousy, revenge, bigotry, hatred, boredom, for money, for power, because they were abused, because they are abusers, because they have mental problems, because a fly landed on their nose. There's always reasons, be they good, bad or just plain stupid, there's always a reason for why X did Y thing. And perhaps they know what they're doing is wrong, maybe they don't, maybe they don't care? All I think matters in the end, is, that under the law these people get punished as appropriate. Of course as a society we should do our best to prevent these things in the first place, to install and sense of right and wrong, morals and ethical practice in each other, but, this wouldn't be 100% effective in all cases.

See, now you haven't shown the basis for morality in a naturalist/non-theist worldview. You are taking from the religious worldview in order to debunk it!

You say 'murder is wrong', but there is no 'good or evil', 'right or wrong' in the naturalist worldview. Hitchens himself said it: We're all just dancing to our DNA. And by calling these things right or wrong, you are trying to say there is a moral framework in an amoral universe when there is not (From the non-theist worldview).

My point in bringing up people breaking the laws of society, is merely to underscore the fact that morality isn't some universal idea within all people. With prison systems overflowing, countless crimes unsolved, and a backed up justice system: These speak volumes about the perceived 'morality' that is supposedly instilled in humanity.

You are trying to instill a sense of right and wrong without giving reasons WHY. And when that question is finally asked, and you stand there without defense, THAT is when the 'ideals' and 'laws' of society become moot, and it becomes do what is right for ME, and not do what is right. Because there is no right for the non-theist, except that which right for the individual.

 

[latenightapplepie]

So, I'd say any ministry that helps people through, or out of, any sinful lifestyles or choices is fantastic, so long as they do it with understanding and love.

First off, thanks for the response!

Okay, I agree with you in that helping people overcome problems they feel they have with understanding and love is a good thing.

BUT. I can't let that 'sinful lifestyle' comment go through to the keeper. Before we go all flame-y about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, or indeed whether you can simplify it that ridiculously, I'll ask you why you think/believe that homosexuality is a "sinful lifestyle". What indeed, do you mean by "lifestyle" in this context ? I know it is a common American term but its meaning generally eludes Australians like myself (we don't use it in this way).

 

[GothmogII]

I would agree that it's society that makes the rules. And indeed it would seem in this instance, that the prime rules are almost entirely influenced by the Big 10. Don't murder, don't steal etc. etc.

So, in that respect, I won't deny that, religion (if not specifically Christianity) has been a prime basis for the basics of how to and how not to treat your fellow person. However, that said, I don't believe that religion is a necessity to the continuation of morals. Most, and I'd even say the majority of people in the world accept that murder is wrong, that stealing is wrong, even if when they think about it, those things only stand strong as they as a society continue to think they -are- wrong. As long as there are parents that propagate these ideas to their young, and as long as there are people to propagate these ideas to their fellow persons, then, those morals will continue to exist regardless of any theistic activity.

As for why people choose not to follow those rules? Why do people break the laws deemed needed for the continuation of society? Well..to you, why do people break the laws set down by your god?

Honestly, I can think of a myriad of reasons, each of them specific to the person committing the crime, be it jealousy, revenge, bigotry, hatred, boredom, for money, for power, because they were abused, because they are abusers, because they have mental problems, because a fly landed on their nose. There's always reasons, be they good, bad or just plain stupid, there's always a reason for why X did Y thing. And perhaps they know what they're doing is wrong, maybe they don't, maybe they don't care? All I think matters in the end, is, that under the law these people get punished as appropriate. Of course as a society we should do our best to prevent these things in the first place, to install and sense of right and wrong, morals and ethical practice in each other, but, this wouldn't be 100% effective in all cases.

See, now you haven't shown the basis for morality in a naturalist/non-theist worldview. You are taking from the religious worldview in order to debunk it!

You say 'murder is wrong', but there is no 'good or evil', 'right or wrong' in the naturalist worldview. Hitchens himself said it: We're all just dancing to our DNA. And by calling these things right or wrong, you are trying to say there is a moral framework in an amoral universe when there is not (From the non-theist worldview).

My point in bringing up people breaking the laws of society, is merely to underscore the fact that morality isn't some universal idea within all people. With prison systems overflowing, countless crimes unsolved, and a backed up justice system: These speak volumes about the perceived 'morality' that is supposedly instilled in humanity.

You are trying to instill a sense of right and wrong without giving reasons WHY. And when that question is finally asked, and you stand there without defense, THAT is when the 'ideals' and 'laws' of society become moot, and it becomes do what is right for ME, and not do what is right. Because there is no right for the non-theist, except that which right for the individual.

Then, what is the opposition? Because god says so? Granted, that is a reason, but a pretty crummy one I think. -_-

Anyway...to clarify, needs of the many, not needs of the few. (Although a careful balance must be observed in order to avoid the tyranny of the masses.) I'm sorry...but, I can only think of religion in this instance as a moral code, but only on a non-divine aspect.

But the point is: I don't consider it any more than that.
It is a moral code, from where the basics of Western morality (there are older examples of course especially in regards to law) come from. But, I am wholly of the mind that it is a -human- creation. What I'm failing to understand, is how having a supposedly divine hand in it's extolment, is the only thing that makes it legitimate. As above, if the reason is thus: God spake it.

I don't think it impossible that humans cannot come up with a moral system on their own, nor that if assuming that such a code as espoused by Christianity etc. could not be adapted by others, in this case a purely non-theistic group of people.


On criminality: I don't disagree, there are a -lot- of people who do evil things despite the law, just as there are a lot of people who do evil things despite the Bible, but the only thing I can recall to that effect, is that a Christian who breaks any of those laws wasn't really a Christian at all, thus his fellows wipe their hands of the matter.


Why is murder wrong: It is wrong because, with little exception, we as a society have decided this is so.

 

[Alex_P]

I don't think it impossible that humans cannot come up with a moral system on their own, nor that if assuming that such a code as espoused by Christianity etc. could not be adapted by others, in this case a purely non-theistic group of people.

The basic idea is that supernatural dogma gets in the way of the moral teachings.

-- Alex

 

[GothmogII]

I don't think it impossible that humans cannot come up with a moral system on their own, nor that if assuming that such a code as espoused by Christianity etc. could not be adapted by others, in this case a purely non-theistic group of people.

The basic idea is that supernatural dogma gets in the way of the moral teachings.

-- Alex

So that's what it is! Thank you for that...hmm, you've given me something to research...thanks