First of all let's get the fact that I am a die hard atheist out of the way. I do not believe that there is a God or higher power of any form, nor do I believe that human beings have souls or that after we die we will be rewarded or punished based on the way we lived our lives.
So nice to know we are just meaningless piles of pre-rotten flesh. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone gives a crap about anyone or anything else. I mean why worry about suicide, safety, or suffering when the populous of the world is little more than squishy moving rocks.
For me, reality is such an absolute that it is an abstract concept. Really, explain the very nature of "reality". Because you cannot do it (no you can't) it is evidence enough for me to conclude that there is more to consciousness than we are aware of. While we are justifying our faiths. Atheism is a religious belief and your whole post is about how smart and awesome it is poorly hidden behind some sort of call for universal understanding.
That is what bothers me about the subject. i.e. believe what you want, just stop thrusting it on the rest of us. You want to know why I dislike atheism, it's worse than Jehova witnesses for it and they go door to door.
Atheists are typically open minded individuals who respect the views of others. We don't step on anyone's beliefs as long as they don't step on our beliefs (Or lack thereof). So why do we atheists get so much attitude from the religious community?
Bull shit, for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Scientoligist that cries about how everyone else is going to hell (or whatever) there are like a half a dozen atheists looking at anyone who believes like they're mentally retarded, making christian jokes, or posting to forums about how horrible and discriminatory people who go to church are.
Several times in my past I have met someone and become friendly with them. We might even remain friendly with each other for a while, but as soon as the topic of religion comes up it can ruin the entire relationship. For instance, I had met a girl (Let's call her Jane for the purposes of this.) at a dinner party and we hit it off. We had similar interests in music, film and books and things seemed to be going well. Until the actual dinner was getting started and most of the people there stood to say grace.
When the praying was done she sat down next to me and asked why I hadn't stood up. When I replied that I was an atheist and that praying would have been very hypocritical of me, she seemed shocked and even slightly offended that I didn't share her Cristian beliefs. Needless to say, we didn't exchange numbers.
So you go to a persons house and instead of acknowledging their practices, traditions, and beliefs you choose to, in lieu of making the polite gesture of standing up as a symbol of this respect, you decide to act like a total douchebag and broadcast your problem with them begging the inevitable "what's the prob" question and wonderful topic of varying religious belief (great first date material) and you're all surprise she didn't give you her number.
This was not a one time thing, and I'm sure it's happened to others of you who are atheists (Or even have different religions and have been turned away because of it.)
I've been trying for quite some time now to understand what it is about religious people (Predominantly Christians, because where I'm from is a mostly Christian society and I don't know of many people of other faiths)
There it is. Rebelling against mom and dad and the good christian kids of the neighourhood. Gotta get that shot in. You just shot everything you had to say on the topic in the foot. More so.
When I heard Anti-Theism I was given the impression of "not believing in religion" as opposed to "not believing in God" which I think is a much more intelligent sentiment given the corruption and excesses that are rampant throughout organized religion.
Instead I am greeted by another kind of bible thumper. Believe what you want, but this thread is as bad as a christian coming onto the boards and discussing how he doesn't get "non-Christians" because they're so violent and uncaring.
When you're eighty and at deaths door, kid, I'd be really interested to see how certain you are that your inevitable rot is it.
I've been an atheist all my life, even as a kid I was an atheist. My folks never gave me any religious indoctrination of any kind and neither they bashed it. They just let me be a kid.
When I was in primary school all my friends and my un-friends seemed to be doing their first communion(a catholic rite), or their confirmation (another one), so I naturally thought maybe I was missing on something, so my brother and I decided to start taking our catechism courses. The first day, me and my brother were sitting at church after my mum and dad took us there in sunday, and I remember the teacher gathered all of us (the kids) and told us to raise our hand if we were baptized, I immediately turned to look at my brother and then we both raised our hands immediately.
Yeah, way to start our commitment with God. I know that's not exactly fighting the power but what can I say? they were more, and seemed slightly annoyed like us to be there in sunday.
After that, lots of stuff that I don't quite remember, only that it was boring.
Sunday after sunday our parents took us there, we even went on a church road trip (Groan) where people knelt and prayed in furor which we found weird. That kept going until my brother and I had enough. We didn't do anything useful and people kept telling us what to do and what not to do. Our folks were not forcing us, and at that point megaman 4 was a LOT more interesting than going to hell for misbehaving. So we dropped out.
In the epic battle for our souls between Christ and Pharaoh Man the latter emerged as the clear victor.
We figured out we could just continue later...later never came, mind you. We were to lazy for religion, it seemed.
Now, flashfoward almost two decades, and I can say I made the right choice. Going to church and trying to commute with some thing I couldn't see but people kept telling me was awesome just didn't do it for me. Now, THAT was all before I actually showed any interest in the sciences. I'm not a rapist, a bigot a chauvminist, or even rude.
After having studied sciences and nature, and stuff, and having had my brain throughly ass raped by quantum physics, I can safely say that just using my logic, I couldn't believe even if I wanted. Faith in the supernatural can't hold a candle to the belief in the fallible human will.
The world is just a bunch of stuff going around with no preset purpose--just probabilities. What we perceive is an average of those probabilities. Period. That's what's been measured and that's what the science says--our only window of deeply understanding nature stemming from human means. And it isn't just me when I say "Period." If a God really wanted to make an ideal universe he fucked up big time with this one. Even if there were something analogue to God, that doesn't mean it would be anything like what we conjure in our own feeble brains so any attempts to define it fall naturally flat, even assigning to it qualities one usually assigns to a God.
Now, on topic(sorry if I've bored you with my ramblings): Still, I have come up to people who do, indeed, treat me as if I was lacking something, and they take offense when I turn around their attempts to convert me by telling them to stop believing. México is a predominantly catholic nation, so amongst that environment one gets used to the world hell pretty fast, even as a kid people can give you attitude.
I honestly believe that theists are wrong from the start in what they believe, but even if what they believe is a fiction to me, if it feels real to them and can somehow nurture a feeling of wholeness and human understanding, then they instantly qualify as fine people in my book.
If you are a theist, I'll tell you that I'm less concerned in what you believe than in how you believe and how you act.
Just to be clear, we are talking about using the wide, pointy end of the rake right? It's just not the same using the handle, even if it causes splinters.
extremes suck, and for the sheeple, cant we just make the forked end of the rake out of really splintery wood with a steel core? problem solved. or maybe a double headed rake of some sort, if were using them on ALL the sheeple wouldnt multiple heads be more effective.
i view religious recruiters the same as i view telemarketers, things to be pitied, hated, or used to amuse myself depending on my mood. unless i ask, if i ask, well, thats like stabbing yourself in the leg, and only an idiot would ever do that.
im not asking for us to all get along, but could we at least not try to live in homogenous societies? if everybody is the same then its fucking boring, no new ideas, more varied people, more varied philosophies=more varied ideas coming out of those people, im not saying we cant have a good old fashioned world war every onece in a while, im just saying that when everybody around you is the same you tend to become an idiot and very intolerant of anything even slightly different (adaptability is kinda one of the few things humans have going for us over, say, tigers or space-bacteria). why the fuck would anybody want that?
when people were hitting things with sticks, hot science was literal, and the new fall fashion was goat, religion served its purpose, that purpose has been served, now we have complex languages, and non-religious organizations uniting us, at this point ridgid unforgiving intolerent religion serves only to divide us, and give us some good jokes... maybe.
I go to a university on Australia where Christians like to walk around and ask people "what do you think about Jesus" and all this crap, and I've been very polite, which i think is important.
It's one of those topics you just shouldn't touch, and any discussion or arguments with atheists/anti-theists vs christian's is not going to end well.
Think about it logically, when was the last time you were having this discussion with someone of different beliefs, and they just suddenly went "My word, you're right, I've been wrong all this time, thanks for clearing that up"
It just doesn't happen, it's always best just left alone.
You don't know anything about everyone, so for the sake of respect and actual coherence I advice you to save such petty remarks to when you are talking to people in person and see if you still care to hold them in contempt after being glared at like a fool.
Bull shit, for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Scientoligist that cries about how everyone else is going to hell (or whatever) there are like a half a dozen atheists looking at anyone who believes like they're mentally retarded, making christian jokes, or posting to forums about how horrible and discriminatory people who go to church are.
I like to think of myself a a skeptic. I believe nothing, but hope I can be proved wrong. This lets me see things I can't explain as having an explination, but not one i nessasarily understand. For example, radiowaves travel further at night. I don't know why, but I trust there's a scientific explination for it (dont post it here, i dont care, i really dont).
that said, there's a flip side of the coin. In what I refer to as "the Becker Argument", what if god IS really speaking to people through their chemical imbalances? it's a possiblity I can't discount
that seem rather unlucky about your encounters.
I am an atheist, always have been, however a tend to view religion slightly different from other people. I view religion as moral standard to help improve someone as a person. For examples I view the ten commandments as just moral views to follow to help live a better life for yourself and others. As I tend to use the common sense moral approach I don't feel I need to affiliate myself with an given religion. What also strays me away from doing so is how most religions tend to expect you to worship a greater being, which I feel would not benefit me in any way. As long as I live by accepted standards then I shouldn't have a problem with most people.
I am Scottish and have lived in Scotland all my life. Whats strange is how much your encounters differ from mine. I have found over here that it benefits you greatly to say you are atheist as when you affiliate yourself with a religion and sub-religion(eg catholics and protestants) then some people may not take to you the same way they would if you said you were atheist. I don't mind anyone who believes in a religion, however what I do not like is when they take religion to the extremeties.
I'm of the belief that's something's out there, but I really don't care what, or who. That said, I frankly don't care what anyone else believes in, as long as they don't go hurting someone, or forcing their beliefs onto someone else. As long as people don't do those two things, I'm fine with them.
As for your school experience Jobz, if I may ask, Did you go to a Christian school, or a government one? If it's a government school, and your political system means the Church is seperate from the State, then you could argue your work. Just putting it out there.
Bull shit, for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Scientoligist that cries about how everyone else is going to hell (or whatever) there are like a half a dozen atheists looking at anyone who believes like they're mentally retarded, making christian jokes, or posting to forums about how horrible and discriminatory people who go to church are.
*sigh*
Agnostic doesn't mean you're "undecided". It means you have the worldview that "We don't know for sure whether X is true or not", X in this case being God's existance. This does not, repeat not preclude having an opinion on the subject. There are agnostic atheists, agnostic Christians, agnostic Buddhists, agnostics who await Ragnarok. Being agnostic on the matter simply means you can say "Well, we don't know for sure" and mean it. It's not uncommon to say "Well, we don't know for sure, but I think X". It's still agnosticism.
Sorry, I get incredibly anal when I see people misusing the term "agnostic".
So nice to know we are just meaningless piles of pre-rotten flesh. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone gives a crap about anyone or anything else. I mean why worry about suicide, safety, or suffering when the populous of the world is little more than squishy moving rocks.
This argument supposes that this is the case, but look! There are atheists running around who AREN'T stabbing each other for giggles and shits.
Furthermore, are you implying that if you did not believe in God or religion, you'd be completely amoral with no regard for anyone else?
So nice to know we are just meaningless piles of pre-rotten flesh. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone gives a crap about anyone or anything else. I mean why worry about suicide, safety, or suffering when the populous of the world is little more than squishy moving rocks.
This is one argument that I've never understood. How does not believing in God necessitate that nothing has any value? Do you think that atheists somehow are incapable of feeling emotions or empathy just because they don't think that god exists? Why the hell are you bitching about atheists shoving their views on people in a thread in which the whole point is that there are plenty of atheists who are happy to live their own lives and let religious people live theirs?
When you're eighty and at deaths door, kid, I'd be really interested to see how certain you are that your inevitable rot is it.
How do you think that this ridiculous and pointlessly insulting statement gels with your accusations about atheists a few paragraphs earlier in your same post?
Like I said, I'm happy to live and let live, but just so you know, it's exactly this sort of invasive, condescending, holier-than-thou, judgmental bullshit that makes people react angrily to the concept of religion in the first place.
My Dad made some comment recently about atheists being devil worshipers. I had to correct him. I was pretty appalled.
My family is very Christian. Too Christian IMO. I stopped going to church because I just don't see eye-to-eye with all of the beliefs they portray. I'm doing my best to weed out all the garbage and evangelical talk that most Christians spew. I still believe in God, but I believe that he isn't the deity that he is credited to be. I think He is something far less, and our lack of understanding of Him has elevated him to embarrassing levels and our false interpretations make people spew bullshit like "God hates fags." I find these attitudes deplorable, and so far from (what should be) the truth, that I'm ashamed to even group myself with these people. Even my mom is uncomfortable with gays, and she the most compassionate person I know.
PS: I've concluded that evangelizing is 1 part people wanting to share what makes them feel good with other people, and 10 parts archaic church teachings embedded into the religion to bring more people into service so that the church can get more money from donations. It makes far more sense than a deity condemning "His children" to everlasting torment for not believing in him.
OK, this is going to take a while to reply to, and in order to conserve space I have hidden the posts in spoiler tags. Click to read them.
mark_n_b post=18.73419.795301 said:
So nice to know we are just meaningless piles of pre-rotten flesh. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone gives a crap about anyone or anything else. I mean why worry about suicide, safety, or suffering when the populous of the world is little more than squishy moving rocks.
For me, reality is such an absolute that it is an abstract concept. Really, explain the very nature of "reality". Because you cannot do it (no you can't) it is evidence enough for me to conclude that there is more to consciousness than we are aware of. While we are justifying our faiths. Atheism is a religious belief and your whole post is about how smart and awesome it is poorly hidden behind some sort of call for universal understanding.
That is what bothers me about the subject. i.e. believe what you want, just stop thrusting it on the rest of us. You want to know why I dislike atheism, it's worse than Jehova witnesses for it and they go door to door.
In response to your first point, at no time did I ever say life is meaningless, or that we are all "pieces of pre-rotten flesh" as you put it. I am an atheist, not an existentialist. You are putting words in my mouth. I am just as worried about safety and suffering as anyone else, but not because a "God" or more correctly a group of men who worshiped said God wrote a book telling me I should. I'm worried about these things because I'm a good, moral human being. You do not need religion to be moral, and you do not need religion to have a happy, fulfilling life. Suggesting otherwise is just silly.
In response to your second point, no, I cannot define the nature of reality, no one can. Moving on.
Thirdly, you claim that I'm simply saying how smart and cool atheism is, and I'm trying to hide but apparently failing. This is complete nonsense. I at no point ever even hinted that atheism is better or worse than any other religion. That was the exact opposite of the purpose of my post. You may have misunderstood me, or perhaps it came off that way. But it was not meant to.
mark_n_b post=18.73419.795301 said:
Bull shit, for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Scientoligist that cries about how everyone else is going to hell (or whatever) there are like a half a dozen atheists looking at anyone who believes like they're mentally retarded, making christian jokes, or posting to forums about how horrible and discriminatory people who go to church are.
I actually sighed when I read this, which is a first for me (Sighing after reading a forum post I mean). Perhaps my memory is even worse than I thought, but I thought I has pretty much already said this. There ARE non-believers who look at religious people like that, but as I explained, the term for them is anti-theist, not atheist. Look it up, you'll see what I'm talking about.
mark_n_b post=18.73419.795301 said:
So you go to a persons house and instead of acknowledging their practices, traditions, and beliefs you choose to, in lieu of making the polite gesture of standing up as a symbol of this respect, you decide to act like a total douchebag and broadcast your problem with them begging the inevitable "what's the prob" question and wonderful topic of varying religious belief (great first date material) and you're all surprise she didn't give you her number.
First let me make clear that this was not that girl's house, or anyone's house for that matter. It was a room in the back of a restaurant intended for large groups such as dinner parties. Second of all, even if it was her house I hardly think not praying makes me a "douche bag."
If you had someone who was Hindu over for dinner, would you cook steak and ask him to eat it? I don't think so. Do you know why you wouldn't do that? Because it's against his religious beliefs. Just like praying would be against my lack of beliefs. It's actually you who would be being disrespectful for expecting me to pray.
mark_n_b post=18.73419.795301 said:
There it is. Rebelling against mom and dad and the good christian kids of the neighourhood. Gotta get that shot in. You just shot everything you had to say on the topic in the foot. More so.
This would have actually been a good point if my parents were Christian. Unfortunately they are both atheists as well, so in my case, being religious would be an act of rebellion. Weird huh? So please, don't say things like that acting like you know anything about me. Because you don't.
EDIT: Upon thinking about this more, I actually take offense to you referring to the Christian children of the neighborhood as "good". That implies that Christians are better than me, and that is very offensive. I'm not sure whether you meant it that way or not, but either way that's what it sounds like.
mark_n_b post=18.73419.795301 said:
When I heard Anti-Theism I was given the impression of "not believing in religion" as opposed to "not believing in God" which I think is a much more intelligent sentiment given the corruption and excesses that are rampant throughout organized religion.
Instead I am greeted by another kind of bible thumper. Believe what you want, but this thread is as bad as a christian coming onto the boards and discussing how he doesn't get "non-Christians" because they're so violent and uncaring.
This point actually makes no sense to me. At no point was I saying I didn't get religious people for any reason. I was saying that I can't understand why people in general (This includes atheists and people of all religions) can't be more understanding and respectful of other people's cultures and religions.
mark_n_b post=18.73419.795301 said:
When you're eighty and at deaths door, kid, I'd be really interested to see how certain you are that your inevitable rot is it.
Frankly I'll be lucky if I live to be eighty (What with me being an adrenaline junkie) but at whatever age I'm at, regardless of health or my current proximity to "death's door" my beliefs will hold true. Just as I'm sure yours will.
As a strongly committed scientist and evolutionist, I tend towards atheism, because I see no current place for a god in accepted theories. I don't show any anti-theistic tendencies, but I do show exceptionally strong tendencies to rip creationism apart at any opportunity.
We have a lot in common, then. I've tempered my Creationist-ripping tendencies for the sake of decorum and not killing the conversation at the dinner table, so to speak.
No, seriously- I consider it impolite to bandy one's politics and religion about in a social or workplace setting, unless you know everyone agrees with you, or that everyone is willing to discuss things academically and not get personal. That goes for evangelicals of all stripes- theistic fundamentalists, militant atheists, everyone.
But we atheists have to contend with one simple fact: our belief is no more proven, or provable, than any other religion. I'm okay with that. It keeps things polite.
because i think that people that believe in a God have made a stupid choice.... it's that simple.
I just dont see how you could not have made a stupid choice such as believe of god with the mountain of evidence against it, and the complete lack of evidence for it.
No one has provided a good argument for God based on LOGIC and FACTS.
That simple, if you believe in god, you are somewhat stupid.... regardless of intelligence.
There is actually a book devoted to explaining logically a case for believing in God. The book is called "The Language of God" and is written byFrancis S. Collins, a scientist. After reading it, there was no doubt in my mind. Francis S. Collins is best noted for his leadership on the Human Genome Project (HGP).
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