Atheist Bible

[caross73]

Yeah, funny how many of those people are religious.

Atheists are the least represented, as a proportion of their frequency in the general population, among prisoners. Its one of the few things we can be proud of.

A survey done a few years ago turned up results showing that the majority of people in Islington, London said their religion was 'Jedi'. Does that mean they are Jedi, own lightsabers and can use the force?

No. Saying you are religious does not make you so. To quote Tyler Durden "Sticking feather's up your butt doesn't make you a chicken."

I love how whenever data supports your contention, its unquestionable, and the person disputing it is an idiot, but when it doesn't, its ridiculous and only a moron would believe it.

So you are saying that because data says that most Islington dwellers are Jedi then I should believe that they really are Jedi?

Putting aside that Christians are a diverse bunch, and you are contesting a different survey (the Bureau of Prisons has a bit more authority than an informal survey) is there a Jedi authority that defines who can and cannot be a Jedi?

I believe his name is George Lucas?

Is he a Jedi?

Here ya go: http://templeofthejediorder.org/index.php

Looks legit to me. "Jediism is not the same as that which is portrayed within the Star Wars Saga by George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD. George Lucas' Jedi are fictional characters that exist within a literary and cinematic universe."

"I Believe in The Living Force Of Creation;
I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

I am a Jedi.
I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive;
In pardoning that we are pardoned;
And in dying that we are born to eternal life.

The Living Force Of Creation is always with me; I am a Jedi."

Perhaps Islington is a splinter group.

 

[Baby Tea]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

 

[Ignignoct]

I refer you to my pizza statement above.

Even if I were to concede entirely to your argument, it'd still sound like this:

"Okay, you got me, I ran out of ideas. I guess Religion's fear-mongering sin-scare-tactics served in the creation of laws we now take for granted. All past tense. Many of us don't need your Gods anymore to be happy, well-adjusted, law-abiding citizens."

You are missing my point a bit. I don't believe in a god dude. I don't know, but I personally don't think there is one. So I am in no way trying to convince you that there is.

I am just trying to say that complaining the problem with religion is there is no proof, while at the same time having morals, is the same as complaining that alcohol is bad for you while lighting up a cigarette. If you want to have that smoke you go right ahead. There isn't anything wrong with it. All I am asking is that you let Baby Tea have his drink without bashing him for it.

MMMM... How am I missing the point? We're discussing religion's effect on law here, right? I'm sorry if you thought I was pretending to know your personal religious affiliations.

Don't mind me, I'm not going to bash someone for their beliefs, but I'll be damned if I, by proxy, am labeled illogical for being "nice" myself without a god-figure to scare me into it. Your analogy is sketchy, in that you assume our discussing morality either-which-way is somehow toxic. Better to compare it to chocolate VS vanilla ice cream, m'thinks.

Your little brother Jimmy lit a firecracker in his hand and now has a stump. Jimmy can no longer has a hand. This is bad for obvious reasons. God or no God.

Your little sister Jenny got raped and impregnated by a trucker on her way home from high school, she will experience such intense human suffering over the course of deciding if she wants to keep the child, abort it, report the rapist, prosecute her abuser, relive her trauma, having trust/sex issues. This is bad for obvious reasons. God or no God.

Oh, and to catch up on all the smack talk I've been forgetting to inject:

"WTF UR A MORON Y DO I EVEN TRY TO GET THROUGH TO YOU GO KILL URSELF PZL!"

 

[caross73]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

Lack of morality, evil, whats the difference?

You said, paraphrased "if Secular Naturalism is so great, why are there so many criminals?"

Apparently they are more moral, if you are regarding morality as committing fewer crimes.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I refer you to my pizza statement above.

Even if I were to concede entirely to your argument, it'd still sound like this:

"Okay, you got me, I ran out of ideas. I guess Religion's fear-mongering sin-scare-tactics served in the creation of laws we now take for granted. All past tense. Many of us don't need your Gods anymore to be happy, well-adjusted, law-abiding citizens."

You are missing my point a bit. I don't believe in a god dude. I don't know, but I personally don't think there is one. So I am in no way trying to convince you that there is.

I am just trying to say that complaining the problem with religion is there is no proof, while at the same time having morals, is the same as complaining that alcohol is bad for you while lighting up a cigarette. If you want to have that smoke you go right ahead. There isn't anything wrong with it. All I am asking is that you let Baby Tea have his drink without bashing him for it.

MMMM... How am I missing the point? We're discussing religion's effect on law here, right?

No, we are not. We have been discussing peoples right to believe whatever they want without scorn, prejudice, belittlement, or abuse. That is how you are missing the point.

My views on secularity are thus:-

There are a LOT of things connected with religion that need to be addressed. God shouldn't be in the law, or in the government, or in the classroom (not taught as fact anyway).

 

[Mullahgrrl]

I would say that Christians are atheist mostly.

Sure, they belive in one god. but if you consider all the gods they dont belive in I really don't think one more or less is that big of a deal.

 

[Ignignoct]

No, we are not. We have been discussing peoples right to believe whatever they want without scorn, prejudice, belittlement, or abuse. That is how you are missing the point.

My views on secularity are thus:-

There are a LOT of things connected with religion that need to be addressed. God shouldn't be in the law, or in the government, or in the classroom (not taught as fact anyway).

BUAHAHAH!

Well then, we've been in agreement the entire time. Why are you so angry!?!?!

Do you want to spoon for a bit and watch some X-Files? Hmmm?... Maybe get some Reese's PB Cups?

 

[Baby Tea]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

You said, paraphrased "if Secular Naturalism is so great, why are there so many criminals?"

Apparently they are more moral, if you are regarding morality as committing fewer crimes.

Oh now I get it, you just misunderstood me.
That paraphrase would be correct if I was using it in an example where everyone was a naturalist.
But I wasn't.
I was pointing out how crime is still as big a problem as ever in rebuttal to Ignignoct saying that society, as a whole, is moral (At least, that's what I got from him). Which is silly, considering the prisons systems are overflowing.
While one could say that even with the state of the prison system , the majority aren't committing crimes, I would say that there are thousands of crimes that go unsolved every year (This isn't CSI, people do get away with things), and that combined with the prison system shows that while there certainly are 'normal' people who don't commit crimes daily, or ever, the amount of people who do commit crimes isn't a number to be easily ignored.

And like I said, people confuse being a certain religion with being raised that way. I'm not convinced by the survey.

 

[Ignignoct]

I would say that Christians are atheist mostly.

Sure, they belive in one god. but if you consider all the gods they dont belive in I really don't think one more or less is that big of a deal.

This.

I've met a few Christians that don't actually depend on or expect God to do anything at all, ever. Just a childhood habit, as far as I can see the total effect on their lives.

It's all just culture, and when it's like that, it's just an inert little homage to one's upbringing.

 

[caross73]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

You said, paraphrased "if Secular Naturalism is so great, why are there so many criminals?"

Apparently they are more moral, if you are regarding morality as committing fewer crimes.

I was pointing out how crime is still as big a problem as ever in rebuttal to Ignignoct saying that society, as a whole, is moral (At least, that's what I got from him). Which is silly, considering the prisons systems are overflowing.

Ok, I agree. Society is immoral. This cannot be laid at the feet of secularists. This is religions failure as well.

While one could say that even with the state of the prison system , the majority aren't committing crimes, I would say that there are thousands of crimes that go unsolved every year (This isn't CSI, people do get away with things), and that combined with the prison system shows that while there certainly are 'normal' people who don't commit crimes daily, or ever, the amount of people who do commit crimes isn't a number to be easily ignored.

And like I said, people confuse being a certain religion with being raised that way. I'm not convinced by the survey.

In the absence of an authority to say who belongs to a given religion or not, such as baptismal records, you really can't tell. But you don't have to. Its generally acknowledged to be true that being religious has almost no influence on criminal behavior, and atheists generally come from socioeconomic backgrounds that don't predispose ones toward a tendency towards criminal acts.

I would never say atheists HAVE TO BE moral. But I would never say religion can make one moral, either. I would just say there ARE fewer atheists in prisons, as long as we are keeping score.

 

[Baby Tea]

I've met a few Christians that don't actually depend on or expect God to do anything at all, ever. Just a childhood habit, as far as I can see the total effect on their lives.

It's all just culture, and when it's like that, it's just an inert little homage to one's upbringing.

And this totally proves my point on why that survey is a moot point.
If people don't believe in God, or the Bible, but were raised Christian, then they are not Christian. Christian is a believe in God, and Jesus Christ as the messiah. It isn't simply a culture. If you don't believe in God or Jesus, you aren't a Christian! But people say they are anyways, because they think they might still be because they got baptized when they were 6 months old.

False assumption.

 

[Ignignoct]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

You said, paraphrased "if Secular Naturalism is so great, why are there so many criminals?"

Apparently they are more moral, if you are regarding morality as committing fewer crimes.

Oh now I get it, you just misunderstood me.
That paraphrase would be correct if I was using it in an example where everyone was a naturalist.
But I wasn't.
I was pointing out how crime is still as big a problem as ever in rebuttal to Ignignoct saying that society, as a whole, is moral (At least, that's what I got from him). Which is silly, considering the prisons systems are overflowing.
While one could say that even with the state of the prison system , the majority aren't committing crimes, I would say that there are thousands of crimes that go unsolved every year (This isn't CSI, people do get away with things), and that combined with the prison system shows that while there certainly are 'normal' people who don't commit crimes daily, or ever, the amount of people who do commit crimes isn't a number to be easily ignored.

And like I said, people confuse being a certain religion with being raised that way. I'm not convinced by the survey.

LMAO... WHAAAAAT?!!? I was just mentioning that there's plenty of modern godless heathens that don't act a fool without God's interference, making religion in their lives unnecessary!

Hell, I'm terribly aware of my fellow man's follies, but if I meet an intellectual agnostic/atheist that backs up his beliefs despite Pascal's Wager being thrown at him, I'm going to assume he also adheres to a code of conduct equal or greater than the common individual, who shall know be referenced to as a "cow".

I'm insulted that you stump yourself on one part of the counter-argument and leave me cold and alone in responding to the substance =/...

*cries*

Are you doing it on purpose?

Am I not attractive enough for you? Thin enough?

Why can't you love us atheists for who we are on the INSIDE?!?!

 

[Ignignoct]

I've met a few Christians that don't actually depend on or expect God to do anything at all, ever. Just a childhood habit, as far as I can see the total effect on their lives.

It's all just culture, and when it's like that, it's just an inert little homage to one's upbringing.

And this totally proves my point on why that survey is a moot point.
If people don't believe in God, or the Bible, but were raised Christian, then they are not Christian. Christian is a believe in God, and Jesus Christ as the messiah. It isn't simply a culture. If you don't believe in God or Jesus, you aren't a Christian! But people say they are anyways, because they think they might still be because they got baptized when they were 6 months old.

False assumption.

Yes, that was a tangent I was discussing with the guy who was talking about it first.

GO RESPOND TO MY POST TO YOU, DAMN IT!

edit: I'm sorry, that's the caffeine talking.

I've got a laundry-list of errands to run and I'm stuck arguing religion on the internet.

*sigh*

Pray for me to break the addiction to message boards.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I would say that Christians are atheist mostly.

Sure, they belive in one god. but if you consider all the gods they dont belive in I really don't think one more or less is that big of a deal.

Erm...

Surely believing god, any god, automatically kind of disqualifies you from being an atheist?

That is a bit like saying "He isn't really an alcoholic. He doesn't drink all kinds of beer, just loads and loads of vodka".

No, we are not. We have been discussing peoples right to believe whatever they want without scorn, prejudice, belittlement, or abuse. That is how you are missing the point.

My views on secularity are thus:-

There are a LOT of things connected with religion that need to be addressed. God shouldn't be in the law, or in the government, or in the classroom (not taught as fact anyway).

BUAHAHAH!

Well then, we've been in agreement the entire time. Why are you so angry!?!?!

Do you want to spoon for a bit and watch some X-Files? Hmmm?... Maybe get some Reese's PB Cups?

Not angry really. I am just trying to bring some tolerance into play here, (not so much from you but from others). If a religious person tells you that you are going to hell for not believing or that gays are the blight of humanity or other shit then fire at will. If they are minding their own business then those people who are not religious should not attempt to antagonize them. Doing so is extreme hypocrisy.

Remember that there are a huge number of secular religious people [http://www.rcrc.org/programs/clergy_resources.cfm], as well as people like this [http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html]. It isn't a case of "us vs them", it is a case of extremists vs people who agree to work together and try to lead their own lives without trying to push their own opinions onto other people. And all creeds (including atheism) has extremists in its ranks.

By the way I am partial to chipsticks or cornflakes.

 

[Baby Tea]

CT, I usually stood by you in a lot of things...

By the way I am partial to chipsticks or cornflakes.

But THAT over Reese's Peanut butter cups is just unforgivable.
You cad.

 

[Baby Tea]

LMAO... WHAAAAAT?!!? I was just mentioning that there's plenty of modern godless heathens that don't act a fool without God's interference, making religion in their lives unnecessary!

Well the, in that case, I'd say that morality isn't the reason that people turn to a faith. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. Not because a faith can't be a source of morality, but because it isn't shopping for a worldview that suits what you want or like.
It's a recognition of a truth. I couldn't not be a Christian if I tried, and there are others of different faiths who would say the same for themselves.

I'm on the same page as cuddly tomato in that I'm looking for just some respect and understanding for people with different faiths. I don't mind what faith you are, we don't have to agree to get along and live together.

 

[salbarragan]

The highest level of morality is attained by determining them for yourself, not having some omnipresent parent figure wagging their finger at you from a distance saying that if you don't do what they tell you, they will punish you forever. Keeping that in mind, I am okay with some people needing religion to let them lead their day to day life. If the only thing keeping someone from going on a killing rampage is the belief that some "God" will punish him, than by all means, let that man believe in some ultimate power. Religion truly is the opiate of the masses. It is a crutch for people who are too afraid to open up and see what the world is really like. A crutch. Let's think about that word for a minute. The word crutch conjures up images of someone who is lame. Someone who under their own power, can not function as regular person. They need something extra to help them get through the day. Otherwise, they would be in bed or hobbling along. If you feel that your God is the only thing to keep you going in this horrible world, than your God is in fact a crutch. And lets face it, an omnipotent power probably has better things to do than to carry every lame person in this world.

Being an Atheist means that I understand that at the end of my life their will be nothing. I don't even get the benefit of a game over screen. Their will be no judge but myself on how well my life was. I want to die saying that I lived every day, loved everyday, fought everyday for what I cared about. I am not waiting for someone to reward me later because my reward IS my life. I will die not waiting to live in another world but being happy that I had the opportunity to live in this one. That is what living life in the moment is about. To be honest, if I was an omnipotent being who truly cared about His creations, that is how I would want them all to live.

 

[Ignignoct]

LMAO... WHAAAAAT?!!? I was just mentioning that there's plenty of modern godless heathens that don't act a fool without God's interference, making religion in their lives unnecessary!

Well the, in that case, I'd say that morality isn't the reason that people turn to a faith. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. Not because a faith can't be a source of morality, but because it isn't shopping for a worldview that suits what you want or like.
It's a recognition of a truth. I couldn't not be a Christian if I tried, and there are others of different faiths who would say the same for themselves.

I'm on the same page as cuddly tomato in that I'm looking for just some respect and understanding for people with different faiths. I don't mind what faith you are, we don't have to agree to get along and live together.

We're very similar, you and I.

Knowing what I know, seeing what I've seen, I couldn't believe in Christianity without some divine inspiration (or an answered prayer).

I know what it's like to not be able to believe the other side, but I'm more interested in your character and actions. Not really, since this is the internet, but if we were hanging out at the same workplace/college I would, y'know?

So to sum it up:

Beef's been squashed, everyone go back to your homes. Nothing to see here. Atheists will acknowledge the goodness of Christians who are kind and understanding, and vice-versa.

 

[Codeknight]

Personally I like how vague the bible is: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Wow great use of description, no?

Some of the laws provided by the bible are kinda funny too:
-If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
-For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it mustbe put to death.
-Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

and of course the funny contradictions:
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'It is because I saw God face to face, and my life was preserved.'
Exodus 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.

In case you cant tell I am very atheist; however I mean no offense, which seems to be taken often, to those who are religious. I accept that others want or need to believe that that they are being watched over and have somewhere to go after death.

 

[Baby Tea]

Beef's been squashed, everyone go back to your homes. Nothing to see here. Atheists will acknowledge the goodness of Christians who are kind and understanding, and vice-versa.

Good to know that there are people who can say that and mean it!
Cheers!

P.S. I want some of the Peanut Butter Cups...they are my favourite.