Atheists and Theists are both right

[edinflames]

Oh fun fun a prideful Atheist who believes he's right!
The fact that you are here to say that theists are wrong proves that you are wrong

No, it doesn't. That's the kind of logic which argues that those scientists who choose to be atheists (something like 90% of them) are only doing so because they are sinners that deny the word of god. ^_^

No, thats the kind of logic that says that to be a painting there must be a painter or there is music so there is an artist not a random explosion made into to music.
You obviously can't read or never learned how to put sentences together in the right order because I don't remember even typing the word sin anywhere in that post or implying That you are a sinner only that you're wrong and prideful.

Well here's your challenge prove I'm wrong with out saying a single word about evolution or the big bang

OK, lets look at European history.

The most ruthlessly efficient system of control ever created was Christianity. The Roman Emperor Constantine saw a way to turn a small Nazarene (pre-establishment christians) sect called the 'Gnostics' into the state religion of the Empire in order to control the populations within. Read about the Council of Nicea, where the Christian doctrines were laid out by Roman politicians.

How about the Dark Ages? Know why they were called the Dark Ages? Because there is little to no history from this time, because all reading and writing was performed only by church clergymen. Take away people's ability to read and write and you take away their ability to resist the Church's intstructions.

The owner of the largest brothel in history was a pope.

The crusades - the muslims going to battle singing 'god is great' while the christians go to battle shouting "will of god, will of god", but neither side could understand what the other was saying. A sick joke if I've ever seen one.

All of this, allowed by a just god and his right hand man Jesus? If god does exist, he probably hate both of us, and especially hates those people with the crosses round their necks who apparently totally missed the point of what Jesus was saying and doing by focusing on how he died.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I can prove god exists right now: The Platypus.
Yes. Yes. And yes. (I just preemptively answered all your questions in reverse order.)

So God is an omnipotent prankster hiding humorous animals around the world for us to find? I guess that's why 'he' created marijuana and republicans...

I think your evidence comes up a little short of proving this theory.

Why wouldn't he be? Think about evolution.
Think about all it's principles. We evolve, to fill a niche.
What niche or evolutionary purpose does a platypus serve? Or a girrafe? Or a turtle?

Sorry you're misunderstanding it, animals are not ment to fill a niche, that would imply a goal, something wich evolution does not have. Animals do not 'serve' a niche, they're simply pressed into one.

Ever heard of corruption? What? people can use stuff to their own advantage!? Even stuff that's not meant to be used this way Oh mee oh my! i thouht humans were perfect people who never jumped at a chance to have power but i must have wrong, i apologize (That was sarcasism since you probably didn't get that)

And Have you ever read the Bible? i bet not but it makes it abundantly clear that there is a Devil that doesn't like God's interests. And I bet you've never understood this either but In god's word he makes it quite clear that He doesn't like his people dead.

All you've proved to me is that people can be bad and can lie by saying they love God when really they love power and frankly i already knew this.

Problem is: apperantly God allows it, allowed the Holocaust, allowed the Crusades. Now ofcourse I'm not blaiming God for those things. They're ultimatly done by humans, but God didn't stop him. Now the answer I often get is that humans have to learn from their mistakes. Now ofcourse, I get that, but my problem with it is that apperantly the lesson is more important then the lives of the millions of jews sacrificed to teach us this lesson. And I thought all life was equally important? Guess not.
Example: A dad (God is called 'Father' pretty often) sees his kid walking with a loaded gun to the playground. Should the dad let his son be and shoot other kids or maybe himself with the gun so he learns that guns are very dangerous? Is the lesson more important then the lives of those other children and even his own kid? What I'm adressing here btw, is not the existance of such a deity, but rather it's 'worshipability'. A discussion about the existance of such a deity would be pretty pointless, although honestly that depends on wich deity with what 'abilities' (can't think of a better word) you're talking about.

Anyway, 'bout "God" him/her/itself, problem with discussions if often that one person means something else with "God" then his opponent. I think that's 1 of the reasons why a lot of discussions end in scrambles.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I can prove god exists right now: The Platypus.
Yes. Yes. And yes. (I just preemptively answered all your questions in reverse order.)

So God is an omnipotent prankster hiding humorous animals around the world for us to find? I guess that's why 'he' created marijuana and republicans...

I think your evidence comes up a little short of proving this theory.

Why wouldn't he be? Think about evolution.
Think about all it's principles. We evolve, to fill a niche.
What niche or evolutionary purpose does a platypus serve? Or a girrafe? Or a turtle?

Sorry you're misunderstanding it, animals are not ment to fill a niche, that would imply a goal, something wich evolution does not have. Animals do not 'serve' a niche, they're simply pressed into one.

Ever heard of corruption? What? people can use stuff to their own advantage!? Even stuff that's not meant to be used this way Oh mee oh my! i thouht humans were perfect people who never jumped at a chance to have power but i must have wrong, i apologize (That was sarcasism since you probably didn't get that)

And Have you ever read the Bible? i bet not but it makes it abundantly clear that there is a Devil that doesn't like God's interests. And I bet you've never understood this either but In god's word he makes it quite clear that He doesn't like his people dead.

All you've proved to me is that people can be bad and can lie by saying they love God when really they love power and frankly i already knew this.

Problem is: apperantly God allows it, allowed the Holocaust, allowed the Crusades. Now ofcourse I'm not blaiming God for those things. They're ultimatly done by humans, but God apperantly allowed it. Now the answer I often get is that humans have to learn from their mistakes. Now ofcourse, I get that, but my problem with it is that apperantly the lesson is more important then the lives of the millions of jews sacrificed to teach us this lesson. And I thought all life was equally important? Guess not.

Anyway, 'bout "God" him/her/itself, problem with discussions if often that one person means something else with "God" then his opponent. I think that's 1 of the reasons why a lot of discussions end in scrambles.

Again have you even read the bible? apparently not and you don't read my posts either. Free will is why In God's word it says that he warns people when bad stuff will happen and that after that it's their free will whether or not to believe and listen to him. And no God doesn't cause the bad things if you can read you would have seen my post about the devil and how he causes bad things

Yes I know, but that would eliminate a couple of quality's from God: not all powerfull and not omnipotent. Afterall, if he's omnipotent, he saw all of this coming, the whole future would be set in stone. The all powerfull one is obvious ofcourse: he can't stop the devil. I already sad that I don't blaim God for all those bad things, I think it's equally ridiculous to say that the devil caused those things. That would álso kind of eliminate free will: the devil can do what he wishes. No, I blaim Hitler for the Holocaust.
And as I sad, a dad warns his 6 year old kid that he can't touch the gun because it's dangerous. But still the kid gets to gun to play with it, endangering his little friends and himself. Would you approve if the father would let the kid go on, saying that it's the kid's free will to learn from the warning or not? And if the kid shoots himself, or some friends, can the father just say "well the devil caused my kid to do this!" The father had the power to stop the kid, but didn't and now blaims something else. Would be a totally different thing if the father couldn't stop the kid, but as I sad that would cancel God's (if you stay with the analogy) all-powerfullness.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Most Christians like to argue the fact that God is sovereign when in fact if you were to read the Bible you would find this is untrue. When Adam Ate from the tree He transferred the dominion(or ownership) of the planet to the Devil which is where most Christians plug there ears and say blah blah blah while they suck their thumbs.

And To your second point You could almost say God is like warning tape or a warning sign if you choose to ignore it That's your fault and unlike what you might think God isn't the ignoring father you think he prolly is. In exodus the isrealites decided not to obey God and so God punished him. In our case things are a bit more serious then a gun which probably isn't even loaded and being stupid enough to ignore God's warning and then being hurt or maimed or killed is your problem.

I didn't say the devil Caused everything just that God doesn't cause bad things. you said yourself Hitler ultimately caused the holicaust but i believe there was some spiritual influence in there somewhere

O yes, Hitler was a devout Catholic and thought he was doing what God wanted. But ofcourse that's not the point.
Anyway, to your second point to my second point, that means that God apperantly thinks that the innocent deaths are justified. The friends of the little kid with the gun could barely do anything, if the kid was running towards them, tripped, the gun fired and killed another kid. The victim had nóthing to do with the stupid act of the kid, why is his life suddenly less important then the lesson the shooter apperantly has to learn. Same with the millions of jews killed by Hitler, they can't help being jewish. Sure it may be true that God would indeed be such a creature, but that would pretty much eliminate another quality: all-loving. The life of the kid killed by the gun is less important then the lesson the other kid needs to learn. Innocent deaths (millions of them) are acceptable to God to teach other humans lessons. All life is equal worthy? I don't think so, at least it doesn't look like that.

 

[MortisLegio]

...
:^'
I got nothing

 

[caross73]

You don't think people sent by God tried to stop Hitler? speak him the word and tell him to change his ways? God didn't just sit back and say 'screw dose ppl'

"Dear God, for five thousand years we have been your chosen people. Enough! Choose another one now."
-- prayer composed by Emil Dorian during the Nazi Occupation of Romania

In my opinion, God didn't save those people for the same reason Santa Claus didn't.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

O yes, Hitler was a devout Catholic and thought he was doing what God wanted. But ofcourse that's not the point.

Hitler said:-

"I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

Source; Hitler: A Study in Tyranny by Allan Bullock.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Read my post about corruption on the other pages.

You mean that God turned the earth over to the Devil, and thus is no longer in control?

And you must be stupid because the reason for the gun case is to stop people anyone who bypasses it after hearing the warning has taken that risk whether they trip or deliberately shoot someone is not gun cases fault.

Ehhhh, and now in proper english please? I didn't really understand that, sorry. The 'gun case' was a little kid, 6 years old, who thought his father's gun was fun to play with. By accident he killed a little friend of his. It's an analogy against some of the arguments I hear why God apperantly let millions of innocents die.

I don't know where you learned to read but i never said God kills to teach lesson. God was not trying to teach Hitler a lesson you idiot. the jews were Gods chosen people if you didn't put that together and like i said anyone can say they did stuff in the name of God.

I can say the exact same thing about you: did I ever say God killed them? No, Hitler did, Pol Pot did, Mao did, just to name a few. My point is that God apperantly allowed millions of them being killed. He allowed the jews to be massacred, I know he didn't do it, Hitler did.

You don't think people sent by God tried to stop Hitler? speak him the word and tell him to change his ways? God didn't just sit back and say 'screw dose ppl'

Maybe, we don't know since we can't check if God tried that, but the fact is even if he tried he failed. Why didn't he do it himself it ment so much to him? Everyone knows humans aren't perfect and fail a lot, why did he take the risk to send people to do the work for him. The people failed, and millions perished. If God would be almighty, why didn't he do it himself? Or isn't he almighty?

O yes, Hitler was a devout Catholic and thought he was doing what God wanted. But ofcourse that's not the point.

Hitler said:-

"I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

Source; Hitler: A Study in Tyranny by Allan Bullock.

A well, even if it would be true, as I sad: it's not the point really, it doesn't really matter.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

A well, even if it would be true, as I sad: it's not the point really, it doesn't really matter.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to dispell the misconception that Hitler was a Catholic.

 

[caross73]

A well, even if it would be true, as I sad: it's not the point really, it doesn't really matter.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to dispell the misconception that Hitler was a Catholic.

Someone who blames the Jews for killing the Savior? Catholics, Christians in general, can believe weird things. I'm not sure that one quote dispells the notion that Hitler at least paid lip service to the Christian God. Politicians use God to their ends.

And then we're going to get to the No True Scottsman fallacy.

 

[caross73]

Here:

Biographer John Toland wrote of Hitler's religion: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god -- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty."

Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

 

[Cowabungaa]

A well, even if it would be true, as I sad: it's not the point really, it doesn't really matter.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to dispell the misconception that Hitler was a Catholic.

Someone who blames the Jews for killing the Savior? Catholics, Christians in general, can believe weird things. I'm not sure that one quote dispells the notion that Hitler at least paid lip service to the Christian God. Politicians use God to their ends.

And then we're going to get to the No True Scottsman fallacy.

Do they blaim jews openly nowadays? And is there even a true "Christian God", I doubt that. Heck just look at the Westboro Baptist Church, and compare their god to the one from the Pope.

A well, even if it would be true, as I sad: it's not the point really, it doesn't really matter.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to dispell the misconception that Hitler was a Catholic.

Sure thing, thought he wrote something like that in Mein Kampf, at least that he thought doing God's work. *shrugs* O well, I couldn't care less, even if it would be true.

 

[caross73]

A well, even if it would be true, as I sad: it's not the point really, it doesn't really matter.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to dispell the misconception that Hitler was a Catholic.

Someone who blames the Jews for killing the Savior? Catholics, Christians in general, can believe weird things.

Do they nowadays?

I didn't make the mistake that ALL Christians believe that. But certainly even today some still do. Nobody is stopping them from it, even if Holy Rome says that they shouldn't. So, just because someone believes the Jews bear responsibility for murdering Christ, doesn't mean they can't/couldn't have been also a Catholic, particularly in the 1930s/1940s.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Ever heard the name jesus christ? theres your answer he did all he could my friend his work is complete.

But now i must depart Pm if you actually care and i'd be glad to send you in depth answers on all of this but right now I'm waisting my time and even if you did realize how wrong you are you wouldn't repent because you're pride is so God damn massive. If all you want to do is argue both of us have better things to do with our time but like i said if you actually want to learn just PM me.

Sure I'll PM you, Jesus lived almost 2 millenia before Hitler, pretty wierd to say that that would be the solution. Pretty funny to see how you plainly say I'm wrong, and that my "pride" is so massive. I'm just asking questions, what's so arrogant about that? Anyway, I'll just PM you.

that. But certainly even today some still do. Nobody is stopping them from it, even if Holy Rome says that they shouldn't. So, just because someone believes the Jews bear responsibility for murdering Christ, doesn't mean they can't/couldn't have been also a Catholic, particularly in the 1930s/1940s.

O definatly, that's true, but it doesn't really matter. As I sad, just look at the Westboro Baptist Church, they're not really representative for the entire christian faith though, nor would people who still beleive all the jews are responsible for murdering Christ.