Autistic UK Hacker faces being shipped out to the US.

[Borrowed Time]

I feel really sorry for this guy, he's clearly not that dangerous - in fact the Americans are lucky in a way that it was a middle-aged man that had a penchant for aliens instead of say, an actual terrorist with serious malicious intent.

That's what I was thinking, they should pay the guy for pointing out the hole in their security, now at least they can fix it before a terrorist exploits it.

Do you hire a guy who breaks into your home for no reason other then to look at your stuff to put in a security system? I sure as hell wouldn't.

That's one reason why people hire a hacker, they're security experts.

Personally, I'd tell him it's either he helps find/patch the holes or he goes to jail. I'm sure as hell not going to pay someone who wrongs me even if it were for my benefit in the long run.

 

[jasoncyrus]

He was competant enough to manage to hack into US government computers, hence competant enough to understand the consequences.

Here's where the major problem is.

Aspergers/Autism means that you tend to have a Savantic knowledge of certain things (like hacking) but minimal knowledge/comprehension of others (like legality).

Simply put, he won't understand the difference between what he's done and hacking into a mate's computer.

If they ship him to the US, they may as well put the pine box with him, because he'll be dead in 5 years. If the flight alone doesn't kill him or send him catatonic.

Reasoning? Aspergers/Autism worst fear is emotional change/turmoil. A military escort is enough to give him heart failure, and if those troops don't know what to expect from his certain "fit", they'll shoot him.

This is what ranqualisers are for. They'll dope him upto the eyeballs first.

 

[ParCheesy]

This is ridiculous, I could care less if he gets brought to the US...but people are actually debating whether or not this guy should be punished at all even.

"Durp durp no malicious intent or damage done"

So breaking and entering into, say, a bank, wouldn't get someone in trouble?

He. broke. a. law.

I love how everyone is acting high and mighty too...
"America's just trying to save face, they're so embarrassed that they suck"
Couldn't be the government's actually worried about it and is taking action. Even if it may be a little over the top.

And who the hell knows, maybe they are bringing him over to have him help. God help him if he has a "fit", they might just get scared that he's signaling his terrorist brethren and kill him...God

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

It's still a matter of at least trespassing.

Trespassing isn't worth extradition though.

I'm also wondering where everyone is getting all this information about Asperger Syndrome meaning that he has limited control over his actions when it comes to ideas of consequence? All the research I've done about it has said nothing of the sort.

I get most of the National Autistic Society's newsletters. If you look closely I said that he had limited ideas of the consequences rather than control of his actions. Difference.

I'm sorry that it fell short of your immense brain power.

Passive aggression doesn't suit you or the forums, let's at least keep it civil.

as far as i know, he didn't wipe any data and he certainly didn't apologize.

The Americans claimed that he had deleted files according to some of the news reports, and I'm pretty sure he apologised as soon as they caught him.

finally, the american legal system does not include "beating the shit out of" people in any form.

Funny, Guatanamo Bay would seem to point the opposite way.

 

[thiosk]

Are you kidding? They don't want to put him in prison, they want to take him to Area 51, show him the aliens, then put him to work catching other hackers.

 

[Lexodus]

Its not a serious disability he has.

He was competant enough to manage to hack into US government computers, hence competant enough to understand the consequences.

A three-year-old (or a hamster) can hack into US government computers.

 

[Saskwach]

Some people are failing to see the question at hand. The question isn't whether he should be punished or how much. The question isn't whether the man should go to the US and get 60 years or stay in the UK and get something reasonable. That's the fallacy of the excluded middle [http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/excluded_middle.htm] (that he might receive some lesser sentence is ignored). The question is whether he should be put on trial in America or the UK.
Looking at maximum sentences is misleading anyway. In many US states the maximum penalty for murder is death. That doesn't mean that the death penalty automatically follows murder.


Sometimes I feel on forums like I'm trying to make logical arguments while everyone else has abandoned such petty trinkets, but in this case I'm writing it out clearly.
The argument is not whether he should get 60 years. It's whether the US has the right to try him and determine what punishment he deserves. If you are planning to argue that 60 years is unfair in this case you are missing the point.

A few lines of reasoning I'd like to take on:

1)Crime was committed in UK, therefore trial in UK.
I don't understand net jurisdiction, but until someone comes on who does does, I think we should all clamp down on this.

actually the jurisdiction comes in where the servers are located, hence why they try and get russian and romanian hackers to come to the states after they break into places

so him being extradited is 100% correct and proper

it's happened many times before and it's worked in reverse once or twice too

Sounds fair. The rules for jurisdiction should obviously be a bit different for the net than for the physical world.

 

[veloper]

The US should have been grateful for the nice warning.

If some moron looking for UFOs of all things, can hack into their crappy computer systems, then any 12 yr old script kiddie can and they do alot more damage.

So you personally know the guy? Just because he believes the US has info on UFOs doesn't mean he can't learn how to properly hack a server.

Autism is so overrated. He cannot have been more than a fair hacker.

The north koreans, the chinese and the iranians prolly had crackers in those computers a long time ago already.

Poor data security equals an open invitation. What's the US gonna do, call out for an arrest of the chinese government?

This has been a too mild object lesson for NASA, so give the autistic brit a cookie.

 

[dwightsteel]

"Hey, US Government? Here's my middle finger."

He committed a crime in Britain, as a British citizen, as such he should be tried in Britain, as a British citizen

.

A bit of an oversimplification, and definitely crass, but I mostly agree. Let's look at this from a flipped perspective: What if he was a US citizen and had UK secrets? I already know that the we wouldn't extradite him over to Britain. We'd slap him on the wrist, and tell him not to do it again. I say we should let him be punished in the UK.

 

[barryween]

Mentally underdeveloped or not, he has no right to hack into the US governments computers, no matter what he was looking for. He could have dangerous files and be a threat to us and even if he DOES have Asperger's syndrome he should know better. So I think the US is doing something that needs to be done, I mean, he could have done some major damage had he wanted to.

Being mentally handicapped doesn't give someone the right to rob a bank, so why is looking at government documents any different?

yes Yes YES!!!
I agree. I hate when people try to claim it was the mental disabilities fault, not the persons fault. The laws the law, people!

Mental handicaps do not give anyone the right to break the law, but when that handicap causes them to not be able to stop, that is when it should be taken into consideration.

Well yeah, if they are doing something like attacking someone. But hacking the USA's computer? Who doesn't know that that's wrong.

He admited he was wrong, he also admited he wanted to get caught because he COULDN'T stop. Yes he deserves punishment, but the fact he couldn't stop should be taken into consideration. As should the fact that he didn't do harm and America have no right to punish him for being in the position to do damage and not doing it. If thats how it works then every human on Earth needs to be jailed for "possible murder"

Okay those are two different things. I think the US should be able to punish him, but I do agree that 60 years is WAY too harsh.

Mentally underdeveloped or not, he has no right to hack into the US governments computers, no matter what he was looking for. He could have dangerous files and be a threat to us and even if he DOES have Asperger's syndrome he should know better. So I think the US is doing something that needs to be done, I mean, he could have done some major damage had he wanted to.

Being mentally handicapped doesn't give someone the right to rob a bank, so why is looking at government documents any different?

yes Yes YES!!!
I agree. I hate when people try to claim it was the mental disabilities fault, not the persons fault. The laws the law, people!

Mentally underdeveloped or not, he has no right to hack into the US governments computers, no matter what he was looking for. He could have dangerous files and be a threat to us and even if he DOES have Asperger's syndrome he should know better. So I think the US is doing something that needs to be done, I mean, he could have done some major damage had he wanted to.

I agree

Thank you. I hate how these people are like "BUT HEZ GUUD AMURICA JUS DONT WANNA LUZE FACE!!!"
People.
He hacked into the US governments' computers.
The computers that hold top secret information on highly sensitive stuff!
That is VERY illegal and basically anyone who is coherent knows that.
Don't even give me that "It's not his fault" shit. The Asperger's has NOTHING to do with it.
If he weren't mentally challenged you would all be saying "SEND HIM OVER TO AMERICA! THEY CAN GIVE HIM HELL!" and if he were living in the USA and did this to the UK government computers you all would be saying "SEND HIM OVER HERE! WE'LL GIVE HIM HELL!"

No kidding, I wholeheartedly agree with these statements. Besides, who is to say he's really looking at aliens? He could be like a kid saying he didn't do, or saying his sister did it, could very well be an excuse to avoid trouble. I wouldn't doubt that too much, give him the fair trial though, it was a problem in the US, it should be handled in the US.

Yes, I agree. The only problem I can think of is the fact that The US will be WAY too harsh (which is funny, killing a child over here get's parole and/or a few years, hacking into a computer get's a possible 60) and the UK will be WAY too easy on him.
But you bring up a good point, one I thought in the back of my head, he may just be trying to divert blame. How do we know for sure he wasn't trying to hack something else. If he can't control himself from hacking it, who's to say that he CAN control himself to tell the truth?

How often do first time offenders actually get the maximum sentence?
Look up the law and find out what the minimum is for one count of the crime he is being accused of. The US takes a shotgun approach to prosecution. We want to lock someone up for capital murder, we charge him with capital murder 3 or 4 times, murder 1 a few times, murder 2 a few times, a couple of manslaughters, some assaults, some negligent homicides.... you get the picture?

We then instruct the jury that if they convict on X that they must find the person not guilty of Y,Z, and all the others. 60 years is the maximum for everything he is being charged with, his lawyer will plea bargain it down to one count of something that will get him probation or a 1 year sentence in club fed (where they have cable and eat for free.)

Anyone who says our prisoners are horribly mistreated is blind as a damn bat. Prisoners in the US are treated better than the disabled, the poor and the military.

Jails and prisons are REQUIRED by law to provide 3 hot nutritious meals a day, as well as exercise equipment and time to do the exercising. They must provide at least one television per x number of prisoners with cable (the prison selects the channel though.) They are provided with full medical coverage and a library, job training (not for any GOOD jobs but anyway) and rehab.
If they don't have a diploma or GED they attend classes to get them, if they can't read they must be given the opportunity to learn.

If a prisoner is thought to be in danger or to be a danger to others they keep the prisoner away from other people.

The poor in this country eat sometimes as little as once every other day because the government can't afford to help them out after taking care of the prisoners. We have 50,000,000 uninsured people that can't get health care until they go to an emergency room.

Those prisoners aren't being mistreated, people just freak out because of Guantanamo. Those weren't prisoners of the US legal system, they were P.O.W.s.

Hell, to be honest, if that guy were to go to prison, and the others find out he has Aspergers, some of them will most likely protect him from other prisoners.

Hell, I never thought of it like that, I totally agree. If that's the case, BRING 'EM OVER HERE!

 

[Sanaj]

I think part of the bigger problem is they're looking at him and openly accusing him of terrorism.

They're pretty much painting him as a member of Al Quaeda, how the hell is he going to get a fair trial?

Defining Gary McKinnon's as a terrorist and over-trumping the alleged charges of damages in order to guarantee his extradition...is rather underhanded.

Trespassing shouldn't be worth extradition.

I used to deal with a couple of people with Asperger's Syndrome, and forgive me, but damn they were annoying, but the facts are that they don't see the world as we do, and some don't associate certain acts with punishment, and certainly, the internet as a whole is just a huge library of fascinating stuff to discover, and I imagine he thought those servers may contain really interesting stuff, not 'plans to destroy the whitehouse' just 'ohh that's interesting, I'll look'.

Get him some professional help and care, and get him helping the UK and the US to plug their security holes.

Another problem is the common misconceptions surrounding Asperger's Syndrome, Autism and any mental illness.
Many people still don't consider any illness or disease that isn't physical to be real.
However, popular opinion doesn't make that nonsense true.
Many people suffer from chronic conditions that they had to deal with for their entire lives.

A lack of understanding between actions and punishment in a person is sufficient grounds I think in order to protect him from extradition.
It's quite sad that it doesn't seem to work that way.

 

[krement]

He deserves punishment, however the US will put him to trial as a terrorist as he breached their security.

If tried in the UK, he will be punished but more likely under the breach of data protection, rather than intent to attack the American military.

I personally favour the latter as the way Americans treat terror suspects is wrong to begin with, let alone someone with Asperger's.

 

[ScruffyTheJanitor]

even if he DOES have Asperger's syndrome he should know better.

I would like to point out words of fail here. People with apergers DON'T know better. It's not because they are stupid, but more because they don't think on the same level as people without aspergers. I myself have aspergers, and thankfully, i'm not a serious case and thus would be well aware hacking american security isn't a smart move. I have my oddities.. still do, unaware that they are odd. I've overcome a number of wierd childhood habits through age and experience.

However, the serious cases aren't so lucky, and their inhibitions take longer to adapt to todays society. It's a spectrum disorder, with many varying cases. This just happens to be an extreme case.

I with gaycakes here. The americans should consider themselves lucky that it wasn't someone with malicious intent, and should learn from this, that their super secure system has a few flaws if ONE man can hack it. Fix the damn system, and have the guy get help. People that out of sync with society need help from someone else.

 

[Captain Pancake]

I hardly think it's right that we should give up one of our own citizens for what is pretty much just a misunderstanding, whereas the US kept british citizens in guantanamo bay and refused to allow US to judge OUR OWN. The U.S., for all it's wonderful things, really fails in politics. maybe that's why you don't like political humor?

 

[The Maddest March Hare]

"Hey, US Government? Here's my middle finger."

He committed a crime in Britain, as a British citizen, as such he should be tried in Britain, as a British citizen

Exactly, it wasn't on U.S. soil, therefore it is not a crime of their concern.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

[whereas this guy simply hacked the network to look for what? HUGELY IMPORTANT state secrets? Nuclear Launch codes? No. UFO files. Are UFO's so important or 'dangerous' that it should have, even if it is just a maximum, a possible of 60 years in prison?

what he was looking for doesn't matter, it's the fact he did the crime. i mean if you break into a musem to look for something, they don't care what you're looking for but looking but that you broke in

Not to mention that most ppl here appears to be MASSIVELY downplaying the effect of Aspergers Syndrome, very serious autism.

actually people with Asperger syndrome can function very well in society, it's not like autism, it's on the far end of the spectrum. i think too many people confuse it with something that's overly debilitating. it can but not but usually, even the doctor that examined him said he wasn't that bad

 

[Laughing Man]

Anyway, I believe he should be extrad... sent to American courts because he did break into America's servers. I don't belive he should be given the maximum probably 5 years max.

I agree, I am not saying give him the 60years I am saying he committed the crime against America so they have every right to process him through their justice system. You can only hope that their justice system is intelligent enough to take in to account exactly what it was he did and not just go all flaky.

Not... quite... First of all ObL's plans resulted in the deaths of ppl, whereas this guy simply hacked the network to look for what? HUGELY IMPORTANT state secrets? Nuclear Launch codes? No. UFO files. Are UFO's so important or 'dangerous' that it should have, even if it is just a maximum, a possible of 60 years in prison?

You see why do people read things in to posts. The nature of the crime and the consequences of it were not the thing I was pointing out. I used the 9/11 attacks because it is quite an easy example. I was using the comparative that the attack was masterminded by an individual from outwith the US with the consequences occurring on US soil. The nature or magnitude of the crime and the resultant punishment is something for the US courts to decide and as I stated above I would hope that the courts would be intelligent enough to see that this guy didn't do any real damage or pose and real threat. Whatever way you slice it the Americans have the right to try him for the crime committed against them the discussion on the magnitude of the punishment is something for after the trial has been done.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Funny, Guatanamo Bay would seem to point the opposite way.

Funny, that was Bush's retarded pet. Obama shut it down. IT IS GONE.

No, he hasn't.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8062017.stm

 

[barryween]

even if he DOES have Asperger's syndrome he should know better.

I would like to point out words of fail here. People with apergers DON'T know better. It's not because they are stupid, but more because they don't think on the same level as people without aspergers. I myself have aspergers, and thankfully, i'm not a serious case and thus would be well aware hacking american security isn't a smart move. I have my oddities.. still do, unaware that they are odd. I've overcome a number of wierd childhood habits through age and experience.

However, the serious cases aren't so lucky, and their inhibitions take longer to adapt to todays society. It's a spectrum disorder, with many varying cases. This just happens to be an extreme case.

I with gaycakes here. The americans should consider themselves lucky that it wasn't someone with malicious intent, and should learn from this, that their super secure system has a few flaws if ONE man can hack it. Fix the damn system, and have the guy get help. People that out of sync with society need help from someone else.

Okay, i get what you mean, but unless there have been updates, I would still like to stress, WE DON'T KNOW HE DIDN'T HAVE OTHER INTENTIONS! Has he taken a lie detector test yet? Just because he has asperger's doesn't mean he drank some truth serum that makes it so he can tell no lie. It doesn't matter if he has asperger's or not, the law is the law and HE, just like anyone else, has to follow it and there have been many other people who have lied about the full extent of their crimes. He maybe no different. 60 years is too much but it is doubtful we as Americans are SO evil as to give him the full 60. He did something wrong towards AMERICANS so AMERICANS need to teach him that's wrong and he needs to be punished for his ill actions.