Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.

[Hasido]

Damn I can't think of anything to contribute, so I will share some thoughts on the whole Stormcloaks/Empire thing people keep bringing up.

K, so, you've got the people who were about to put you to death just for being in the wrong spot, have banned Talos worship, and answer to the Thalmor. But they are (supposedly) biding their time to get more powerful to fight off the Thalmor (or something)

on the other side, you've got a bunch of racists who are causing lots of trouble, attempted to use a possible end of the world as leverage in an argument, with a leader who may or may not be unconsciously working for the Thalmor. But they are trying to liberate skyrim from the Thalmor oppression, and lift the Ban on Talos worship.

My thoughts have been this: Why can't I take a third option? Never mind the fact that I have hit the singularity and have the ability to kill anything by so much as brushing against it, enough people owe me favors that I could raise my own small army. Also: best buds with a dragon.

So, all I need to do is just take over the world and all will be good.

Or go the psychotic rout and systematically kill everything that will stay dead in all of skyrim.

 

[Goofguy]

snip
"I love the Imperial Legion"
snip

Did you not find yourself having a conflict of interest when you got to the climax of the Dark Brotherhood questline, though?

 

[PinkiePyro]

The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability. All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves. Ulfric Stormcloak is the real bad guy.

not re

yea I never got why people sided with the storm cloaks, they are a bunch of racists that want to kick the other races out of skyrim and ulfric just killed the king and hence claims the throne. The empire doesn't even like the group of elitist high elves they just use them to piss of the storm cloaks.

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

But until Ulfric started getting all pissy about it the ban on Talos worship wasn't enforced. It was an in name only ban that would have been lifted in a short time anyway after the empire had rebuilt its forces and invaded the Sommerset Isles.

Stormcloaks are still merely asserting their right to self determination for Skyrim. It's already been mentioned that how Ulfric took the throne was entirely within the law of Skyrim. As the legitimate ruler of the land he has every right to break away from the Empire, if he feels it is no longer in the interest of Skyrim.

I certainly didn't agree with everything the Stormcloaks stood for, but the Empire was trying to impose its will on a foreign land, even if that was at the behest of the Altmer.

Read: Iraq 2003 - America>Britain. I didn't support my government because on balance it was just acting at the behest of Bush. I certainly didn't support Saddam Hussein either, but that didn't make it right to invade.

as skyrim is my first elderscrolls game and so I don't know all the lore
but in my opinion the whole thing is one big grey area
yea the stormcloaks are jerks but apart from name calling there is not much rascium I mean no one is getting lynched.. I liken the stormcloaks to the guy in school who wears punk clothing but doesnt really do anything

the emperals are a bunch of self entitled jerks and incompatant but they mean well

as far as im concerned the thalmor are the real villain and go out of my way to kill them and place their naked bodys in silly positions >

 

[rekabdarb]

Spoiler: This man right here

Can't really call him a game character, but he was in a few.

Always.

Sorry but Snape is evil. If Harry had not been the son of a woman that Snape had some sort of psychotic obsession over you think he would have lifted a finger to help him? I doubt it. Remember during Voldermorts first rise he willingly joined the death eaters and according to Rowling if Lily hadn't been killed by Voldemort Snape would have been a loyal Death eater to the end.

Yes but you must realize. J.K. Rowling is TERRIBLE author. A good story teller, but terrible author. Snape would of been a MUCH more interesting character if he was a 'good guy' the entire time. (since you know Dumbledore was a god seer anyways) it should of been planned that Snape kills him, then feeds the order of the ph... wait that order was 'disbanded' never mind. Fucking useless plot device from the 5th book.

While about 1% of you people [and the 1% of people who will actually read this comment instead of just the first page] will understand this reference, but the Dark Ones from the Night Watch series. Just because someone is dark, doesn't mean they are evil. someone who is light can do evil things and someone who is dark can do good things.

Oh Dib from Invader Zim. He's technically the good guy!

 

[Quazimofo]

I'd say one character that really emphasizes this trait is Ashur from the Fallout 3 DLC The Pitt.

Spoiler

Even before you arrive in the area, you have this concrete idea that all slavers in the Wasteland are evil, especially after the events surrounding Paradise Falls. So, you enter The Pitt with a natural resentment for the slavers, and in turn Ashur, and your first inclination is to aid the slaves. You keep this attitude up until you actually meet the man, and you realize just what the "cure" is. You learn that he enslaved all those people out of necessity and a desire to improve the Wasteland in the long term, and I personally ended up siding with him in the end.

The situation presented in that plot arch was one of the first ones that really struck me with seemingly undecidable decision, and even though the DLC itself wasn't the greatest, Bethesda really made a great moral conflict.

indeed, i hate how they labelled the one way with bad karma and the other with good despite you... well you know

Spoiler

you steal his baby and kill its parents so that a manipulative extremist can conduct more harmful experiments in a crappier facility on the baby to achieve the same results, but also winds up killing the city's entire defensive army and keeps all of the good clean developed areas with clean facilities and food out of the slaves' hands, so now they have to work doubly hard under the same conditions, the only difference being they have no taskmasters. and they call this the "good" karma way

 

[direkiller]

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.
.

he was accepted as a god by the outer gods

if that dosen't do it oblivion kinda proved he was a god
as you needed the blood of a divine to open a gate to paradise and you used his and i don't think magic rituals to rip open a door to a Dadric lord's summer home work on the wishful thinking of the population.

but the ritual only worked as he was accepted by the gods as a god, he was still a man who was worshiped as a god, but he was accepted as a god because he was worshiped by so many, and he was worshiped by so many for nearly committing genocide. This could be seen as incredibly offensive to be kind of people he killed, imagine if a person nearly committed genocide and this granted him worship to such an extent it was seen as a religion, wouldn't you find that religion incredibly offensive, wouldn't the people that that person nearly committed genocide on have a right to speak out about this and ask ti to be stopped so a mass murder wouldn't be seen as a god.

You are confusing Talos with Ysgramor. Talos, also known as Tiber Septim, is the first emperor of the third and current Empire and united all of Tamriel. Ysgramor drove the snow elves underground.

Also lets not forget that Talos is currently literally holding the universe together and is the most popular god in cyrodil.

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

In their main city in Skyrim? You mean Solitude? Because the only person I can think of who yelled about Talos was in Whiterun, which was the only neutral city.

-.- these mistakes don't make my argument seem very strong to they.

Yea RPG lore is a pain in the ass to learn

im still confused on how the Elder scrolls afterlife works



Such as nords normaly go to sovongard
but if the darkbrotherhood is contracted to kill them they serve sithis in the void.
so sithis> Aedra
Now anyone that is a wherewolf belongs to the dadric lord Hircine in the afterlife
dadric lord> Aedra
so if your a werewolf that is killed on a dark brotherhood contract what happens to your soul?
dose a void trump a Dadric lord? or do they just ro-sham-bo for your soul

 

[SajuukKhar]

-Only exceptional Nords go to Sovengard, which is ruled by Lorkhan.
-DB contract kills go to Sithis, who is Lorkhan.
-Werewolfs go to Hiricane's hunting grounds.
-Daedra Worships MAY go to the realms of the Lord they worship if the Daedra take them.
-Everyone else goes into the dreemesleave, gets their soul washed clean of memories, and sent back to earth in a new body.

 

[direkiller]

-Only exceptional Nords go to Sovengard, which is ruled by Lorkhan.
-DB contract kills go to Sithis, who is Lorkhan.
-Werewolfs go to Hiricane's hunting grounds.
-Daedra Worships MAY go to the realms of the Lord they worship if the Daedra take them.
-Everyone else goes into the dreemesleave, gets their soul washed clean of memories, and sent back to earth in a new body.

Lorkhan is sithis?
i thought Lorkhan was a Aedra(a dead one at that)
as sithis was around before the Aedra i don't see how they can be the same entity unless i missed something.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Lorkhan is sithis?
i thought Lorkhan was a Aedra(a dead one at that)
as sithis was around before the Aedra i don't see how they can be the same entity unless i missed something.

Lorkhan is not an Aedra, he is a spirit.

Secondly according to several books, and later confirmed by Bethesda, in the beginning time there was Anu and Padomey, the primal forces of stasis and change, their intermingling created the grey-maybe were nirn, and oblivion exist.

Anu and Padomey are forces not beings, but they became manifest as beings, called thier souls. Anu's manifestation was Anuiel, and Padomey's was Sithis.

It was said that Anuiel and Sitihis created their own souls manifest also. Anuiel's was akatosh, and Sithis's was Lorkhan

Padomey = Sithis = Lorkhan

Anu = Anuiel = Akatosh


Also in the deepscorn hollow plug-in for Oblivion there is a statue of Sithis, this statue has a hole in his chest were his heart would be, exactly like Lorkhan who had his heart take from him.

 

[PureIrony]

The Enclave in Fallout 3. Seriously, why did I even need to fight these guys? Their only goal throughout the game was to fix the water purifier I wanted to fix, and to kill Super Mutants and ghouls(feral as well as non-feral, but that's kind of par the course for most people in Fallout).

They weren't even going to put the FEV virus in. Colonel Autumn flat out says that he's not really following Eden anymore, and they didn't so much kill your dad as they did inspire him to commit suicide for no real reason. Having to wipe out their bases in Broken Steel just felt really...arbitrary.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

 

[SajuukKhar]

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

He still gets away with it if you side with The empire.

Beucase the white gold concordant was only activly enforced since the civil war started.

 

[Hal10k]

The Enclave in Fallout 3. Seriously, why did I even need to fight these guys? Their only goal throughout the game was to fix the water purifier I wanted to fix, and to kill Super Mutants and ghouls(feral as well as non-feral, but that's kind of par the course for most people in Fallout).

They weren't even going to put the FEV virus in. Colonel Autumn flat out says that he's not really following Eden anymore, and they didn't so much kill your dad as they did inspire him to commit suicide for no real reason. Having to wipe out their bases in Broken Steel just felt really...arbitrary.

In the defense of the Enclave killers, the Enclave were trying going to use the purifier as a bartering chip to strengthen their hold on the wasteland's populace. They were also shooting you on sight. I don't feel particularly guilty about fighting them.

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

CJ and his gang from Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. When I initially played San Andreas, I saw Carl and co. as nothing more than typical thugs, but my personal investigation into urban poverty, criminal psychology, and crime statistics really put them in a new light. One more befitting a victim reacting to circumstances.

Most of the other Grand Theft Auto characters are still villains, though. Especially Niko and the gangsters who came after him.

 

[Evil Alpaca]

Kerrigan from Starcraft II though that seemed like a cop out on Blizzards part. While the whole "she was mind-controlled" excuse might fly in the original, Brood War kinda nixed that. In the Protoss campaign, she came off as a psycho, manipulative killer. Now she is one of the good guys who isn't trying to devour the universe.

Raistlin from original Dragonlance. He was less not actually evil, and more not fully subservient to evil i.e helping vanquish a world conquering evil because he refuse to be anyone's servant. It was interesting in later books that he was one of few villains who only wanted to rule the world and wouldn't destroy it if he couldn't.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

hmmm... I never really considered the Unitologists as 'bad guys' in Dead Space - the few members you ever met were all completely insane and trying to kill you (understandable, considering there were necromorphs running around and the marker was driving them bonkers).
Hell, even the actual 'villains' of the games - the Necromorphs and Hans Tidemann respectively - weren't evil; the Necromorphs are just vicious beasts and nothing more, whilst Tidemann was trying desperately to get the Sprawl back under control from the Necromorph horde.

Ah, you're right, I should've put Tiedemann in there.
Come to think of it, he never really expresses any hostility toward Isaac, and at some points, he almost seems to be regretful that needs to try to kill him.

I found this on the Dead Space Wiki, and it sums up what I was going to say pretty well.

"At times, Tiedemann seems genuinely sorry for his need to combat Isaac, apologizing to Clarke regularly and even remarking that Isaac's resourcefulness and determination would be admirable "in more favorable circumstances". Eventually, this empathy progressively wanes as Tiedemann becomes more frustrated, and finally morphs into violent anger as Isaac allows the Necromorphs to breach the Government sector, butchering his men and allowing them to reach the Marker."

Tiedemann also stayed behind on the Sprawl while the rest of it's citizens evacuated instead of just evacuating with them, and I find that pretty admirable.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Alduin.

His destruction of the world is necessary, and beneficial.

 

[Charli]

snip
"I love the Imperial Legion"
snip

Did you not find yourself having a conflict of interest when you got to the climax of the Dark Brotherhood questline, though?

I purposefully made another character to do the DarkBrotherhood Quest line since yes, my overly moralistic main character wouldn't do it.

I killed her off since that's what my character would have done. Bit of role playing faggotry I know.

"You kiddnapped me in the middle of the night and then want me to kill one(or all) of three people I don't know? ...Lady you die now."

 

[Zelcor]

I know it's not strictly games but oh lord does Lelouch from Code Geass fit the bill.

Spoiler

Spends the entire first half of the series leading a revolution against the empire while doing some serious morally questionable things. Then in part two wins becomes the emperor and does some INCREDIBLY fucked up things. Stages his own assassination by the very persona he created so he could end all the bloodshed so the whole world can go "Oh thank god it's finally over lets not do that again. The whole series was his own calculation to bring about world peace. I...kid....you...not

There's a whole lot more to it and the nature of the ending couldn't have been more executed perfectly but that's the jist of it

 

[Matt Simon]

um, basically any boss from metal gear solid with a few exceptions (the bomber dude in mgs2... thats all i can think of).
if you didn't feel bad after killing sniper wolf then your an ass.
mgs3 was set up to make you feel bad about killing the boss.
hell most of the mgs3 guys were left overs from a time period when the Russians were not enemies so its not like they would resist when the boss tells them to fight for them.
everyone in foxhound they for the most part just want to survive, phyco mantis maybe not so much but you have to admit its pretty sad when he does something to help you and says he finally felt good about something he did.
The description of most of the mgs4 bosses is "victims of warcrimes transformed into cybernetic killing machines.
hell the main theme of the series is that they were made into the perfect soldiers and then everyone realizes they didn't want perfect soldiers.