Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.

[direkiller]

Lorkhan is sithis?
i thought Lorkhan was a Aedra(a dead one at that)
as sithis was around before the Aedra i don't see how they can be the same entity unless i missed something.

Lorkhan is not an Aedra, he is a spirit.

Secondly according to several books, and later confirmed by Bethesda, in the beginning time there was Anu and Padomey, the primal forces of stasis and change, their intermingling created the grey-maybe were nirn, and oblivion exist.

Anu and Padomey are forces not beings, but they became manifest as beings, called thier souls. Anu's manifestation was Anuiel, and Padomey's was Sithis.

It was said that Anuiel and Sitihis created their own souls manifest also. Anuiel's was akatosh, and Sithis's was Lorkhan

Padomey = Sithis = Lorkhan

Anu = Anuiel = Akatosh


Also in the deepscorn hollow plug-in for Oblivion there is a statue of Sithis, this statue has a hole in his chest were his heart would be, exactly like Lorkhan who had his heart take from him.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lorkhan
both kina right and wrong at the same time from the looks of it

"Lorkhan is one of the divine Aedra, and the one most directly responsible for the existence of Nirn. According to legend, Lorkhan died long ago, giving his life to create Nirn. As such, he has not had much direct influence over events of the Third Era, though he was indirectly responsible for at least three major near-disasters in the last decades of the Third Era, and his remains are connected to the disappearance of the Dwemer."

 

[uhddh]

*snip*

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.

Basically the empire is trying to stop the nords worshiping a man who nearly committed genocide as it is incredibly offensive to any elf. The only problem being is that they have to work with a group of elitist to accomplish this, which they don't like.

Ysgramor and the Companions drove the Snow Elves underground. Talos came after that and the Dragon war thing. He was the first Septim emperor. Tiber Septim. You know, Martin's great great great something grandfather.

 

[nuba km]

*snip*

-Storm cloaks are racist, but it's obvious they don't want to kick everyone out. Hell I was a wood elf and made my way up the ranks in their military, if they were so racist they wouldn't even let me join.

-Ulfric killed the king in consensual duel, it's like an ancient battle right the Nords practiced.

-The empire is clearly at the whim of the High elves , if they weren't they wouldn't have banned the worship of Talos which is their most popular god.

Basically in my eyes the empire is already as good as dead, if they willing to ban the worship of their most popular god then it shows how far they've gone. Making Skyrim independent would both allow the nords to worship Talos again and create another barrier to high elev domination.They could also work with the empire to fight the elves.

3. Talos wasn't a god he was a man who drove the NATIVE elves of skyrim underground in the name of the nords, nearly committing genocide, the native elves were then forced into slavery and blinded by the dwemer turning them into the falmer and now talos is worshiped like a god for it, even though he was just a man.

Basically the empire is trying to stop the nords worshiping a man who nearly committed genocide as it is incredibly offensive to any elf. The only problem being is that they have to work with a group of elitist to accomplish this, which they don't like.

Ysgramor and the Companions drove the Snow Elves underground. Talos came after that and the Dragon war thing. He was the first Septim emperor. Tiber Septim. You know, Martin's great great great something grandfather.

I was corrected by someone else already and I have other arguments to support my case if you read my other posts.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

OT: Arronax from Arcanum. One of the few twists in any story that legitimately got me.

Also the Wicked Witch of the West. I mean her sister was just murdered, and Glenda the good witch up and taunts her over and over and then steals her sisters shoes. All she wanted was to get her sisters ruby slippers back, and Dorthy just straight up murdered her because of Glenda who's credentials for being the hero to the WWotW's villian was that she was more pretty.

Also the hyenas from the lion king. I mean Mufasa gives this whole speech about how everyone is part of this ecosystem where they are all important and all rely on each other for survival. And then Simba is like what about the hyenas? And literally less than 15 seconds after his circle of life speech, Mufasa is advocating the genocide of all Hyenas. All they wanted was some food.

The Empire in Skyrim. They are made to be the bad guys in the beginning but they are actually trying to do their best to maintain stability.

By murdering random people? They freely admit right at the beginning that you pretty obviously aren't with the resistance at all, with your crime basically being stumbling too close to a battlefield. The commanding officers response when presented with this fact? Who gives a fuck, execute him/her anyways. Wow great policy for the good guys to have, execute random people. But its not just an insane policy, think about this for a second: If they hadn't been interrupted, the Empires execute-people-because-whatever policy would not only have killed you, but would have literally doomed the entire world to destruction and everyone in it every man, woman, child to a violent death.

All the bad stuff that the Empire does is because of the Elves.

So was Vichy France really the good guys and the French Resistance was evil then?

1. They can't lock contend of the game out to a player just because he isn't playing a certain race.

Yes they can, they are just too much of pansies to do so. Its supposed to be an RPG. The choices you make are supposed to mean something and the characters are supposed to have actual character. If you want to make someone be a racist then make them be a racist, don't just say they are and have them directly contradict what you just said through their actions. That is lazy writing, lazy coding and lazy story telling.

 

[uhddh]

I was corrected by someone else already and I have other arguments to support my case if you read my other posts.

Sorry. Couldn't be bothered reading the whole forum just to check.

 

[Ledan]

The Uncharted series. Because Nathan Drake is a douche.
I can never get over the fact (probably because the enemy AI is really good) that you are killing people for simple profit. Nathan never knows about the whole "The treasure will destroy the world" stuff before the end, so he is choosing to kill people for money, simply because they want the same treasure he does. If someone wanted a treasure so badly that I had to kill them to take it, i'd let them have it.

German soldiers in a WW2 game, the're not necessarily Nazis.

 

[Emperor Nat]

The video said: "One body, one mind, one soul." I realized they weren't evil when I really stopped and thought about what unitologists were following. They were following the Marker's message: One body, one mind, one soul. Convergance will cause this.
At first, that sounds great.It sounds like a poetic way to say that all people, everywhere, were coming together to live in peace. And end to discrimination, racsim, sexism, and bigotry in general. Personally, I would give a lot to see that happen.

Isn't uniformity and complete conformity in all things, to the point of acting like some sort of hive mind, the epitome of racism, sexism and discrimination? Are our differences not to be celebrated?

Although I agree that the unitologists themselves probably weren't actively trying to be evil.

OT:
Probably Arthas from the Warcraft mythos. He didn't -want- to become a mass-murdering psychotic undead-king... he just sorta got pushed into a corner and did what he had to, to try and save his people. Bad choice? Possibly. Evil intent? Nope.

 

[pffh]

OK I just read up on it and yes I did get those two mixed up, but I am still siding with the imperials as the reason I was against the storm cloaks is because they are racists, also I don't see the imperials ever stop the worship of talos I mean in their main city in skyrim they have a guy in the city center shouting about the glory of talos and the only thing I have seen was the removal of his shrine in the temple and you are saying that is something it is worth causing a war over.

The guy shouting can get away with it because Whiterun isnt an imperial city, it is neither. Solitude is the primary Imperial city and they removed the shrine from the Temple of the Divines so people could no worship him. The war started for several reasons, the stormcloaks wanted to be seperate from the empire, and also Talos was thier MAIN god, all of the other gods were not as important to them but they literally had worship of their most important god banned at the say so of the elves.

Also..the Stormcloaks are rascist? The Imperials sided with the Thalmor, who actively hate EVERYONE but them, the stormcloaks simply dislike but tolerate other races since it is their native land. The thalmor literally believe NOBODY else is worthy to go to the afterlife with them and that they are the only worthy ones.

Well there is an in game proof that the imperials also hate the Thalmor. You can kill thalmor right in front of guards for a minor bounty (50 gold) and if you find one inside an imperial allied city you can also kill them there (again for a 50 gold bounty). This means that killing a chicken is treated as a more serious crime then killing the Thalmor.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Also Riku from Kingdom Hearts.

Spoiler

all they want is to protect Yeul (Caius) or Kairi (Riku)

Not sure I agree about Riku, at least in the first game. That's more of an instance of "doing bad things with good intentions" (the road to hell, and all...) which I don't think is exactly the same thing.

Since I love the game here is my 2 cents.

Riku is not the villain at all. He tried to get stronger to protect his friends.

Spoiler

Ansem "Xehanort's Heartless" possessed Riku for his own intentions and in the end took over to fulfill his purpose and drive, to open Kingdom Hearts and embrace the true power he saw, Darkness. As well he wasn't necessarily very evil. He performed horrible acts in allowing the Heartless to consume planets and people. But his goal was to unlock the full potential of everything by releasing the darkness. He was very misguided but that was his intentions. The same can be said about Xehanort's nobody in KH2. He was not evil at all, he just wanted to exist since he was a shell, one without a heart or soul.

 

[Somepunctuation]

I'd say one character that really emphasizes this trait is Ashur from the Fallout 3 DLC The Pitt.

Spoiler

Even before you arrive in the area, you have this concrete idea that all slavers in the Wasteland are evil, especially after the events surrounding Paradise Falls. So, you enter The Pitt with a natural resentment for the slavers, and in turn Ashur, and your first inclination is to aid the slaves. You keep this attitude up until you actually meet the man, and you realize just what the "cure" is. You learn that he enslaved all those people out of necessity and a desire to improve the Wasteland in the long term, and I personally ended up siding with him in the end.

The situation presented in that plot arch was one of the first ones that really struck me with seemingly undecidable decision, and even though the DLC itself wasn't the greatest, Bethesda really made a great moral conflict.

indeed, i hate how they labelled the one way with bad karma and the other with good despite you... well you know

Spoiler

you steal his baby and kill its parents so that a manipulative extremist can conduct more harmful experiments in a crappier facility on the baby to achieve the same results, but also winds up killing the city's entire defensive army and keeps all of the good clean developed areas with clean facilities and food out of the slaves' hands, so now they have to work doubly hard under the same conditions, the only difference being they have no taskmasters. and they call this the "good" karma way

I really disagree with this.

The laundry list of atrocities committed by Ashur is incredibly hard to justify:

Spoiler

- Upon entering the Pitt you witness a tripple execution of unarmed slaves.
- Unarmed slaves are forced to traverse Trog infested terrain to obtain steel ignots for manufacturing purposes... despite the fact that Ashur has a large army of armed forces that could do that sort of work for him.
- Slaves are forced to work in terrible conditions which may or may not cause them to transform into Trogs.
- The slaves are being fed slop that a raider claims is partially made from Trog... in other words, they're being forced to eat mutated human beings.
- Mutilated bodies on pikes and chains are EVERYWHERE to serve as an example to the slaves.
- Ashur is sending raiders into the Capital Wastelands for slave labor. Most of the slavers/raiders attacking you throughout Fallout 3 can be tied to Ashur.

Ashur might have a silver tongue, but he's clearly a cruel despot even if his intentions were initially good. The question of whether he'd actually grant the slaves their freedom after meeting his arbitrary prerequisites is debatable. Also, assuming that he isn't so corrupt by that point as to keep everyone enslaved anyway, you have to wonder if his slaver army won't turn on him.

There are reasons for good characters to support him however. I wouldn't deny that.

 

[SajuukKhar]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lorkhan
both kina right and wrong at the same time from the looks of it

"Lorkhan is one of the divine Aedra, and the one most directly responsible for the existence of Nirn. According to legend, Lorkhan died long ago, giving his life to create Nirn. As such, he has not had much direct influence over events of the Third Era, though he was indirectly responsible for at least three major near-disasters in the last decades of the Third Era, and his remains are connected to the disappearance of the Dwemer."

1. UESP is semi-out of date
2. Elder Scrolls wiki is TERRIBLY out-of-date
Neither are good sources for lore.

The Imperial Library and the Bethesda Elder Scroll's Lore forums are the only two places you should be getting lore from.

UESP and Elder scrolls wiki don't accept outside-game lore documents made by the devs even if they have been proven canon.

snip

"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." - Zurin Arctus, the Underking

Alduin would have actually had to stop destroying everything if The Dragonborn was gone, the dragonborn was needed for Alduuin to be there and vice-vera. Beyond that they COULDN'T have killed you because destiny would have screwed it up in some way every time.

Secondly you were sent to be executed for ILLEGALLY CROSSING THE BORDER, why does no one bother to actually look up why you were arrested.

Thirdly this isn't vichy France in any way.

 

[SajuukKhar]

ugh i hate this places posting system post not supposed to be here.

 

[Frostbite3789]

more of a threat then the Big Bad Boss dragon.

Spoiler

I'd say Alduin trying to bring about the end of the world as they know it might be a tad worse than another region wanting to rule your region.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The thing about Alduin though is that once he eats the world another one is made and it is EXACTLY like the previous one. The world has been destroyed and rebuilt countless times in the ES universe.

Also he eats the world because with the destruction of the towers, such as Numidium, Crystal Tower, White Gold, The Throat of the World, Red Mountain, etc. etc., the world has become critically unstable and it would be disastrous to leave it standing for much longer.

Talos, who is Lorkhan reborn, and Akatosh fight their mirror brothers Auri-El, and the other time dragons, to keep the world going as long as possible so that all mortals may find CHIM like Vivec and Talos did.

It is why the thalmor hate Talos so, he and Akatosh keep Auri-El bound and with him the Mer.

 

[sage42]

Technically a game villain, Mister Freeze from Batman Arkham City. I never really think about villains untill I fight'em and Mr. Freeze was no exception, I realized that he's not really a bad guy, he just wants to save his wife, what ever the cost. Even if it means doing some bad things. To paraphrase Threasa from Fable 2. "Would we do anything different?" I wouldn't.

 

[Somebloke]

...
Problem is (and also why I think the narrative of Skyrim is so well done), both paths could be said to help and hurt the Thalmor.
...

And indeed; It is made clear, especially during the embassy chapter, that the Thalmor are actively playing the two sides against each other -- divide and conquer and all that.

Both the Imperials and Ulfric are fully aware of this and still lets it happen.

Time of misrule indeed.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Time of misrule indeed.

The time of Misrule was Jagar Tharn's rule during ES 1:Arena.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Your brother from Fable 3

Spoiler: More than likely redundant spoiler warning

You find out that he was only driving the people so hard because he needed the money to pay for the army and forces that would stand against the shadows that would kill them all. So yeah he was a right bastard but his intentions were good. That's why I let him go in the end

Edit

Also Saren from Mass Effect for similar reasons.

This is off topic, but... ugh, what a waste. I kept him alive because I assumed he'd be an asset in the final battle, instead he's just like "Well, fine, kingdoms yours, I'm gonna go over here now!"

Ugh... Fable 3 blew, hard.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Kerrigan from Starcraft II though that seemed like a cop out on Blizzards part. While the whole "she was mind-controlled" excuse might fly in the original, Brood War kinda nixed that. In the Protoss campaign, she came off as a psycho, manipulative killer. Now she is one of the good guys who isn't trying to devour the universe.

Raistlin from original Dragonlance. He was less not actually evil, and more not fully subservient to evil i.e helping vanquish a world conquering evil because he refuse to be anyone's servant. It was interesting in later books that he was one of few villains who only wanted to rule the world and wouldn't destroy it if he couldn't.

I thought in Starcraft II she was pretty much just chilling out, because she knew the end of the universe was coming and she couldn't do fuck about it.