Barack Obama and Socialism

[Mistah Kurtz]

Because the way the system is set up now, the rich continue to get richer by fleecing money off of people who would be rich by the efforts of their labor in a fair market environment LIKE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE BUT DON'T!

Actually, in a capitalist society the rich are supposed to make money off the fruits of their labor. They use their money to start businesses and the laborers do the manual work to earn a living from the rich person. It's called "capitalism", get it?

Health Care Should be amended in this country to be a constitutionally garuanteed right. Government exists to protect and assist it's people. If it can't help out when people are injured or dying, what the hell good is it? Might as well tear it down and start again. By the way, Hillary supported socialized medicine. Obama doesn't.

Government exists to protect people, yes, but to what extent? Paying our way? Being our mommys and daddys? Making sure we're all happy? Please answer me on whether or not food should also be considered a constitutional right - you need food far more than you need health care to survive, so why should people have to pay for their own food? Shouldn't the government take care of it for us? Shouldn't they make sure we have a place to live, and nice cars to drive too? After all, you need shelter to survive and transportation to be a productive worker.

Bill Ayers was a terrorist during the 1960s. Obama was a child in the 1960s. If you can show me some photos of him taking part personally in a strike against America alongside Bill Ayers then you have a case. Otherwise it's a nonissue.

Once again, an Obama supporter is deliberately missing the point. NO ONE SAID OBAMA IS A TERRORIST. NO ONE SAID HE TOOK PART IN THE BOMBINGS! NO ONE! NOT ONE PERSON!
The claim being made is that he's the kind of man who's willing to form extensive relationships with unrepentant terrorists - Obama even recommended one of Ayer's books on education, a man who should be as far from the education system as possible. This coupled with his ties to black liberation theology, a far left racist sect of christianity, and his membership in the New Party, there's good reason to question Obama's past and wonder about what kind of man he is today.

JOE THE PLUMBER IS NOT A FUCKING PLUMBER! He is an entrepenuer and investor who bought a plumbing company. I promise you that when your toilet fills up with shit, Joe has never and will never show up with some drano and a snake to flush it out. He might know enough to fix his own plumbing and power to him, but no plumber makes over $250k a year.

I fail to see your point. So we should punish the entrepreneurs who create the jobs that put the working class to work?

During their presidencies both FDR and Eisenhower instituted major reforms that could be called socialist as easily as anything Obama is suggesting. And so what if we make a few more programs socialist in nature. It's not as if he'll be elected and we'll all take down the American flag and start flying the hammer and cycle. If a solution works then we need to take advantage of it and not willfully ignore our problem because it's the same idea that a country we've never been on good terms with liked the idea once upon a time too.

Not everyone agrees with what FDR did, myself included. Pouring a bunch of money into public works programs that did nothing was a huge waste of money. We are WORRIED that Obama is going to do what FDR did.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-chicago-socialist,0,4048540.story

there from several horses mouths. obama is NOT a socialist.

/thread

Oh wow, the Chicago tribune refutes an obama slam.
Are you daft?

 

[Typecast]

Yes and I suppose the capitalist economic philosophy has NOTHING to do with the current recession. Expect social-oriented reforms in the years to come, regardless of who gets elected. As for your "Joe the Plumber" argument, what planet are you living on? America has never been the land of opportunity. Actually, it HAS been the land of the opportunist. I'm generalising, but I doubt "Joe the Plumber" earns enough to actually get shafted with the tax increase in a significant way. In Australia, you pay what you can based on how much you earn, so the first 6,000 dollars of your income you pay 0% tax. It get's incrimentally larger the more you earn so that it's "fair". AND it makes economic sense, those controlling a larger portion of the nation's wealth are forced to put it back into the country they live in, instead of just accumulating wealth, like a personal Fort Knox(or whatever the hell it is) and sitting on it, taking that wealth out of circulation or WORSE(for the country) investing overseas.
Anyway, I doubt that America will survive this economic crucible without become more socialist. Otherwise expect food riots, legions of homeless and public health care.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

In the words of Glenn Beck, 'why should someone who worked hard their whole life have to cut a check for the guy who fucked up their order at McDonalds?"

How about for the guy who got their order just right at McDonald's and was polite and courteous, but can't rise any higher because they don't have the talent?

Like they pointed out in _BioShock_, even in Rapture, someone has to clean the toilets.

What about the guy who can't rise any higher because he doesn't have talent?
Fuck him. You don't reward people without talent. That makes no sense. What kind of preschool mentality are you living in?

 

[black lincon]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-obama-chicago-socialist,0,4048540.story

there from several horses mouths. obama is NOT a socialist.

/thread

Oh wow, the Chicago tribune refutes an obama slam.
Are you daft?

no, communists refute an Obama slam that claims Obama is a socialist. did you even bother to read the article? or did you just go," Ew something that doesn't agree with my opinion!"

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

Yes and I suppose the capitalist economic philosophy has NOTHING to do with the current recession. Expect social-oriented reforms in the years to come, regardless of who gets elected. As for your "Joe the Plumber" argument, what planet are you living on? America has never been the land of opportunity. Actually, it HAS been the land of the opportunist. I'm generalising, but I doubt "Joe the Plumber" earns enough to actually get shafted with the tax increase in a significant way. In Australia, you pay what you can based on how much you earn, so the first 6,000 dollars of your income you pay 0% tax. It get's incrimentally larger the more you earn so that it's "fair". AND it makes economic sense, those controlling a larger portion of the nation's wealth are forced to put it back into the country they live in, instead of just accumulating wealth, like a personal Fort Knox(or whatever the hell it is) and sitting on it, taking that wealth out of circulation or WORSE(for the country) investing overseas.
Anyway, I doubt that America will survive this economic crucible without become more socialist. Otherwise expect food riots, legions of homeless and public health care.

Actually, no. Nice try though. The current american market crisis has been caused by a number of things, but it all started back in the 1970's when democratic president Jimmy Carter started imposing fines on banks that refused to lend money to the poor, calling it 'discrimination'. Another socialist idea, carter didn't like the idea that people couldn't get a loan to buy a house, so why not give them an equal chance?

People began getting loans who couldn't afford them thanks to this. Some African American's today are filing a class action law suit for not giving loans to people in the area because of what they felt to be "racism". This kind of socialistic attitude is what caused the housing market crash, and I'm astounded that you can't understand this. These bankers weren't racist or discriminatory, they were smart. YOU DON'T GIVE SOMEONE A LOAN UNLESS THEY CAN PAY IT BACK. Period. End of story. This wasn't good enough for the bleeding hearts watching families get kicked out of their houses and decided instead of starting privately fun charities and offering a room in their house to homeless people, they took the socialist view - Let the government handle it!

The reason I don't want socialized medicine is not because I hate anyone, I won't be able to afford it for years I'm sure after i finish college, but the problem is that it will cost more in the long run. The government is terribly inefficient in what it does, which is why almost every government service has been done better by the private sector, from the post office to space shuttle building, excluding services with the 'free-rider' problem, as it doesn't make sense for companies to offer these types of services(things like national defense). This means that medicine will cost more than it has to when the private sector could do it more efficiently. Rather than apply full on socialism, I believe we should apply small doses of socialism (remember what I said about socialism being like red wine?) and cut down on the market's self-caused inflation of prices (hospitals charging 20 bucks for a box of tissues and passing the cost to the insurance company and thus on to you) through more regulation of the health system. Just because socialism has some good ideas in it doesn't mean it's a good idea. The Ku Klux Klan have some good things about them - they're patriotic, they're not afraid to speak their mind, etc - but to say that just because the KKK has a few acceptable facets to it doesn't mean in any way that we should consider joining the Klan.

 

[Alex_P]

Sure, Exxon makes huge profits, but they also pay huge amounts of taxes - that one company paid more money in taxes than the bottom 50% of the entire country paid put together.

Source, please? It's not that I think you're lying. It's that I want to see the exact language in your reference.

-- Alex

I originally heard the figure from Glenn Beck, but rather than cite a source and risk people attacking the source itself, here's a google search link that gives this figure from many different sources: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=IQS&q=exxon+mobile+taxes+more+50%25&btnG=Search

Since none of the sources I looked at mentions payroll tax, I'm gonna assume they totally forgot about payroll taxes.

Everyone who gets a paycheck pays payroll taxes, which are used to support programs like social security and Medicare. If you make less than $100,000 a year, payroll tax is a flat percentage of your income (if you make more, payroll tax is only calculated from your first $100,000). IIRC, the IRS doesn't count payroll tax as income tax. There aren't many exemptions for payroll taxes.

Poor wage-earners' tax burden looks significantly bigger when you factor this stuff in.

-- Alex

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

In the words of Glenn Beck, 'why should someone who worked hard their whole life have to cut a check for the guy who fucked up their order at McDonalds?"

How about for the guy who got their order just right at McDonald's and was polite and courteous, but can't rise any higher because they don't have the talent?

Like they pointed out in _BioShock_, even in Rapture, someone has to clean the toilets.

What about the guy who can't rise any higher because he doesn't have talent?
Fuck him. You don't reward people without talent. That makes no sense. What kind of preschool mentality are you living in?

The same one you are? I mean, you said:

"In America you work for what you get and you don't resent those who reap the rewards for their efforts." [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.74687.842544]

Not 'in America if you work, you get something if you're talented, but if you're not talented, fuck you! This isn't a preschool--you don't get what you work for, you get what you're talented enough to get if you work for it!'

I mean, you said:

"When left wingers tell you that you're poor and destined to stay that way, STOP BELEIVING THEM!"

You didn't qualify that with 'unless you have no talent--in that case, fuck you! You should believe them if you have no talent--this isn't a nursery school we're running here!'

/end of thread

You got me there. Let me rephrase:
If you're poor, don't listen to the left wingers when they tell you you'll stay that way. Unless you have absolutely no talent and aren't willing to get an education and work hard and stick with it so you'll be able to get a job in your chosen field and repay your student loans. Then you're fucked. Sorry dude. Here's some government cheese, that's all we can do.

 

[PillowFire]

Are you kidding me? Is socialism good? HELL NO. Who are the fools on this thread who continue to ask why socialism is bad? ARE YOU PEOPLE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING?

A) Ignorant of history

B) Stupid

C) Have a mental disorder

D) Uneducated of worldly-matters.


I come from a socialist nation. My parents lived their entire lives in the former USSR. THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SOCIALISM AND WHY IT DOESN'T WORK. Waiting in line for basic necessities because there are massive food shortages which puts camping for a PS3 to shame. Mass corruption, everyone bound by a leash and ordered around by big government. My parents told me that they once went 6 months with NO PAY because there was mass money shortage and the government (the politicians) spent the money that was left on themselves before the people.

Karl Marx is a stupid little fool from Germany. He sat around all his life, not having to do any damned work, drinking beer and pondering how great it would be if everyone could live off of someone elses money. YOU IDIOTS THINK SOCIALISM GOT US AS ADVANCED AS WE ARE?!?! Capitalism, Free market economy, they are the reason why the U.S. has an economy of 14 trillion GDP per year (the highest in the world many times over) they are the reason your little Playstations and your xbox's exist. They are the reason we are so damned advanced. Because the free market is the best system there is. It's not perfect, but neither is anything else, and capitalism is about as close as you will get. Capitalism and liberty, freedom, these things go hand in hand. Freedom from big government telling you how to live your life. Freedom from lazy fucks who divide us into class brackets and wage class-warfare, telling us what we can and cannot do with our hard-earned money. My family didn't narrowly escape the epic failure that is socialism only to have it re-forced down our throats by ignorant little pricks who don't value their freedom and choose to give it up so easily to greedy and corrupt politicians out for power, fame, and money. We moved to America with NOTHING but an education. Yet my father now makes over 100k as an electrical engineer. HOW IS THAT? IF CAPITALISM IS SO EVIL, HOW THE HELL IS HE SO SUCCESSFUL!?! Maybe it's because you idiots fail to see that in America, all it takes is hardwork, dedication, and an education to achieve. You are not fixed into some sort of caste. In America, you, the individual, have the ability to shape your future and raise yourself from rags to riches. The world should be taking example of America, noting it's success, and striving for the same liberty, free market, and limited government as described in our constitution.



As for Obama. Yes, the man is good pals with Bill Ayars. I will go one step further however. Go read Saul Alinski's book, "rules for radicals". You will find that Obama's spouting of "change", and in general the things that he says are almost an exact CARBON COPY of what is written in this book. SOCIALISM HAS NEVER, EVER IN HISTORY WORKED, IT NEVER WILL, AND IT'S A FAILED SYSTEM!!!!! Free healthcare doesn't work. Not only do you turn over control of your health to some big beaurocratic entity (i.e. the government) but it's also not free. IT'S NOT FREE, HEAR THAT? IT'S ALWAYS THE HARDWORKING MIDDLE INCOME FAMILY THAT PAYS FOR YOUR FREE HEALTHCARE INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN! Besides, the same idiots who can't run and manage a lemonade stand are going to be trusted with taking care of the health of the entire country? LOOOOOOOOOLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop telling us how bad the rich are, they earned their damned money and have a damned right to do with it what they wish and that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Stop counting other people's money. If I go and invent some life-changing product, some amazing medical breakthrough or some amazing feat of technology, and I get rich off of it, I DO NOT WANT YOU IGNORANT LAZY SOCIALISTS COMING IN AND TAKING MY HARD-EARNED MONEY. So what if you die? So what if you starve? Whatever happens in a free market, freedom-based society will be 1000X worse in a socialistic society. This has been proven over and over by history and by facts.


Socialism is bad for EVERYONE BUT THE DIRTY LITTLE POLITICIANS THAT RUN IT!


Rant over. End of discussion. Any of you people want to argue with me, name three cases of socialism ever working as a policy for any country. You would be a dirty lier because it has never worked.

 

[Imitation Saccharin]

HELL NO. ARE YOU PEOPLE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING?
USSR. THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SOCIALISM AND WHY IT DOESN'T WORK.
YOU IDIOTS THINK SOCIALISM GOT US AS ADVANCED AS WE ARE?!?!NOTHING
HOW IS THAT? IF CAPITALISM IS SO EVIL, HOW THE HELL IS HE SO SUCCESSFUL!?!
SOCIALISM HAS NEVER, EVER IN HISTORY WORKED, IT NEVER WILL, AND IT'S A FAILED SYSTEM!!!!! IT'S NOT FREE, HEAR THAT? IT'S ALWAYS THE HARDWORKING MIDDLE INCOME FAMILY THAT PAYS FOR YOUR FREE HEALTHCARE INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN! I DO NOT WANT YOU IGNORANT LAZY SOCIALISTS COMING IN AND TAKING MY HARD-EARNED MONEY.
EVERYONE BUT THE DIRTY LITTLE POLITICIANS THAT RUN IT!

End of discussion.

Yes. But not for the reason you intended.

 

[Alex_P]

JOE THE PLUMBER IS NOT A FUCKING PLUMBER! He is an entrepenuer and investor who bought a plumbing company. I promise you that when your toilet fills up with shit, Joe has never and will never show up with some drano and a snake to flush it out. He might know enough to fix his own plumbing and power to him, but no plumber makes over $250k a year.

From what I've gathered...

Joe the Plumber isn't an entrepreneur or an investor. He doesn't own a company that makes over $250k/yr, nor is he in the position to buy one next year like he said he would be. His occupation is most definitely plumbing-related rather than entrepreneurship-related.

Now, he's not quite a full-on plumber. You see, Joe is a guy who works for some other guy's plumbing business and doesn't have his own plumber's license. That makes him a plumber in everyday parlance but not a plumber according to the state or the plumber's guild or the phonebook. If I recall correctly, that means he should only be doing supervised work, but I think his company was kinda bending the rules a little bit on that front -- which is a problem since an unsupervised unlicensed plumber is kinda like an unsupervised unlicensed electrician.

-- Alex

 

[Alex_P]

LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS

You know, you're pretty close to causing a capital-letters shortage. You really should curb your consumption a bit so there's enough to go around.

-- Alex

 

[black lincon]

Are you kidding me? Is socialism good? HELL NO. Who are the fools on this thread who continue to ask why socialism is bad? ARE YOU PEOPLE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING?

A) Ignorant of history

B) Stupid

C) Have a mental disorder

D) Uneducated of worldly-matters.


I come from a socialist nation. My parents lived their entire lives in the former USSR. THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SOCIALISM AND WHY IT DOESN'T WORK. Waiting in line for basic necessities because there are massive food shortages which puts camping for a PS3 to shame. Mass corruption, everyone bound by a leash and ordered around by big government. My parents told me that they once went 6 months with NO PAY because there was mass money shortage and the government (the politicians) spent the money that was left on themselves before the people.

Karl Marx is a stupid little fool from Germany. He sat around all his life, not having to do any damned work, drinking beer and pondering how great it would be if everyone could live off of someone elses money. YOU IDIOTS THINK SOCIALISM GOT US AS ADVANCED AS WE ARE?!?! Capitalism, Free market economy, they are the reason why the U.S. has an economy of 14 trillion GDP per year (the highest in the world many times over) they are the reason your little Playstations and your xbox's exist. They are the reason we are so damned advanced. Because the free market is the best system there is. It's not perfect, but neither is anything else, and capitalism is about as close as you will get. Capitalism and liberty, freedom, these things go hand in hand. Freedom from big government telling you how to live your life. Freedom from lazy fucks who divide us into class brackets and wage class-warfare, telling us what we can and cannot do with our hard-earned money. My family didn't narrowly escape the epic failure that is socialism only to have it re-forced down our throats by ignorant little pricks who don't value their freedom and choose to give it up so easily to greedy and corrupt politicians out for power, fame, and money. We moved to America with NOTHING but an education. Yet my father now makes over 100k as an electrical engineer. HOW IS THAT? IF CAPITALISM IS SO EVIL, HOW THE HELL IS HE SO SUCCESSFUL!?! Maybe it's because you idiots fail to see that in America, all it takes is hardwork, dedication, and an education to achieve. You are not fixed into some sort of caste. In America, you, the individual, have the ability to shape your future and raise yourself from rags to riches. The world should be taking example of America, noting it's success, and striving for the same liberty, free market, and limited government as described in our constitution.



As for Obama. Yes, the man is good pals with Bill Ayars. I will go one step further however. Go read Saul Alinski's book, "rules for radicals". You will find that Obama's spouting of "change", and in general the things that he says are almost an exact CARBON COPY of what is written in this book. SOCIALISM HAS NEVER, EVER IN HISTORY WORKED, IT NEVER WILL, AND IT'S A FAILED SYSTEM!!!!! Free healthcare doesn't work. Not only do you turn over control of your health to some big beaurocratic entity (i.e. the government) but it's also not free. IT'S NOT FREE, HEAR THAT? IT'S ALWAYS THE HARDWORKING MIDDLE INCOME FAMILY THAT PAYS FOR YOUR FREE HEALTHCARE INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN! Besides, the same idiots who can't run and manage a lemonade stand are going to be trusted with taking care of the health of the entire country? LOOOOOOOOOLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop telling us how bad the rich are, they earned their damned money and have a damned right to do with it what they wish and that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Stop counting other people's money. If I go and invent some life-changing product, some amazing medical breakthrough or some amazing feat of technology, and I get rich off of it, I DO NOT WANT YOU IGNORANT LAZY SOCIALISTS COMING IN AND TAKING MY HARD-EARNED MONEY. So what if you die? So what if you starve? Whatever happens in a free market, freedom-based society will be 1000X worse in a socialistic society. This has been proven over and over by history and by facts.


Socialism is bad for EVERYONE BUT THE DIRTY LITTLE POLITICIANS THAT RUN IT!


Rant over. End of discussion. Any of you people want to argue with me, name three cases of socialism ever working as a policy for any country. You would be a dirty lier because it has never worked.

The USSR was a socialist communism, and a very corrupt one at that, the US on the other hand is a democracy. if the US were to become totally socialist then it would still be different from the USSR's.

 

[PillowFire]

@ Cheeze-Pavillion

A free market economy is exactly what a socialistic economy is not. They ARE NOT compatible. Have you read the book wealth of nations by John Adam? Have you read Karl Marx's shit-pile called Communist Manifesto? I don't think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Come back to me when you have actually lived in a socialistic society instead of sitting around and thinking up pipe-dream scenarios. Socialism IS redistribution of wealth, it is big government taking your labor, the money, the wealth that YOU earned by giving up a part of your life, and giving it away to other people. Tell me something, what kind of free society takes YOUR labor and gives it away to people without your consent. I am not talking about taxes, I am not talking about basics that are needed for a functioning government. I AM TALKING ABOUT SOCIALISM!

Oh and, just to point out, once again, I am sure you are the expert on the Soviet Union, what with.....how many years have you lived there?

The USSR did exactly what Obama want's to do; they nationalized everything, they created problems to solve so they could gain more control, they redistributed wealth because "those greedy rich people are getting rich off the backs of the poor", they made everyone, "equal".

Sounded all great on paper until it imploded on itself after decades of misery. Once again I will ask you to list three nations where socialism has worked. You would be a dirty lier if you came up with such a list (tip: socialism doesn't work, it fails).


Alex_p-please leave this discussion if you have nothing useful to add.

 

[Amnestic]

HELL NO. ARE YOU PEOPLE ONE OF THE FOLLOWING?
USSR. THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SOCIALISM AND WHY IT DOESN'T WORK.
YOU IDIOTS THINK SOCIALISM GOT US AS ADVANCED AS WE ARE?!?!NOTHING
HOW IS THAT? IF CAPITALISM IS SO EVIL, HOW THE HELL IS HE SO SUCCESSFUL!?!
SOCIALISM HAS NEVER, EVER IN HISTORY WORKED, IT NEVER WILL, AND IT'S A FAILED SYSTEM!!!!! IT'S NOT FREE, HEAR THAT? IT'S ALWAYS THE HARDWORKING MIDDLE INCOME FAMILY THAT PAYS FOR YOUR FREE HEALTHCARE INSTEAD OF THEIR OWN! I DO NOT WANT YOU IGNORANT LAZY SOCIALISTS COMING IN AND TAKING MY HARD-EARNED MONEY.
EVERYONE BUT THE DIRTY LITTLE POLITICIANS THAT RUN IT!

End of discussion.

Yes. But not for the reason you intended.

Capslock makes your points more important than other people's.