Barack Obama and Socialism

[Alex_P]

If Obama already had the support of the majority of Americans he wouldn't have needed to campaign at all. Buying an election means giving a candidate so much media exposure that public opinion turns favorable towards him no matter what his politics - this is exactly what Barack Obama has done. Where the money comes from doesn't matter at all.

Ah, but, see, he wants to be sure he's going to win. Would you rest on your laurels if the odds were slightly (say, 60:40) in your favor?

Likewise, given the option, Obama, like every presidential candidate before him, wants to win big. In America, rolling into the White House with 350 electoral votes gives you a lot more immediate clout than squeaking in with 270.

-- Alex

 

[Typecast]

No because everyone in america will soon be poor.

 

[Liatach]

And stop lying, Obama absolutely DID do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwog6E08CFU
Why do Obama supporters just deny every shitty thing he's ever done? Why not explain it instead - all it does is make you look like liars and idiots.

You don't actually have to hold your hand over your heart for the national anthem. Again, you're thinking of the Pledge of Allegiance.

Funny you'd think think honest to god patriots would:
A: Know the difference &
B: find offense with such a horrifically rendered version of their national anthem
sheesh

 

[yzzlthtz]

And stop lying, Obama absolutely DID do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwog6E08CFU
Why do Obama supporters just deny every shitty thing he's ever done? Why not explain it instead - all it does is make you look like liars and idiots.

You don't actually have to hold your hand over your heart for the national anthem. Again, you're thinking of the Pledge of Allegiance.

Funny you'd think think honest to god patriots would:
A: Know the difference &
B: find offense with such a horrifically rendered version of their national anthem
sheesh

i'm glad that Mistah Kurtz guy got banned. i didn't read any posts by him that were particularly offensive, but he seemed like a serious Rush Limbaugh devotee.
and that guy's one of the best liars in the history of lying.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

i'm glad that Mistah Kurtz guy got banned. i didn't read any posts by him that were particularly offensive, but he seemed like a serious Rush Limbaugh devotee.

Glen Beck, actually, given the sources he cited... not much better, I guess.

I do blame Beck and Limbaugh and their fellow travelers for a lot of the intolerance that has been floating around in the Republican Party. Indeed, I must admit that much of my personal support for Obama comes from wanting the Repugnicant wing of the GOP completely discredited and humiliated so that some sort of sane conservatism can take root again. You guys need fiscal discipline; not now, because your economy is teetering and alas you need those socialist infusions to stave off a collapse, but once the US is back on its feet again you really do have to take a look at how you're going to pay off all that debt before it really does crush you permanently.

Mind you, what I object to the most in the neo-Conservative movement isn't the fiscal irresponsibility or the cronyism or even the manipulative arrogance they've inculcated; it's the heinous disregard for anybody but the Party, something I thought I wouldn't see outside Soviet-modelled states. Foreign or domestic, you were "wit' us or agin' us" and if you ever stuck up for yourself against that simplistic mindset you became a target.

Remember, these are the guys who managed to piss away a serious offer of help from Iran after bin Laden's attacks. I'd like to think that even Gore would've been able to catch that easy pass, and that even so uncharismatic a figure could've turned it into at least a good propaganda moment to get genuine international assistance in tracking down those villains, but RovingBushCo managed to fumble it on their own one-yard line by buying into their "lone cowboy" self-image and trying to go it alone.

I wish I could say that I know Obama will do better, but all I can say for certain is that he can't do any worse.

-- Steve

PS: Obama took Constitutional Law in college, so maybe he'll stop shredding your Ammendments for bedding material. That's a good thing, right?

 

[jdguy]

what only makes me confused by all of this... is McCain is the socalist just more for the upperclass.

If your rich America is a socialist nation... if your poor or middle class its capitalism.

The rich get government bailouts and help, the poor suffer.

 

[Saskwach]

If you can't see the difference between 'I got elected because a huge number of people wanted me to win' and 'I got elected because a small number of people who each have a huge amount of money wanted me to win' then well, to steal a bit from Jeff Foxworthy...You Just Might Be A Republican!

Or a Real American.

 

[Gek]

Did the United States defeat Socialism and the USSR only to become what we defeated? Will the "eternal campaign" focus of party-based conduct finally dissolve? Will a congressional term limit make it into the Constitution?

Find out over the next few decades as you play: Fablemerica Ver236.303.
Your decisions change the world... like a snail... or really-really tiny plankton...


On the subject of socialism in education, nations like Iceland and India are beating the shit out of Americans in terms of educational performance and the ability to get jobs in high-intelligence fields. Note that most industrialized nations have government controlled budgeting for schools in one form or another and that America uses a school-board system that use local (rich neighborhood/poor neighborhood) funding and competition, reinforcing the education and wage gaps as good teachers seek jobs in rich schools and weak teachers get jobs in poor schools. Do American students have the will to learn what we need to compete instead of entertain ourselves? In an environment where poor funding destroys the resources for learning, the value of an iPod multiplies as knowledge of how poor ones' education is devalues that education.

In the case of education, I believe that socialism would certainly help produce more middle-class citizens by closing the educational resource gap. As it stands now, American high schools teach bare-basics that allow for low-education jobs in a nation where higher-education jobs now operate the low-education fields in foreign nations, leaving middle class jobs that can't be filled because the undereducated can't or won't apply. The problem with widespread socialism is that it spreads poverty as it discourages achievement. In concentrated doses - move schools to state-based funding and ownership (and for God's sake eliminate all this legacy crap in colleges) - it can do good, but accomplishing medical, market, and educational socialism simultaneously isn't feasible since we simply can't afford to. If Americans are going to compete in a world that increasingly lowers its borders yet raises its demands, some fundamental shift in values has to occur. So the final questions are: What is valuable enough to Americans that we want to socialize it and what will it cost?

 

[Alex_P]

We grow good people in our small towns.

In vats.

-- Alex

 

[Walden]

... and Obama isn't given to resorting to fascist remarks in order to promote his chances at winning the election.

EDIT: Sources for my statements: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/pers-o23.shtml and http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/elec-s13.shtml

Please cease your misuse od the word fascism.
Fascism is a rejection of the individual as an entity seperate from the state. Social intervention (for example welfare,) protectionism (abolishing NAFTA,) collectivism (the welfare of the poor is as/more important than your own) are all aspects of fascism.
The only big difference between fascism and the middle stages of communism is that communism's goal is a classless society, whereas fascism prefers a society with well-defined classes which cooperate for the benefit of the nation as a whole.

From Obama's comments, he does not seem fascist so much as communist, since spreading the wealth around implies elimination of classes. Socialism, however, is an integral component of both fascism and communism.

If you're going to throw insults at the republican party, call them theocrats or.. I don't know, what do you call a participant in a military dictatorship? Whatever that is. Fascism and communism is the domain of the democratic party.

Obama's tax cuts would benefit me, but I don't want them subsidized by the wealthy, I'd prefer by not turning our health care system into the UK's or Canada's (you don't have to worry about paying, you do have to be worry about being treated, or fed.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1039562/Number-elderly-patients-starving-NHS-wards-doubles-30-000-years.html

By fascist, I mean a party or person who:

-is very nationalistic and militaristic
-accepts violence in political conflicts
-has an opposition to democracy, rule of law, pluralism (with reference to parties or diversity in organizations), parliaments, opposition, tolerance, and human and civil rights.
-places an almost mythical emphasis on the national community

I've seen all of these in McCain's and Palin's speeches. A particular example that sticks in my head is the rally where Palin didn't quell her supporters when they shouted that Obama was a terrorist and that someone should "kill him". When this came up in the debate:

Obama: "...were shouting, when my name came up, things like ?terrorist' and ?kill him,' and that your running mate didn't mention, didn't stop, didn't say, ?Hold on a second, that's kind of out of line.'"

McCain (response): "Let me just say categorically I'm proud of the people that come to our rallies."

This kind of sentiment in the rallies echoes rallies of fascist parties in pre-WWII Europe. This is quite chilling for me, especially since it is happening in the so-called "Land of the Free."

 

[Gek]

... and Obama isn't given to resorting to fascist remarks in order to promote his chances at winning the election.

EDIT: Sources for my statements: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/pers-o23.shtml and http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/elec-s13.shtml

Please cease your misuse od the word fascism.
Fascism is a rejection of the individual as an entity seperate from the state. Social intervention (for example welfare,) protectionism (abolishing NAFTA,) collectivism (the welfare of the poor is as/more important than your own) are all aspects of fascism.
The only big difference between fascism and the middle stages of communism is that communism's goal is a classless society, whereas fascism prefers a society with well-defined classes which cooperate for the benefit of the nation as a whole.

From Obama's comments, he does not seem fascist so much as communist, since spreading the wealth around implies elimination of classes. Socialism, however, is an integral component of both fascism and communism.

If you're going to throw insults at the republican party, call them theocrats or.. I don't know, what do you call a participant in a military dictatorship? Whatever that is. Fascism and communism is the domain of the democratic party.

Obama's tax cuts would benefit me, but I don't want them subsidized by the wealthy, I'd prefer by not turning our health care system into the UK's or Canada's (you don't have to worry about paying, you do have to be worry about being treated, or fed.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1039562/Number-elderly-patients-starving-NHS-wards-doubles-30-000-years.html

By fascist, I mean a party or person who:

-is very nationalistic and militaristic
-accepts violence in political conflicts
-has an opposition to democracy, rule of law, pluralism (with reference to parties or diversity in organizations), parliaments, opposition, tolerance, and human and civil rights.
-places an almost mythical emphasis on the national community

I've seen all of these in McCain's and Palin's speeches. A particular example that sticks in my head is the rally where Palin didn't quell her supporters when they shouted that Obama was a terrorist and that someone should "kill him". When this came up in the debate:

Obama: "...were shouting, when my name came up, things like ?terrorist' and ?kill him,' and that your running mate didn't mention, didn't stop, didn't say, ?Hold on a second, that's kind of out of line.'"

McCain (response): "Let me just say categorically I'm proud of the people that come to our rallies."

This kind of sentiment in the rallies echoes rallies of fascist parties in pre-WWII Europe. This is quite chilling for me, especially since it is happening in the so-called "Land of the Free."

I'm pretty sure CNN commented on that, and said that something other than "kill him" was said. Not sure about the terrorist bit.

In my honest opinion, no legislation will get by quickly so long as America is divided into two parties. The solutions to this that I see are:
A: The single party system (Fast laws, fast violations)
B: The No-Party system (Faster now with Internet)
C: The New German system (More votes = more seats, so many parties that people have to look at the issues)
D: Annihilation (It's easy to legislate in the Afterlife, just refer all accommodation issues to your local heaven/hell chief executive via prayer/scream)

Insert Congressional Term Limit for all but D.

 

[Girlysprite]

The funny thing with socialism is, that if it works well, it supports itself too.

People will get better education--> people get better jobs ---> people get paid more ---> people can pay more taxes ---> money can be spent on better education.

 

[asamoah19]

... and Obama isn't given to resorting to fascist remarks in order to promote his chances at winning the election.

EDIT: Sources for my statements: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/pers-o23.shtml and http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/elec-s13.shtml

Please cease your misuse od the word fascism.
Fascism is a rejection of the individual as an entity seperate from the state. Social intervention (for example welfare,) protectionism (abolishing NAFTA,) collectivism (the welfare of the poor is as/more important than your own) are all aspects of fascism.
The only big difference between fascism and the middle stages of communism is that communism's goal is a classless society, whereas fascism prefers a society with well-defined classes which cooperate for the benefit of the nation as a whole.

From Obama's comments, he does not seem fascist so much as communist, since spreading the wealth around implies elimination of classes. Socialism, however, is an integral component of both fascism and communism.

If you're going to throw insults at the republican party, call them theocrats or.. I don't know, what do you call a participant in a military dictatorship? Whatever that is. Fascism and communism is the domain of the democratic party.

Obama's tax cuts would benefit me, but I don't want them subsidized by the wealthy, I'd prefer by not turning our health care system into the UK's or Canada's (you don't have to worry about paying, you do have to be worry about being treated, or fed.)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1039562/Number-elderly-patients-starving-NHS-wards-doubles-30-000-years.html

Please, please, please, do not use the Daily sodding Mail as a source, its a sensationalist tabloid which used to be a serious broadsheet about 50 years ago. Its full of spin, hype and every other day it moans about the NHS or Immigrants, if you are looking for good source material use one of these papers to represent my countries media:

The Times - Centre Right, owned by Murdoch (conservative)
The Financial Time - Independant papaer, Financially Liberal
The Telegraph - Centre Right (conservative, less so than in the past)
The Independant - Centre Left (liberal)
The Sunday Times - Rightwing, again Murdoch (very conservative, though did back our Socialist labour governement at the last election)
The Guardian/The Observer (sunday format) - Centre Left (liberal, with some conservative bias on NHS and Imigration)

To be frank anything else is a joke.

Also, just a note as pretty much everything has already been said.

Socialism has been a part of British polotics since the 1800's social reform for the poor and elderly in london marelybone movement and Benjamin Chamberlain's housing plans are the basis for many modern social concepts on housing and health care. Factory owners with a socialist slant are responsible for building towns around their factories (notably Bourneville in the midlands, for the Cadbury Factory), which were of such a high standard that it forced the government of the time to bring in acts making heating and running water compulsory. In modern times, after the second world war we accepted un-fasionable socialist reforms in our economy, our state pensions, health care and social services. We only pay out 20% (on average) of our pay checks for all our tax and our National Insurance and trust me I am gald for it, I come from a typical middle class family, our expenditure is close to matching our outgoings most months, and boy am I thankful that when I was 11 and had two compund fractures to my arm, and that I was able to go straight into hospital and have my correcting operation for free the next day, (it was delayed by 12 hours becuase there had been a major motorway pile up and the hospital was flooded) I am thankful that I only pay about $50 when i need my eyes tested and have to get new glasses, I'm so terribly glad that my university education is heavily subsidised by the government, and I am so thankful that my grandmothers are cared for amply by their state pensions, there local health visitors and doctors... EVERY SINGLE PENNY FUNDED BY SOCIALISM.

( I will be happy to provide sources if required, I have direct references to my text books that I used when I studied Social and Economic Hitosry)

 

[Aardvark Soup]

Barack Obama leans more towards social-democracy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democratic], which is a good thing in my opinion. However, from a Western European perspective, he would probably be classified as a centre-left liberal or maybe even a Christian democrat, but certainly not as a socialist.

 

[asamoah19]

I'd call him centre left, with some centre right leanings, ie Lib Dem