Barack Obama and Socialism

[vxicepickxv]

My Sarcasm meter is in the shop, so I can't tell.

 

[317070]

Yup, many places in Europe they (real Americans) would be called hard right-wing and hopefully outside the government. Whereas what they call socialist (or even communist) are the norm in Europe.

True, something very funny I think.
I think it's a relief to know I will easily send all 4 of my kids to college without worrying too much about funding. I think it's a relief to know that even when they are terrible students they won't end up in poverty. I think it's a relief to know when I awake fully paralized tomorrow I will most probably still be able to pay my bills. I think it's a relief to know if I loose my job tomorrow, I still will cope.

Yes, I pay here in Belgium almost 50% of my income to taxes, but I wouldn't want it to be otherwise. I know some of that money goes to (a very small minority) which doesn't deserve it, but there are mechanisms to reduce those people...

And don't oversimplify the "the more you get, the more you'll pay" thing (from joe the plumber). Sure, he pays more just as I do, but if he'll work harder, he will still earn more, no matter what. It only sounds bad when you talk about it in the oversimplified way!

 

[ianuam]

The guy's not a socialist. By our european standards, he's conservative. Furthermore, it makes me sick every time i see a republican whine about free healthcare, for the love of (non existent) god, people are dying in the richest country in the world because they can't afford medical treatment. It's disgraceful.

 

[stevetastic]

Hmm I think our average income/GDP per capita would disagree not to mention lower taxes. [/quote]

yeah but you have overflowing prisons, a ridiculous amount of racism and religious extremism and the rest of the world hates you.

 

[Alex_P]

yeah but you have overflowing prisons, a ridiculous amount of racism and religious extremism and the rest of the world hates you.

You realize that Europe also has a ridiculous amount of racism, too, right? You just have a smaller and more cloistered immigrant population so racial tensions express differently.

-- Alex

 

[scarbunny]

Hmm I think our average income/GDP per capita would disagree not to mention lower taxes.

Lower taxes than where? I pay a total of 10% of my earnings on tax.

 

[stevetastic]

yeah but you have overflowing prisons, a ridiculous amount of racism and religious extremism and the rest of the world hates you.

You realize that Europe also has a ridiculous amount of racism, too, right? You just have a smaller and more cloistered immigrant population so racial tensions express differently.

-- Alex

sorry i always speak as if the rest of Britain is Like London which is a lot more multicultural and there's little racism. (apart from Barkingside but thats a shithole)

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

People need to understand that the middle class is disappearing, everyone in the counrty is either becoming more rich or more poor, that means we are turning from a capitalist society into something else, (maybe fuedalism) you know things are fucked up when the structure of your workforce is changing. Anyway, what is wrong with socialized medicine? I mean if medicine is the only thing that really changes, then who cares? it is the 21st motherfucking century, why is medical care for the masses a bad thing. this is fucking America, we should care about the downtrodden and the poor. also I whole-heartedly agree with Dr. Spaceman.

 

[FanDam]

"Taxes are always a redistribution of money. Most of the taxes that are redistributed go back to those who paid them, in roads and airports and hospitals and schools. And taxes are necessary for the common good. And there is nothing wrong with examining what our tax structure is or who should be paying more, who should be paying less. And for us to say that that makes you a socialist, I think is an unfortunate characterization that isn't accurate.

"I don't want my taxes raised. I don't want anybody else's taxes raised. But I also want to see our infrastructure fixed. I don't want to have a $12 trillion national debt, and I don't want to see an annual deficit that's over $500 billion heading toward a trillion. So, how do we deal with all of this?" - Gen. Colin Powell

 

[Anton P. Nym]

And then real Americans would be very confused as to how evil super socialist countries in Europe have higher standards of living and freedom indices than their real America.

Hmm I think our average income/GDP per capita would disagree not to mention lower taxes.

However the much higher infant mortality rates and notably lower average lifespan figures in the US indicate that European countries do indeed have a better standard of living. GDP per capita doesn't mean everything, it's one metric only. Plus, as others have pointed out, the US keeps more people in prison than China as a gross figure, let alone per capita; that's another metric to watch.

-- Steve

edited to add: I just recalled why GDP per capita isn't the best measure of prosperity... it's a mean figure, averaged over the entire population, and can be skewed by having a few very prosperous people "tent-poleing" an otherwise low figure.

 

[freakyHippo]

Some raise valid points about aspects of socialism we already incorporate, but what you have to understand about communism and socialism is that it's like red wine. In small doses, a glass or two, it isn't harmful - even beneficial. A couple glasses is fine - public schools and libraries. Three or four drinks is pushing it - welfare programs, social security...you start in on the 5th and 6th drinks - socialized health care, and you start getting tipsy. Soon you start drinking more and more - redistributing the wealth - and before long the red wine will have lost all health benefits and you'll end up face down on the floor pissing yourself.

What your basically saying is the USA is a lightweight?

Honestly i have nothing of value to add to this debate, but this was a joke making oppertunity too good to pass up

ignore me, carry on

 

[vxicepickxv]

People need to understand that the middle class is disappearing, everyone in the counrty is either becoming more rich or more poor, that means we are turning from a capitalist society into something else, (maybe fuedalism) you know things are fucked up when the structure of your workforce is changing. Anyway, what is wrong with socialized medicine? I mean if medicine is the only thing that really changes, then who cares? it is the 21st motherfucking century, why is medical care for the masses a bad thing. this is fucking America, we should care about the downtrodden and the poor. also I whole-heartedly agree with Dr. Spaceman.

The rich get richer, and the poor get more plentiful.

It's the complete me first attitude that pervades most of America for the medical care thing.

 

[317070]

And then real Americans would be very confused as to how evil super socialist countries in Europe have higher standards of living and freedom indices than their real America.

Hmm I think our average income/GDP per capita would disagree not to mention lower taxes.

However the much higher infant mortality rates and notably lower average lifespan figures in the US indicate that European countries do indeed have a better standard of living. GDP per capita doesn't mean everything, it's one metric only. Plus, as others have pointed out, the US keeps more people in prison than China as a gross figure, let alone per capita; that's another metric to watch.

-- Steve

Or what about environment, public transport, third world aid? Poverty-rate, income-difference between top and lowest 10%, quality of the education, privacy?

*Most of which are rated higher in the Europe of 15 than in the US(the ones which aren't are Poverty-rate and income-difference between top and lowest 10%, which are actually lower in Europe) (source: wikipedia, both sites about European Union and USA)

 

[Rankao]

Theres a difference between keeping society from collapsing (I'm talking about some warefare and schools, not the crisis crap) America has always been know for the oppertunity it has. Almost everyone who has came to America didn't have a dollar to their name and yet now their decedents are doing pretty damn well for themselves compared to starving in the street of Tegucigalpa.

Hang on, can you name an American President who did not come from a very wealthy background?

The land of opportunity stuff is pretty good when you want to make a speech, but wouldn't it be far better to have most people living pretty well, at the expense of a few living incredibly well?
I'm not suggesting full scale socialism or communal farms, but maybe just I dunno, free healthcare and tertiary education? Is that too much to ask?

Abraham Lincoln, and I bet I could find one if I did some research, but I am not. Instead I'm going to throw out the quickest easiest answer.

I'm all for government spending money on education, but healthcare is something I have seen first hand done by the government. I lived in Germany for three years and well I can tell you there is a complete difference between those who pay for their own health care and those who have the government pay for it.

We all agree the government tends to be as fast as a sluggish pile of shit moving through your intestines on form fill outs. The problem with universal health care is that will be treated completely different when you have government insurance then when you commercial. For example, your pretty much treated as if you had no insurance in the first place. And lets face it if everyone could get government health care, they most likely will. This leads to a slow in technology, because some strange reasons it cost a long to get people who are really good at making drugs and medical machines that don't kill people instantly (over time is still an issue).

When I went into the hospitals in Germany I was scared for my life, I though I was going into a Hospital from the 70's.

One of the main problems of America is that cost of living for the average American is anywhere from 90% to 120% of the average income. The problem is if you increase the income the cost of living actually goes up. That the problem both Parties ignore.

I mean the government could offer universal health care but then we would have to increase our taxes by at least 4 or 5% (On everybody, you couldn't pare for health care if you taxed the rich 99% of their income) which doesn't sound like much but when you spend 90% of your income on rent, food, transportation and education you can see the effects of that.

 

[stevetastic]

'We all agree the government tends to be as fast as a sluggish pile of shit moving through your intestines'
thats the most horrific image I've ever got.
it pisses me off when people say Obama has a hardcore socialist friend so he must be one to.
i have a communist dad and i hate communism because it restricts freedoms and censors everything, but i do respect my dad (a bit) doesn't mean i love the motherland or am planning the revolution.

 

[Wyatt]

i read each and every single post in this thread. unusual for me but this topic is importiant in a 'real world' way. im a republican on paper, ive voted republican in the last 2 presidential elections, the first time because i was just sick and tured of the clinton mess, not his policys mind you, but just the whole clinton circus, i voted Bush last time because i believe that you dont change horses in the middle of the stream and that despite Bushes flaws , Kerry just didnt inspire me with his ability to lead any better than Bush was, i was all for getting out of Iraq, but not in a just cut and run kind of way. it is importiant to note however that i was fed up with Bush at this point also. not just because of Iraq but also because so many things of importiance to America were ignored or changed in the service of this war. fianly i admit i was a bit scared for our security, not the kind of scared that kept me awake at night , but the kind of scared that naggs you when your in the voting booth, "is kerry the best defender of our security?" i asked myself. and the answer that led too me clicking Bushes name was ...... no. despite Bushes flaws he never blinked when it came time to pull the trigger on the bad guys.

but now, today, as i look around this nation i see that we have seriously destroyed a large part of what makes America great in this quest for security. torture, spying on our own people, an economy in a total shambles, fellow American left on roof tops, and old people dead in flooded hospitals while the Bush and republicans had their head in the sand in washington managing a war we had no business (as it turns out) getting into in the first place. in short i look back on the clinton circus with fondness. i MISS whitehouse blowjob storys.

the last 8 years have really changed my whole world view, i thought it was bad with clinton ive seen in the last 8 years how bad it can REALLY get, ive seen economic policys by the republicans that champion "free markets" their policys have basicaly given a free hand to letting the 'market' decide how to conduct business in the (as it turns out) insane theory that whats good for american busines is good for America. all you need to do is look at a nes report on wall street to see that it didnt work, in fact not only didnt it work its an EPIC FAIL! and not just America but the rest of the world too.

im not a converted communist by any stretch. i think that a ballanced approach is best for the nation, strong companys ARE an asset for America as a whole, but at the same time there is a limit. it does no good to have a strong company if the benifits of that company DONT 'trickle down' to the nation they are part of and exploit. in short i say you can let companys regulate themselves within limits, but those limits are when America as a whole takes second place to the needs and whishes of those companys.

there is a flaw in human nature that to my mind goes something like this, it takes a certian kind of person to build a big multibillion doller company, there is a certian level of pride and yes greed that goes with that ability to biuld a company like that. there is nothing really wrong with that kind of a person, lets face it without out industry America would be shit. we owe much of what makes America great to the strength of our economy, but at the same time those kind of people seldom have the calling to use their money and power to help those people that have other prioritys than getting and keeping wealth. they tend to forget that cash ISNT God and a good deed is worth more to a strong society than any ammount of cash locked up in a bank vault someplace.

ill never be rich, not because i lack the ability but because i lack the drive, who i am as a person and what my life is about isnt defined by my bank ballance, but i certianly dont hate those whos lives ARE, it takes ALL kinds of people to make a great nation. the trouble with republicans is they seem to have forgoten everyone else in this nation whose bank ballance isnt their top priority and all you have to do is look around at this nation today to see how wrong they have really been.

anyhow im not for turning America into a communist state, let business run as they like, but at the same time ive no qualms about puting limits on them to insure that the level of greed that is NEEDED to run a mega company isnt left unchecked to the detriment of the rest of us, and we must NEVER forget that the companys what drive OUR economy wouldnt even exist without US. all these profits dont come out of thin air, its the 'little people' that generate them so its certianly not too much too ask these companys to give back some of the excess that they take from us for the benifit of all is it?

 

[stevetastic]

yep 'real' America filled with homo-phobic, racist, redneck, religious extremist, ignorant, unemployed, ill-educated, sister loving, mullet having people who think the world really is 6000 years old.