Bayonetta as a role model

[Rachel317]

I'm sorry but you are victimizing Bayonetta and women on the whole and trying to turn those of us who can see female stereotyping into bad guys.

This game was made to sell sex to horny nerds... That's just how it is.

Don't get pissed at me for stating the obvious.

Like, you can get as mad at you want at people for saying Lara Croft is an objectified woman character... it's still true.

I'm not mad at Lara being objectified...? I'm well aware that she is. I know how she started out. Please, don't try to patronise me. I actually DO know what I'm talking about.

I'm so sick of this. We're all fully aware that Bayonetta is marketed at horny, immature guys. That much is obvious. But your inability to see past this very basic, shallow point of view suggests that you are not particularly qualified to comment.
I don't mind if people have opposing opinions, that's why I posted this thread, to get views and opinions from all sides. The fact is, you are unable to look past YOUR interpretation of her sexualisation. I can clearly see why she would appeal to make gamers. You are unable to see why she would appeal to female gamers. This makes your argument very one-sided, and very sparse.

 

[MrHero17]

This game was made to sell sex to horny nerds... That's just how it is.

This game was made to sell stylish action to fans of DMC and Ninja Gaiden... That's just how it is.

When you just present an opinion like that all it takes is for me to present a contradictory one for things to stalemate, and then that doesn't get things moving anywhere. So i'll end with a question.

Why is Bayonetta selling sex to teenage males while Monkey is not selling sex to teenage women?

For reference

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

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I'm sorry but you are victimizing Bayonetta and women on the whole and trying to turn those of us who can see female stereotyping into bad guys.

This game was made to sell sex to horny nerds... That's just how it is.

Don't get pissed at me for stating the obvious.

Like, you can get as mad at you want at people for saying Lara Croft is an objectified woman character... it's still true.

I'm not mad at Lara being objectified...? I'm well aware that she is. I know how she started out. Please, don't try to patronise me. I actually DO know what I'm talking about.

I'm so sick of this. We're all fully aware that Bayonetta is marketed at horny, immature guys. That much is obvious. But your inability to see past this very basic, shallow point of view suggests that you are not particularly qualified to comment.
I don't mind if people have opposing opinions, that's why I posted this thread, to get views and opinions from all sides. The fact is, you are unable to look past YOUR interpretation of her sexualisation. I can clearly see why she would appeal to make gamers. You are unable to see why she would appeal to female gamers. This makes your argument very one-sided, and very sparse.

And I contend that it is you who is patronizing me by saying that I can't see past her marketing.

Of course I can. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting here. This thread isn't about my opinion... it's about the probability of her general acceptance amongst feminists.

All I'm saying is that the fact that she was literally created to be over sexualized kind of ensures that she is a bad role model. She might have the same independent attitude as, say, Leia... but Leia pulls it off while keeping (relatively) well dressed. (At least until she is forced to wear skanky clothing.)

Basically what I'm saying is that because she dresses like an S&M prostitute, it is hard to take her seriously. (For a girls perspective, try taking any guido from the Jersey Shore seriously... it's hard right?)

Also, keep in mind that while I fail to perfectly see the female side of the coin, you fail to see the male perspective... and this makes your argument equally one-sided.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Bayonetta embodies a contrarian principle at work in most modern academic debate. Hers is an insulting and demeaning depiction of woman, but she so thoroughly owns it as to derive power from it. Is that true empowerment? It is literally impossible to say; we should chalk it up as yet another argument hopelessly stranded by semantics and projection.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

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Sure, double standards are there, but they exist for reasons (and for both men and women).

TRUST ME... They check and balance each other out in the long run.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

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I'm sorry, you're right... this is a stalemate if you can't see that Bayonetta was marketed as just another over sexualized Japanese female lead.

And in case you didn't know (even though I know you did)... sex sells WAYYYYY better to guys.

As a matter of fact the best market of guys to sell sex to is pretty much the gaming generation so... yeah.

 

[terraswrath]

I've been following this discussion for a few days now so decided to make an account to give you my own two cents. Before I get into it I will say that I am female, I have played Bayonetta and enjoyed it immensely. So here goes...

To be honest I don't think much of your argument to begin with because you were misled both to what feminism is and the concept of the 'icon'. You complain about people disagreeing with your point and offering counter-arguments as them 'missing the point', when in reality they simply don't agree with what you are saying. This is bad form, particularly when you change your argument to suit the response you get. One moment Bayonetta's sexuality is an integrated part of her character and this means she's free from the repression of men, the next moment you're berating all counter-arguments that focus on this, even going so far as to call those people perverse in their analysis of the character and that we should be focusing on her personality. This is making your own points come across as more and more convoluted by the post.

The simple fact is Bayonetta is a sexual being in all aspects of her character. Her physicality, her design, drives the character as typical in Eastern game character development. Saying that this is not so is simply farsical. Did you know that the reason Bayonetta doesn't have holsters was because they felt that they weren't "feminine" enough for her? That the integration of glasses as making her seem "mysterious" is superceded by Kamiya's 'preference' of women wearing glasses? That the derringer pistol was approved because as a weapon it would look "hot" in the hands of a female? Coming from this from a design perspective all this leads to her being set up as a sex object.

You're falling into the trap that many Literature students fall into: treating the character as a real person. She doesn't 'choose' to dress that way, she doesn't 'choose' to say suggestive one-liners. In fact, it's even more damaging than literature, because all of this was designed to visually appeal to the player. Those enemies that she's talking to suggestively don't exist. It's all for the player. You talk about her being a 'strong woman' as if that isn't sexually appealling to the gamer. Wanna bet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tPN2NEmQ38&feature=player_embedded Yeah, this was PR for the game. Advertising through Playboy, encouraging the objectification of Bayonetta for the male audience. Right. See the problem here? It's that the approach to Bayonetta's sexuality in the game isn't explored more than it is showcased. It's just there. It makes her come across as schizophrenic, because I do agree with you that she has a deeper personality, but it's lost in the focus on her physical form. And that isn't the player's fault for seeing it, it's the developers' fault for creating that focus. They're seeing what they were meant to see, what she was designed for them to see.

Put simply, why will Bayonetta never be the blazing worldwide icon you seem to want her to be? Because the was commissioned as DMC with a female protagonist. Lara Croft is so recognisable because she was a breakthrough for the gaming industry: a female lead that harbours the 'Indiana Jones' masculine role to counteract the female stereotypes that came before her (stereotypes that Bayonetta reinforces). This type of character was unheard of and posed a threat to the success of the game, because she represented something new, fresh, and radical and yet succeeded, and that is why she's become so deeply ingrained into the industry's history. What is Bayonetta? Kamiya summed it up in his design objectives - 'a female lead, a modern witch, she uses four guns'. As someone in this thread previously stated, it didn't have a huge impact and wasn't particularly innovative in any way.

I'll also stick with Lara by pointing out that your main argument against Lara is the size of her breasts, but this was a development accident that they decided not to fix. They then increased the polygons of her model in subsequent games to give her the appropriate proportions (curves, etc.), restricted as they were to the technology at the time. Fast forward to the series today and Lara's 'assets' are at a realistic size. As much as you argue that 'the lead designer was a woman' for Bayonetta, all this suggests to me is that you are insinuating women cannot objectify women. It still doesn't get around the fact that they're on record saying that they "spent hours designing the perfect ass/lips".

Frankly, this isn't going to be an argument that has winners or losers, it's one that's been going on for centuries - well before feminism - and it isn't going to be answered now. I find it appalling that people here are willing to suggest that others who don't agree that a certain video game character doesn't fulfill a role as a feminist icon are ignorant to equality. If you see it, fine, you're entitled to your beliefs, but so are other people and they may see a more appropriate icon in Boudica, Mary Shelley, or maybe even Lara Croft. It's quite clear that no one is going to change your mind and to be honest, no one is trying to. They're giving reasons why they disagree, and if it's because they feel that feminist representation shouldn't hinge on sexuality, then that doesn't give you the right to throw ridiculous assumptions around. Grow up.

 

[Rachel317]

And I contend that it is you who is patronizing me by saying that I can't see past her marketing.

Of course I can. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting here. This thread isn't about my opinion... it's about the probability of her general acceptance amongst feminists.

All I'm saying is that the fact that she was literally created to be over sexualized kind of ensures that she is a bad role model. She might have the same independent attitude as, say, Leia... but Leia pulls it off while keeping (relatively) well dressed. (At least until she is forced to wear skanky clothing.)

Basically what I'm saying is that because she dresses like an S&M prostitute, it is hard to take her seriously. (For a girls perspective, try taking any guido from the Jersey Shore seriously... it's hard right?)

Also, keep in mind that while I fail to perfectly see the female side of the coin, you fail to see the male perspective... and this makes your argument equally one-sided.

Oh dear. This thread is hardly going to make her into an icon, is it? This IS about everyone's opinion, not just the feminists. Of course it is. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.

So, you can see why she COULD be seen as a feminist icon, or at least a role model, if you look past the marketing? If that's the case, then why are we arguing?
I understand that one of the intentions of making a character like her is to appeal to a certain demographic. However, as I said in the original post, if you weren't meant to see anything deeper in her, they wouldn't have gone through the effort of giving her a personality and back story. They'd have made e game an 18 certificate and included sexual acts. Sex is only ever referenced ONCE throughout the game. The rest is insinuation, so that you can make of it what you will.
Leia...isn't a great example, because she was quite whiny and nagging

But no, I CAN see the male point of view, and that's the point. My love of the character transcends her original intentions and the views of red-blooded males. That's what goes some way to making her an icon - being able to see past one thing to another. I don't see the OTT sexualisation as a bad thing, though. I find it refreshing in games, and I love it when real women are able to embrace their sexuality so completely. The problem we have is that, if a woman IS sexually orientated, it's assumed that she's pandering to men, to get a reaction or attention. This may be the case in some instances, but not all.
If we were able to take the sexual side of Bayonetta ALONG with the other sides of her personality, without one over-shadowing the other, then that might go some way to abolishing the stereotypes. But you will always get the guys who look at women as nothing more than a sexual object and the women who believe that other women are pandering to this perverse, shallow point of view.

I apologise if I didn't articulate that particularly well earlier. But now I understand YOUR point of view more clearly, then we will be able to have a dialogue as opposed to an argument! The intention was to avoid arguments, and have meaningful debates on the matter!

 

[Rachel317]

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Oh dear, once again.
Yes, I instigated the sexuality discussion by bringing it up; what I didn't expect was that sexuality would be ALL that was focused on during this topic.
My point is proven by the fact that your contribution also largely centres around her sexuality and her physical appearance. Man or woman, focusing on one aspect actually IS missing the point. If you are ONLY able to see the sexuality, then that is not the basis for a well-rounded argument. If you see the sexuality along with the character's personality and still believe that she is shamelessly debased for male gratification, then that's fair enough. But, really, shouldn't everyone have a thorough understanding of something BEFORE making an argument out of it? I am well aware of the original intentions of Bayonetta, but choose to see everything else about her as a whole.

As a Literature student, I am well aware of who is real and who is not. You think that the protagonists of books are real? Obviously not; the author has them act in a certain way for their own reasons. The point of being an icon, or at least a role model, is that someone is able to transcend the original intentions of the creator to mean so much more than they really are.

I dint have an argument against Lara, I purely brought her up as a point of comparison, and am happy to see that people have run with it to include her in their arguments, both for and against my original post. This is a good thing, this is what this thread is supposed to be about.

Now, down to the matter of you personally attacking me. I have never once insinuated that anyone is wrong for disagreeing with me, nor have I attacked them for it. I have also not once suggested that anyone does not believe in equality if they don't see what I see; please, if you're going to paraphrase me, paraphrase correctly. Everyone is entitled to see and believe whatever they choose; the point of opening up a discussion HERE as opposed to a board in which I KNOW everyone will agree is to get the conflicting opinions.

And the women objectifying women rubbish...I mention that the lead designer is a woman because people are under the impression that Bayonetta is a creation of a man, for men. Indeed, the woman may be a lesbian who views Bayonetta as a sexual object in the same way a man might. She might also be straight and have no sexual interest in Bayonetta, but knew how well a sexy, female protagonist would be received.
However, I do not see this alone, but the complete package. As I've said before, the original intentions are neither here nor there if a character can be viewed as something more. If we didn't analyse characters, we wouldn't find hidden depths to Hamlet, or Macbeth, or Darcy.

So...I don't think it's particularly fair to come in, all guns blazing, without fully understanding the point, throwing YOUR ridiculous accusations around. Read through the thread properly, and you'll see that the points I have just laid out are justified.

 

[terraswrath]

FYI I mentioned that I'm female because when people were bringing up points prior to this you were assuming that they were male and telling them that they weren't qualified to make an argument because of their gender. I observed this and didn't want you tarring me with the same brush because I agreed with them.

I've explained why my contribution centres around her sexuality - because she's a sexual character by design, and design is key to Eastern game development. The style of the characters fuse the physical and emotional and that's what compels so many gamers to JRPGs and the like. Your original argument was for Bayonetta to become a feminist icon, and I've explained why people are disagreeing with this notion - because of that focus on the physical, it blocks everything out that would have made the character's interactions really shine. The reason a large proportion of people who play the game are just going to react to her physical form is because that's what was marketed to them.

I've said before I agree with you that her personality does lend her to being more than just eye-candy, but I've also explained how it's foregone for the innuendo the game is laden with. Personally I felt the plot had much more potential, but it's all let down by leaving a cutscene that opens up character potential only to go back to the shallow fighting style. And unlike a cutscene it's always there, you can't ignore it, even have to focus on it to advance in the game (by employing her character to use those moves).

You missed my point completely about the character's existence. I wasn't insulting your perceptions of reality at all and I'm sorry that this thread has made you so defensive to have assumed as such (see where these assumptions come in?), I was pointing out that her presentation rests on the game development and how it has a bias towards objectification. You can't escape from that or retcon it to see her character as you want to see it in isolation of a yawning sexual promiscuity that extends to her glasses. This isn't Bayonetta being 'proud of herself'. These aspects of her physical form that were designed specifically to appeal to males. One male in particular. This is how she fails as a feminist icon.

I wasn't personally attacking you at all or coming in 'all guns blazing'. I was pointing flaws in your argument and trying to explain to you why people are inclined to disagree with you. Again, your last paragraph demonstrates my point of your reactions to opposition exactly. I don't agree with you, so I don't fully understand and I haven't read the thread properly, because I can't 'see' the justification in your argument. I have said before. I do. I just don't agree with you, and given my reasons why. Just because I focus on the physical aspects of her character doesn't make my argument invalid, particularly when the game itself is driven by gorgeous visuals and striking models that Kamiya is famous for. Aren't you 'missing the point' yourself by only wanting to focus on her personality?

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I have to say that I disagree. Bayonetta is a caricature of a person, and caricatures don't make for particularly good role-models. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about her as a female character. I mean even her clothes and accessories have more originality to them than she does as a person (im a fan of the gun-heeled shoes).

No Bayonetta, I actually don't want to touch you, as long as I don't have a ten foot pole at hand that is. You are too much of a tired cliché...

 

[Rachel317]

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Hell yes, I completely understand she was originally created to act as fan service. That's an observation that is COMPLETELY unavoidable, and I don't disagree with you on that. As I say, whilst the sexual side of her personality was created for male gamers (predominantly), I like to see her as something more than that. I appreciate that you don't agree with my interpretation, and that's OK! I understand your reasoning for that.

Now that you've said you can see my point of view, then we have no real argument. I appreciate your point of view, and you get mine. The fact we disagree is why I created this topic in the first place!

As I say, I admit to instigating the sexuality discussion, and I do focus on that sometimes, for sure, because it's part of her personality. But that's also what I was hoping other people would do; look at the sexuality ALONGSIDE the other aspects of her. You have, so fair enough, your opinion is just as valid as mine. In reference to previous posts where I've questioned the qualification of the poster's contribution, even if a female gamer had said what they'd said without considering the points I had put forward, I would say the exact same thing. It just happened that it's mainly males who are contributing. If the topic was just "I like Bayonetta, do you?" and people only focused on sexuality, that would be fair enough. But when I've put in the effort to craft an argument, it's not fair to overlook it.

Maybe "feminist icon" is the wrong term, seen as how so many people have different views of what feminism is, so I thank you for pointing that out, and have clarified this in the original post. And if you've read the thread, maybe you can understand why I get defensive! I've already been personally attacked over this point of view, which isn't fair, especially when I haven't been aggressive or verbally abusive towards anyone for a differing opinion.

The thing about your post wasn't that I think you're "wrong" or anything like that (as I say, your opinion is as valid as mine), it was the "grow up" that got my back up. I found that slightly unfair as I'm just trying to justify my opinion by TRYING to educate people on WHY I think the way I do about Bayonetta. You can't say, "I don't fully understand your argument, but I disagree anyway, based on only one observation about Bayonetta" and expect me to not counter this.

To finish, I apologise that this has turned into a bit of an argument, that wasn't the intention. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, although I do understand your point of view.

 

[Rachel317]

I have to say that I disagree. Bayonetta is a caricature of a person, and caricatures don't make for particularly good role-models. There's nothing particularly groundbreaking about her as a female character. I mean even her clothes and accessories have more originality to them than she does as a person (im a fan of the gun-heeled shoes).

No Bayonetta, I actually don't want to touch you, as long as I don't have a ten foot pole at hand that is. You are too much of a tired cliché...

Fair enough. I thought her personality was quite refreshing, it's not something I'm used to seeing in games.
Those shoes ARE awesome, though. The boots themselves are really nice, + a gun = freaking awesome.
I quite liked those leather arm things she had on too.

But I think most video game characters are caricatures, to a certain extent. I don't know about you, but I can't think of many "normal" characters :/

I thought her taunts were pretty funny. I suppose they had more creativity than Jeanne's "You mother f***er!", but yeah, sometimes they were a bit...cringey.
The "How do the Americans put it? Oh yes. Bust a cap in yo' ass" bit early on really gets me. I think it's the English accent which makes it so..."gah!!!"

 

[Sarcastic_Applause]

i was just thinking about this today; really bayonetta is one of the very few female characters i would recommend as a role model, there are so many moments where i think if women were to be like this then i'd go out more (apart from the whole gun slinging, killing angels thing; wouldnt want to get in front of her career. Bayonetta doesnt shy away from issues, rather just confronts them head on, she is open (to an extent), Strong willed, knows what she wants and will NOT be outspoken or have someone in her way.
"if you or anyone were to get in my way i'd have to... how do the americans put it? Oh yes! 'Bust a cap in yo ass'

Hell... Yes!

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

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Well said... and I understand what you mean. But when a girl dresses in uncomfortable clothing that restricts movement simply to show off her body, it is hard not to jump to conclusions. If I see a girl in revealing clothes I can only assume she is either trying to appeal to guys, or being vain. I feel like it simplifies her as a character even if it can be overlooked.

Obviously Bayonetta is a fictional character, so this is some intense over-analysis coming up, but the fact that she is dressed like that makes her seem shallow. Sure, you could say that she is just confident, but it's hard to imagine that she didn't have a much more versatile outfit to do all that fighting in. I believe that basic idea goes through anyone's mind when they see her, and it demeans any other traits that she has.

Basically, I'm saying she could be considered a role model, but she would be a better role model if she dressed normal.

 

[Rachel317]

i was just thinking about this today; really bayonetta is one of the very few female characters i would recommend as a role model, there are so many moments where i think if women were to be like this then i'd go out more (apart from the whole gun slinging, killing angels thing; wouldnt want to get in front of her career. Bayonetta doesnt shy away from issues, rather just confronts them head on, she is open (to an extent), Strong willed, knows what she wants and will NOT be outspoken or have someone in her way.
"if you or anyone were to get in my way i'd have to... how do the americans put it? Oh yes! 'Bust a cap in yo ass'

Hell... Yes!

That bit always makes me cringe. English people should not try to be gangsta!!! Haha.
Still cool though. I would have liked to see more of the cut scenes fully animated. Some of them worked well with the film reel (Bay drawing on Luka's face with lipstick), but it seemed disjointed at times. What do you think of the plot? Everyone says it's either nonsensical, or too complex. I thought it was fantastic!

 

[terraswrath]

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To be honest it wasn't the discussion or you yourself I was saying 'grow up' to, it was the certain individuals in the discussion that were inclined to say those disagreeing in this thread were ignorant of equality. I'm sure you can see how absurd the notion that disagreeing over the suitability of a videogame character as an icon indicates you're anti-feminist, and why I would be insulted by that! I thought I'd clarified that in the paragraph preceding it, but clearly that isn't the case so I apologise.

Trust me when I say I didn't contribute to start an argument but add to the discussion in my own personal way. I felt that people were getting side-tracked and simplifying the argument I've presented by just saying she 'dresses like a whore' (to paraphrase) whereas that isn't the point at all. I've played the game and know very well Bayonetta isn't a whore, I just wish she wasn't so much fanservice! I wasn't trying to threaten your beliefs but as you've said, a feminist viewpoint isn't really appropriate looking at Bayonetta. I think that's why so many people were focusing on sexuality - because the development 'fan service' surrounding her is the fatal flaw in that argument. I think Bayonetta as simply a role model is a much more vibrant notion, and one I can get behind.

Hey look, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot - it seems both our hostilities were created through misunderstanding. I'm happy to agree to disagree now you see my point. Friends?

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Fair enough. I thought her personality was quite refreshing, it's not something I'm used to seeing in games.

Well that's part of what I consider to be unoriginal. It's kind of like they purposefully made Bayonetta "counter-cultural" for the sake of being counter-cultural. There's nothing especially original about that apporach, punk-music and the grass roots of heavy metal dabbled in that decades ago.

Also, as for strong yet sexual heroines being a "new" thing, haven't any of you ever seen Xena - The Warrior Princess? She was around in the 90´s already, and in my opinion she pulled of that "sexy/fighting" routine way better than Bayonetta does.

Bayonetta is just way too obvious, and, as I've said, counter-cultural for the sake of being counter-cultural. Which isn't particularly cool when you think about it. I mean the reason why many of the more memorable heavy metal and punk bands became recognized was due to the fact that they were composed by people who had ideas and messages who inadvertedly became counter-cultural to the current cultural values, more as an after effect than actual premeditation. Then AFTER them came the "posers" (like Kiss or Twisted Sister whose basic message was that they were nothing but attentiongrabbing whores).

And it's kind of the same thing here. Bayonetta is an attentiongrabbing poser only being counter-cultural for the sake of being counter-cultural.

It doesn't serve to portray a very "strong" or "powerful" image at all. It's more like that obnoxious teenage girl who has to be in everyones face because all she want is to be NOTICED!

So that's what I see when I see Bayonetta. She's desperately screaming at me to "notice" her, and the more she does it, the more I just ignore her.

Now I don't mean to sound cold or cruel or vicious here, but that's the way I am so that's how it all comes out. (yes, Bill Hicks quote, but we shared an uncannily similar mindset about many things)

Those shoes ARE awesome, though. The boots themselves are really nice, + a gun = freaking awesome.
I quite liked those leather arm things she had on too.

Of course they are. I mean I couldn't really help but be charmed by those shoes.

Not that im usually particularly inclined to discuss my sexual fetisches but im not going to shy away from admitting that I have a thing for women in high-heels. And aside from that im what you would call a gun enthusiast (if it can be fired, makes loud noises and cause destruction at what I point it at then I probably like it), and the almost dirty combination of the two just seemed incredibly "cute" and somehow personal to me. XD

It's just so sad that they have to be worn by such a boring lady like Bayonetta. : /

And it's pretty strange too, since the person who designed Bayonetta seems to be of some kind of kinship with myself if he (i think it was a guy) could invent something like gun-heeled shoes, and even a catchy name for the character (yes I like the name as well), but still fail to make the character interesting.

But I think most video game characters are caricatures, to a certain extent. I don't know about you, but I can't think of many "normal" characters :/

I could probably dig up a few. The thing is, the caricatures are usually serious attentionwhores by default. That's why you rarely come to think of more "normal" characters in any given game (the caricatures hog the spotlight pretty much all the time). And I doubt you'll find much in the way of "normal" in games like Bayonetta due to their obvious flamboyant nature.

Then again, a lot of j-rpgs and japanese action games suffer a bit from the over-keyed and flamboyant. It seems to be kind of ingrained in the japanese popular culture.

I thought her taunts were pretty funny. I suppose they had more creativity than Jeanne's "You mother f***er!", but yeah, sometimes they were a bit...cringey.
The "How do the Americans put it? Oh yes. Bust a cap in yo' ass" bit early on really gets me. I think it's the English accent which makes it so..."gah!!!"

Hehe, seriously, doesn't that line come from Guy Ritchie's movie "Snatch"?

Turkish: "Well then, why didn't you bust a cap in his ass, Tommy!?"

Tommy: "Are you saying I can't shoot?"

Turkish: "No Tommy, im not saying you can't shoot. I KNOW you can't shoot. What im saying is that six pound pice of shit stuck in your trousers would do more damage if you fed it to him."

Tommy: "Are you saying the gun doesn't fire?"

Turkish: "You've tried it?"

Tommy: *sitting in the passenger seat of the car a few minutes later making a stupid face as he braces for his heavy revolver to fire and it goes: ..."click!"*

Turkish: *completely unsurprised* "Woops!"

XD

Oh well, it's the first time I've heard the phrase in a rather british backdrop.