Bayonetta as a role model

[Rachel317]

Well said... and I understand what you mean. But when a girl dresses in uncomfortable clothing that restricts movement simply to show off her body, it is hard not to jump to conclusions. If I see a girl in revealing clothes I can only assume she is either trying to appeal to guys, or being vain. I feel like it simplifies her as a character even if it can be overlooked.

Obviously Bayonetta is a fictional character, so this is some intense over-analysis coming up, but the fact that she is dressed like that makes her seem shallow. Sure, you could say that she is just confident, but it's hard to imagine that she didn't have a much more versatile outfit to do all that fighting in. I believe that basic idea goes through anyone's mind when they see her, and it demeans any other traits that she has.

Basically, I'm saying she could be considered a role model, but she would be a better role model if she dressed normal.

Possibly. Maybe it's more difficult to take her seriously; that's something I don't necessarily disagree with.
Thing is though, the outfit was made of hair, not leather, so how restricting IS hair, really?

See, that's what the sad thing is; if you saw a woman dressed like that, you'd make assumptions that could be wrong, but it's how society has imposed it's restrictions and expectations upon us. A woman MUST be craving male attention, rather than just "[liking] the little outfits."
Until women, and men for that matter, are able to explore their personalities and sexualities in whichever way they see fit, then this will always be an issue. Hell, I'm guilty of the same thing! If I see a woman done up to the nines, short skirt, fake tan, loads of make up, I automatically think "slut!", whereas she might like to dress like that even when she's alone.
If Bayonetta can be looked at as MORE than a sexual object, then she could help to dispel these sometimes unfair assumptions we hoist upon others. I think that's probably what my whole argument comes down to.

To be honest it wasn't the discussion or you yourself I was saying 'grow up' to, it was the certain individuals in the discussion that were inclined to say those disagreeing in this thread were ignorant of equality. I'm sure you can see how absurd the notion that disagreeing over the suitability of a videogame character as an icon indicates you're anti-feminist, and why I would be insulted by that! I thought I'd clarified that in the paragraph preceding it, but clearly that isn't the case so I apologise.

Of course! If people think she sucks as a role model after considering her strengths, then that's fair enough. Everyone has their own opinion of feminism, nd how it should be tackled. I think sexuality is a big weapon that women/feminists have, whereas others might think it's more about independence or intelligence or...whatever else!
Sorry if you thought I was insinuating this anti-feminist notion.

Trust me when I say I didn't contribute to start an argument but add to the discussion in my own personal way. I felt that people were getting side-tracked and simplifying the argument I've presented by just saying she 'dresses like a whore' (to paraphrase) whereas that isn't the point at all. I've played the game and know very well Bayonetta isn't a whore, I just wish she wasn't so much fanservice! I wasn't trying to threaten your beliefs but as you've said, a feminist viewpoint isn't really appropriate looking at Bayonetta. I think that's why so many people were focusing on sexuality - because the development 'fan service' surrounding her is the fatal flaw in that argument. I think Bayonetta as simply a role model is a much more vibrant notion, and one I can get behind.

I agree with this, actually. As much as I think the sexuality is great, we both know who it's targeted at. I wish she was sexual on her on merits rather than fan service, but that's a difficult thing to present in a game. How do you think they could rectify this? I like the idea of her clothes coming off, but maybe if the outfit wasn't so tight? If they want to present her as a sexually dominant character, then they can't help but market her to randy teens, because gaming is still male orientated

Hey look, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot - it seems both our hostilities were created through misunderstanding. I'm happy to agree to disagree now you see my point. Friends?

Absolutely! I was getting tired of countering the "Have you seen the size of her legs?!?! ZOMG!!!!!!11111" comments

1)Bayonetta flaunts her intelligence whenever she can, just to belittle Luka.

When? I don't recall her ever belittling Luka. In fact, he was the one constantly belittling her, with his accusations.

2)Bayonettas "friendship" with Luka is purely GUILT-based. She killed his Dad!

Have you played the game? If not, I don't want to spoil anything, but there is opposition to this point.
Even if she did kill the dad, wouldn't it have been easier to kill Luka too, than have himm dogging her? But she doesn't, even though she could easily get rid of him with no evidence. She's inherently a good character.

3)Bayonetta is NOT sexually confident... She's totally void of feminine modesty.

Hmm...I can see why you would assume this, but it's not exactly a rule that women should be modest. Why should they be? The time when women were meek, prudish and sexually repressed is (almost) long gone. There aren't any hard and fast rules as to how women should act, but the view that women should never talk about sex or acknowledge they have desires is quite an...old-fashioned, out-dated opinion. I'm very overly sexual (although not in the outwardly flirtatious way that Bayonetta is, but that mainly comes down to lacking her confidence than anything), but that doesn't mean that I cant be modest, or that I'm a slut, or that I'm wrong, right?
BIG differance![/quote]

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Everyone has their own opinion of feminism, nd how it should be tackled.

Yes, it should be tackled with a hard elbowjab to the side making it gasping for air and then you take the opportunity to curb-stomp it to death.

Don't mistake this sour comment of mine as being anti-equality or anything like that. In fact im one of the most fair and consequent pro-gender equality people I know.

It's just that I've come to be severely disillusioned by the ideology known as feminism and it's false claims to wish to promote gender equality. I happen to find gender equality to be a noble and quite logical pursuit, and it grinds my gears when som power hungry pseudo-nazi cunts hijacks that noble goal for their own nefarious purposes like they have done in so many countries already (especially in Sweden where I happen to live).

Thankfully you can be pro-gender equality without having to be a feminist. Feminism doesn't have copyright on the concept of gender equality, and I would even make such a bold claim as to say that feminism stopped being about gender equality decades ago. What you have now is a twisted perversion, designed to chastise and punish men collectively, even to such a degree where you do it in grade school against young boys while at the same time pave the way for womens careers through unfair and unequal affirmative action policies.

That's feminism for you. And until the day I see a substantial number of so called feminists who publicly protest against these policies, and actually denounce the actions of the power hungry cunts, im going to assume that the entire ideology of feminism if forever and irrevocably corrupt and should be opposed.

Pardon my french.

 

[Rachel317]

Well that's part of what I consider to be unoriginal. It's kind of like they purposefully made Bayonetta "counter-cultural" for the sake of being counter-cultural. There's nothing especially original about that apporach, punk-music and the grass roots of heavy metal dabbled in that decades ago.

Hmm...I KINDA see your logic here. Just like she's sexual for the sake of being sexual, as opposed to it doing any great service for women. I DO see where you're coming from. Maybe it's unoriginal in a "she's only original for being unoriginal" kind of way (yes, I know that makes NO sense), but in gaming itself, because it's not the average...I quite like her for it.
Meh, we shall agree to disagree!

Also, as for strong yet sexual heroines being a "new" thing, haven't any of you ever seen Xena - The Warrior Princess? She was around in the 90´s already, and in my opinion she pulled of that "sexy/fighting" routine way better than Bayonetta does.

I must say, I haven't seen Xena. I know of her, though.
I don't deny that there are characters out there who could be described as better role models. I don't doubt that's true! But just as an example of (what I perceive to be) sexual confidence, oozing sex appeal, intelligence, wit and charm, I believe Bayonetta's a good character to look to. Obviously, if you don't see those things, or think they're nonsensical alongside her OTT sexuality, then you won't see her as a good example. Fair enough!

It doesn't serve to portray a very "strong" or "powerful" image at all. It's more like that obnoxious teenage girl who has to be in everyones face because all she want is to be NOTICED!
So that's what I see when I see Bayonetta. She's desperately screaming at me to "notice" her, and the more she does it, the more I just ignore her.

Meh, I can see why you'd say this too. I think she's a Love or Hate character, with no middle ground.
I think part of the problem probably stems from the current view society holds of women. It hasn't particularly progressed in recent years, even though everyone claims it has. Women are still meant to be meek and mild, downplaying sexual desire, etc, which is absolutely not the case.

And it's pretty strange too, since the person who designed Bayonetta seems to be of some kind of kinship with myself if he (i think it was a guy) could invent something like gun-heeled shoes, and even a catchy name for the character (yes I like the name as well), but still fail to make the character interesting.

The lead designer was actually a woman, but that's not to say she doesn't have a fetish for sexy librarian-goth-dominatrices!
Bayonetta IS a cool name. I read a yahoo thing about someone asking whether they should call their child that Everyone was like, "Nooooooooooo, you asshole!!!"
I'd call a child Cereza (beautiful name, IMO), but not Bayonetta! Imagine how picked on the poor girl would be

snip

I completely understand what you're saying. It would seem that feminism has been hi-jacked in order to gain dominance, as opposed to equality.
That's why I emphasised my beliefs on this in the original post; I don't want to be classed as the same. Germaine Greer seems proud of that fact that she's been an "adulteress all [her] life", and I just thought...how feminist can you be, if you're shagging the partner of another woman?

It's just that I've come to be severely disillusioned by the ideology known as feminism and it's false claims to wish to promote gender equality. I happen to find gender equality to be a noble and quite logical pursuit, and it grinds my gears when som power hungry pseudo-nazi cunts hijacks that noble goal for their own nefarious purposes like they have done in so many countries already (especially in Sweden where I happen to live).

Yes, you know, the "I don't need a man!" "feminists" annoy me. If it's all about equality, why do they agree with isolation, separation, and segregation?

That's feminism for you. And until the day I see a substantial number of so called feminists who publicly protest against these policies, and actually denounce the actions of the power hungry cunts, im going to assume that the entire ideology of feminism if forever and irrevocably corrupt and should be opposed.

Pardon my french.

French pardoned! Again, I completely agree. I DO believe that sexuality is a BIG player when it comes to feminism. Yes, men have their own sexuality, but it's not nearly explored as much as women's, in most aspects of life. Feminism as in striving for equality can only ever be a good thing. Even in the current time, women still don't earn as much as men (in certain areas of the world, and business), women are still looked upon as the "fairer sex"...

But, I think what it really comes down to, is that SOME women are all for equality...when it suits them. What I mean, is that they expect to get the same wages, yet still want chivalry. They want to be seen as more than just the "mother" or "housekeeper", but still want a man to pay for their dates, clothes, and other such things. Not ALL women, mind you. I'm not trying to generalise TOO much here, but SOME women are like this. I KNOW women like this

 

[captaincabbage]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

lol I was going to post loltits as well, but then I read and I came out the same as you.

Also, you have an EPIC avatar.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I must say, I haven't seen Xena. I know of her, though.

:O

Lucy Lawless in leather armour and a sword beating all manner of mythical creatures from Greek mythology with just as much ferocity (although unfortunately with a lot less bloodshed) as dear old Kratos from the God of War series is a spectacle that should be enjoyed by everyone before they die.

Of course it's not a series that takes itself very serious all the time, but that's part of the appeal. If you're gonna re-write pretty much every part of Greek mythology then you can't really do it with a straight face, wouldn't you agree?

Meh, I can see why you'd say this too. I think she's a Love or Hate character, with no middle ground.

Probably. I should know being pretty much a Love or Hate character myself. (mostly Hate though, but that's beside the point) XD

I think part of the problem probably stems from the current view society holds of women. It hasn't particularly progressed in recent years, even though everyone claims it has. Women are still meant to be meek and mild, downplaying sexual desire, etc, which is absolutely not the case.

That's all very possible but I have to say that im more a product of the progressed ideals of society than conservative.

In my eyes, hypersexualized women are just boring clichés. I've simply grown too used to it. And I've also grown used to the popular views of sex in the modern climate. It's like people are like single-minded apes only looking to score the next fuck.

I had an encounter with a girl pretty recently who was completely surprised that I'd actually displayed interest in her personality and her thoughts about things not related to sex. It was like the concept was completely alien to her.

And it's this mentality of "just because it's modern times and we CAN do something, we have to OVERDO things" which is quickly becoming a cliché in my eyes. It's one of the many things which makes me into the misanthropic prick that I am most of the time.

I just thought I should tell you that. It's not really an issue (in my case at least) of my view of women or women ideals being conservative or anything. It's more of an issue where I've encountered the "new" and "progressed" mindset far too many times and it's made me disillusioned and bored.

Too much bullshit and bravado, and very little substance and realism. Even in REAL people. Weird, isn't it?

The lead designer was actually a woman, but that's not to say she doesn't have a fetish for sexy librarian-goth-dominatrices!

Okay, im not going to cite any sources now simply because I don't remember where I read it, but from what I had read, the designer of Bayonetta was a man who basically invented his version of the ideal woman or something like that. But I could be wrongly informed so im not going to make any final statements about it.

Bayonetta IS a cool name. I read a yahoo thing about someone asking whether they should call their child that Everyone was like, "Nooooooooooo, you asshole!!!"
I'd call a child Cereza (beautiful name, IMO), but not Bayonetta! Imagine how picked on the poor girl would be

Bah! Kids are monsters protected by prejudicial concepts about innocence. They will always find a reason to pick on someone if they can, so worrying about a name seems kind of redundant.

Eve if a kid gets picked on, most of them grow up and have to grow stronger from the ordeal. Also they often become very independent individuals with sound and fair values since they have had first hand experience with obnoxious and unfair people before. (I guess im speaking a bit from personal experience here)

High pressure might crush pieces of coal, but it can also result in diamonds.

I completely understand what you're saying. It would seem that feminism has been hi-jacked in order to gain dominance, as opposed to equality.
That's why I emphasised my beliefs on this in the original post; I don't want to be classed as the same. Germaine Greer seems proud of that fact that she's been an "adulteress all [her] life", and I just thought...how feminist can you be, if you're shagging the partner of another woman?

Splendid. Then I think I can assume that we at least have similar values. It's just that I want to dissasociate myself from feminism altogether, despite being pro-gender equality.

I don't believe in trying to repair sinking ships.

Yes, you know, the "I don't need a man!" "feminists" annoy me. If it's all about equality, why do they agree with isolation, separation, and segregation?

And worst of all: discrimination?

You'd think that the gender having a long history of gender discrimination being the gender who fully opposes unfair discrimination in all it's forms. Yet still you see the same people cheering along when the government tries to impose affirmative action policies with the goal of "helping" poor and useless women to more prominent positions in schools and the job market.

I mean isn't one of the core beliefes of gender equality that women are just as capable as men to perform a wide variety of jobs, and that they are equally competitive on the job market? Yet they propose that the government should step in and help all those "damsels in distress" who just blame their lousy situation on fantasy-enemies like "patriarch structures"?

It's easier to just blame poorly proven conspiracies than to actually work your way to a decent career and demand that the government hands you your career on a silver platter, right? And thus inadvertedly promoting discrimination against men. Companies and institutions are forced by the government to hire a set quota of women and men, ultimately leading to cases where a male applicant might be a lot more educated and competent for the task, but getting rejected because the institution in question HAD TO hire a woman to fill that slot.

But then again, unfair discrimination is only bad when it happens to women, right?

Grrr, fucking feminists.

French pardoned! Again, I completely agree. I DO believe that sexuality is a BIG player when it comes to feminism. Yes, men have their own sexuality, but it's not nearly explored as much as women's, in most aspects of life.

Nope. Male sexuality just gets written off as being rape by nature instead. Ain't life grand?

Feminism as in striving for equality can only ever be a good thing. Even in the current time, women still don't earn as much as men (in certain areas of the world, and business), women are still looked upon as the "fairer sex"...

Well personally I don't consider it an inherent bad thing that women don't make as much as men.

I mean, yes the statistics say that men make more money than women. However, if there is one thing that statistics are pretty lousy at doing is proving WHY a situation looks like it does. Mostly, statistics only show HOW a situation looks.

Most feminists have chosen to interpret said statistics as a clear sign that the western world is afflicted by patriarchal structures serving to hold women down from realizing their true potential. BUT when said feminists are asked to present evidence for their conspiracy theories, none can come up with anything substantial. Yet they are strongly convinced that differences in salaries are obvious signs of gender discrimination.

One could wonder if these women have ever been to a job interview and learned of the fact that when it comes to salary, a shitload of private companies and governmental institutions practice salary negotiations. And more importantly, there are statistics showing that a lot of women go for significantly lower pay during these negotiations than men do.

Why this happens is up for debate, but if we're for gender equality here and opposed to gender discrimination, wouldn't a more reasonable course of action be to try to educate women during critical stages in their lives to value their work effort higher and how to successfully negotiate higher pay grades during job interviews? Instead of using the government to force private companies to use a more discriminatory policy when hiring and paying people?

Which of these courses of action do you think seem like siezure of power as opposed to reasonable and progressive policy?

But, I think what it really comes down to, is that SOME women are all for equality...when it suits them. What I mean, is that they expect to get the same wages, yet still want chivalry. They want to be seen as more than just the "mother" or "housekeeper", but still want a man to pay for their dates, clothes, and other such things. Not ALL women, mind you. I'm not trying to generalise TOO much here, but SOME women are like this. I KNOW women like this

I know exactly which you are refering to, and trust me when I say that they make me want to puke.

 

[hazabaza1]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

lol I was going to post loltits as well, but then I read and I came out the same as you.

Also, you have an EPIC avatar.

Why thank you!
Though I should probably thank the Avatar group on the Escapist, nice fellas them.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I have to agree with much of what the TC says. I think Bayonetta is a great character (also my 2010 GOTY); her character is kinda like the female version of Ash from Evil Dead II and Army of Darkness. Her sexuality is played for laughs just like how Ash's one-liners towards women are. Why can't female character's be like their macho male counterparts (e.g. Ash, Duke Nukem, etc.)? Isn't the real reason for the aforementioned male characters treating women the way they do is so they can get a feel for whether a women is into them without looking like they got rejected?

I'm not sure if Bayonetta can be seen as a feminism icon just because lots of scenes and interactions are played for laughs. Also, due to a friend of mine, I see feminism as a bad thing because she's all about the I hate men thing and everything, and extremely opinionated to a fault. I have nothing against equality for anyone, but my friend is always trying to put guys down just to do it. For example, she got on me one time for not knowing what person originated some concept (some kind of "ism") even though I knew exactly what the concept was and how to apply it, which IMO is far more important than knowing who came up with it.

What I do love about Bayonetta is that she doesn't play any games like most women. You are going to know if she does like you or not, she's not going to sit in a corner and wait for you to come up to her. I think the thing is that most women seem to believe they are entitled to be in the position of being asked out and they want equality. The man is expected to put himself out there and the female is the one reacting. Constantly being in that superior position will cost you equality other areas. I think a relationship with Bayonetta would reach that "serious" stage when she becomes comfortable and LETS you take the lead whereas the guy normally has that position from the very beginning.

Bayonetta is also a strong moral character. She does the right thing while acting like she doesn't want to, and you know she wants to because she goes out of her way to do the right thing. She just doesn't want to show any weakness because doing the right thing usually puts you in a more vulnerable situation than the wrong thing.

Lastly, Bayonetta is just that kind of person you'd like to be around whether it's just as friends or something more. She wears her emotions on her sleeves and she's not going to play any games.

Coming back to the feminism part. I think Bayonetta is just showing you that women have the ability to be the kind of person she is NOT that they have to or should be. Some people are just more reserved than others whether male or female. Just be who you are and not let society tell you how to be. I'm positive the game wasn't intended to be some kind of commentary on this kind of stuff but a lot times you get a more sincere and applicable message when a piece of art (movies, music, games, etc.) doesn't purposefully try to have some kind of social commentary.

 

[Rachel317]

In my eyes, hypersexualized women are just boring clichés. I've simply grown too used to it. And I've also grown used to the popular views of sex in the modern climate. It's like people are like single-minded apes only looking to score the next fuck.

Too much bullshit and bravado, and very little substance and realism. Even in REAL people. Weird, isn't it?

I must say, your story was unusual, to say the least. These highly sexual women...I've not really had the pleasure of dealing with one who wasn't just trying to get the attention of men, which is where some of m concern stems from. It's a shame that women are surprised by your approach, but if everyone (even women themselves) see their actions as a means of "getting" a man, then there isn't any real progression.

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite overly sexual most of the time (although not in the outwardly flirtatious way that Bayonetta is, but that's due to lacking her confidence more than anything), but it's NOT for anyone else but myself, because It's the way I am. When more women are able to act how THEY want to without having to think about how their actions re being perceived, then this issue will still exist. Same goes for men, but I think perhaps to a lesser extent?

Okay, im not going to cite any sources now simply because I don't remember where I read it, but from what I had read, the designer of Bayonetta was a mwho basically invented his version of the ideal woman or something like that. But I could be wrongly informed so im not going to make any final statements about it.

The lead animator is a man (the one who wanted the "perfectly sculpted ass") is a man, but it was a woman who originally designed Bayonetta. Kimaya (spelling) wanted glasses and yadda yadda, so she put them in.

Bah! Kids are monsters protected by prejudicial concepts about innocence. They will always find a reason to pick on someone if they can, so worrying about a name seems kind of redundant.

True...but do you want to make a child a bigger target, or a smaller one?
It can make a child stronger, but it can also damage them beyond repair. It's a fine line. I'm all for unusual names, but Bayonetta is a relatively violent sounding name on its own, without the context of the game.

You'd think that the gender having a long history of gender discrimination being the gender who fully opposes unfair discrimination in all it's forms. Yet still you see the same people cheering along when the government tries to impose affirmative action policies with the goal of "helping" poor and useless women to more prominent positions in schools and the job market.

I will admit, I'm not familiar with all branches and philosophies of feminism, partly because I don't have the time, nor patience, to entertain everyone's individual/unique ideas of what feminism is but, yes, you'd think women more than anyone would understand the kind of suffering that goes along with repression.

But part of the problem...well, to give an actual example, I know people who will see a woman in a position of power and believe that she must have "fucked and sucked her way to the top". So, people STILL have this outdated view of women, and don't even realise they do!

Well personally I don't consider it an inherent bad thing that women don't make as much as men.

There ARE studies to show that women aren't as strong-willed in the negotiation stakes as men. This isn't being sexist at all, but you're right, often women DO accept lower wages.
However, this is, in part, also due to society's perception. If a man fights for a raise, he's a "go-getter". If a woman does the same, she's a "money grabbing *****". I wouldn't like to count how many times I've heard that. On the same note, a woman is a "gold-digger" if she dates an older man. However, a young man with an older woman is celebrated.

I'm not sure if Bayonetta can be seen as a feminism icon just because lots of scenes and interactions are played for laughs. Also, due to a friend of mine, I see feminism as a bad thing because she's all about the I hate men thing and everything, and extremely opinionated to a fault. I have nothing against equality for anyone, but my friend is always trying to put guys down just to do it. For example, she got on me one time for not knowing what person originated some concept (some kind of "ism") even though I knew exactly what the concept was and how to apply it, which IMO is far more important than knowing who came up with it.

It sounds like your friend is being highly unfair. You can agree with equality and not buy into the extremist feminist rubbish. Putting males down is exactly what has been happening to females for years, so you'd think women would understand the implications of repression, and avoid dong it to others!
I mean, it's never going to get to the point where men ARE repressed; they own too much of the media, and have more control over the world's economy and politics than women. But TRYING to dominate is wrong as well. What happened, happened, there's no changing the past. Black people don't try to dominate White people. The Jews don't try to kill all of the Germans. Sure, bad feelings are still harboured by some, but repeating the mistakes of the past isn't the way forward.

What I do love about Bayonetta is that she doesn't play any games like most women. You are going to know if she does like you or not, she's not going to sit in a corner and wait for you to come up to her. I think the thing is that most women seem to believe they are entitled to be in the position of being asked out and they want equality. The man is expected to put himself out there and the female is the one reacting. Constantly being in that superior position will cost you equality other areas. I think a relationship with Bayonetta would reach that "serious" stage when she becomes comfortable and LETS you take the lead whereas the guy normally has that position from the very beginning.

Oh yes, some women still want chivalry, yet also equality. The two...they CAN both be entertained, but women have to give something back as well. I don't know, maybe men LIKE to be the pursuer? But that's difficult, because if it's unwanted attention, it's harrassment, but a woman wont necessarily tell you this; possibly due to fear over her safety, or whatever else. This is a two way street; women need to realise that it'd be easier if they were more forthright, but men must realise that women flirt for the sake of it, it's not necessarily specifically to attract a man's attention. As I say, until both genders can explore their sexualities in a way they see fit, without hinderance or discrimination of any kind, then the issues will still exist.

Bayonetta is also a strong moral character. She does the right thing while acting like she doesn't want to, and you know she wants to because she goes out of her way to do the right thing. She just doesn't want to show any weakness because doing the right thing usually puts you in a more vulnerable situation than the wrong thing.

Lastly, Bayonetta is just that kind of person you'd like to be around whether it's just as friends or something more. She wears her emotions on her sleeves and she's not going to play any games.

This...is so perfectly said. Would you mind if I quote this in the original post? I hadn't even gone into the morality thing, but this is just so perfectly worded.
And...I'd be friends with her! I don't like the women who go out, high heels, short skirts, breasts hanging out, troweled on make up when she has an agenda. It's just so fake! But I have utmost respect for women who are sexually confident, like Bayonetta, when it's part of their character, and that's who they REALLY are, not just a fantasized version of themselves in order to get male attention. Could not agree more.

Coming back to the feminism part. I think Bayonetta is just showing you that women have the ability to be the kind of person she is NOT that they have to or should be. Some people are just more reserved than others whether male or female. Just be who you are and not let society tell you how to be. I'm positive the game wasn't intended to be some kind of commentary on this kind of stuff but a lot times you get a more sincere and applicable message when a piece of art (movies, music, games, etc.) doesn't purposefully try to have some kind of social commentary.

Exactly; looking deeper into a character is where you find all the good stuff. Sexuality for the sake of being sexual is fine, but if some people are able to read more into it, then that's fine too. Again, would you mind if I use this segment in the original post too?
You've perfectly summed up my feelings on the matter, AND added to it!

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I must say, your story was unusual, to say the least. These highly sexual women...I've not really had the pleasure of dealing with one who wasn't just trying to get the attention of men, which is where some of m concern stems from. It's a shame that women are surprised by your approach, but if everyone (even women themselves) see their actions as a means of "getting" a man, then there isn't any real progression.

Well, im no really going to speculate why they act the way they do. But atentiongrabbing must certainly have come into it somehow. Then again, you pretty much have to get peoples attention if you're a sexual person.

After all, if you want to score with someone it's going to be pretty difficult to do that if you can't even get their attention. That goes for both men and women.

So I guess my main gripe isn't really that horny people try to get attention in order to score. What makes me cynical and bored is the fact that the current culture seem to breed people into thinking of nothing else but scoring with the next person.

I mean, there's an entire UNIVERSE out there for fuck sake, but these people couldn't care less about anything outside of how they are going to be percieved as attractive in the eyes of others.

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite overly sexual most of the time (although not in the outwardly flirtatious way that Bayonetta is, but that's due to lacking her confidence more than anything), but it's NOT for anyone else but myself, because It's the way I am. When more women are able to act how THEY want to without having to think about how their actions re being perceived, then this issue will still exist. Same goes for men, but I think perhaps to a lesser extent?

Well, I have to say that I think the progression towards not caring to much about how you will be percieved by your action is a personal/"spiritual" journey which is kind of impossible to promote or enforce on a political scale.

Basically, if you're an insecure person who spend way too much time thinking about what other people think of you then you pretty much have to pull your shit together and learn that it's not going to be the end of the world if someone dislike you or have gotten the wrong impression of you.

But I guess it can be hard for many to think like that. It sure did take a ouple of years for me to mature in that department, and it involved going through some pretty painful crap too.

But nowadays I mostly think: "Meh! There's almost seven billion people on this planet. I think I'll treasure the attention and relationships of those who actually BOTHER to get to know me as a person, instead of pretty much basing their entire image of me on shifty first impressions and prejudice."

And the truth of the matter is that there is nothing standing in the way for women to adopt a similar train of thought and living according to it. Aside from their own mental blockages and certain social needs (that may or may not be exaggerated depending on which type of person we're talking about).

The lead animator is a man (the one who wanted the "perfectly sculpted ass") is a man, but it was a woman who originally designed Bayonetta. Kimaya (spelling) wanted glasses and yadda yadda, so she put them in.

That sounds more familiar.

True...but do you want to make a child a bigger target, or a smaller one?
It can make a child stronger, but it can also damage them beyond repair. It's a fine line. I'm all for unusual names, but Bayonetta is a relatively violent sounding name on its own, without the context of the game.

I don't believe in trying to conform after the rules of school bullies. I did spend a hefty part of my schoolyears fighting them and standing up for myself after all. So the idea of doing something with the hopes of "not being a target" seems very counter-productive to me.

In that regard, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to adopt children either because someone might pick on the children because they have homosexual parents. Bullies are supposed to be fought and put in place, not obeyed and feared.

I will admit, I'm not familiar with all branches and philosophies of feminism, partly because I don't have the time, nor patience, to entertain everyone's individual/unique ideas of what feminism is but, yes, you'd think women more than anyone would understand the kind of suffering that goes along with repression.

But part of the problem...well, to give an actual example, I know people who will see a woman in a position of power and believe that she must have "fucked and sucked her way to the top". So, people STILL have this outdated view of women, and don't even realise they do!

I know. But I think it's the wrong way to go when using such a ham-fisted political method as affirmative action (i.e gender discrimination) like they have done on many occasions here in Sweden.

I mean, all you'll do by favouring women over men through the government is basically supplanting the views that a woman sucked and fucked her way to the top with the image that the woman basically got the position handed to her on a silver platter without the least bit of effort. Either way, she's not very likely to get any respect.

So if one wants to work towards progression and changing people's outdated views of women in different workplaces, then you must use other methods while still letting women compete on the exact same terms as men do.

Also, women have to learn that their biological make-up WILL MOST LIKELY make them lesser suited for certain jobs. Like being a fire-fighter for instance. You need to be very strong in such a line of work, not only because the job will involve heavy lifting but because people's lives are dependant on you being able to get them out of a burning building. If you don't have sufficient strength then that means that you might not be able to aid those in need in time and people could die as a result.

This doesn't mean that women should be forbidden to go for a career as fire-fighters, BUT it's downright idiotic to do the way they have done here, where they actually let women take EASIER physical fitness tests than the men, because the women "can't be expected to pass" the physical exams that the men have to. :S

The same have been done in the military and the police. They are basically letting inferior people work as these civil servants who are supposed to safeguard the laws, rights and safety of our citizens.

Really how is that on par with "gender equaliy" when women get a lot more slack when they try to get a job in these types of professions, but the men still have to prove themselves even more? It isn't, of course.

And the fact that women get free passes like this only serves to diminish the public view of women in the workplace. IF women had to take just as hard physical fitness tests and exams as men in training to become soldiers, policemen or fire-fighters, then yes there would most likely be a lot fewer women in these professions. But people wouldn't go around thinking that these women who do make it have only gotten there because "papa government" ruled by the word of the femi-nazis gave them an easier time and a lot more free passes.

But the feminists of this country doesn't get that. They think it is better to downgrade the quality of the workers in the policeforce and the fire-fighter departments with the sole goal of getting more women to work there. Thus ulimately making all of society suffer for their perverted and twisted version of "gender equality".

There ARE studies to show that women aren't as strong-willed in the negotiation stakes as men. This isn't being sexist at all, but you're right, often women DO accept lower wages.
However, this is, in part, also due to society's perception. If a man fights for a raise, he's a "go-getter". If a woman does the same, she's a "money grabbing *****".

Well, the thing is if more women acted like "money grabbing bitches" when it comes to salary negotiations, society would sooner or later get used to the "crazy notion" that women want to be paid as much as possible for their work, just like the men do.

Also, if you think about it, don't you think that women who basically only sit and complain about salary differences come off more as "money grabbing bitches" while at the same time not showing the least bit of effort in trying to work harder, than women who don't ***** too much about the situation but still asks for higher pay with confidence?

It's not very unreasonable to assume that if women learn to become better negotiators (which is pretty ironic considering that one of the most conservative and traditional views is that women ARE some of the top negotiators, if you consider myths that they use their words instead of their fists and "if the world was ruled by women, there would be no wars" and similar nonsense) then they will be percieved as.. Well, better negotiators.

The "money grabbing *****" perspective seems to arise when the "*****" in question is trying to get her hands on money that she doesn't deserve in the first place.

I wouldn't like to count how many times I've heard that. On the same note, a woman is a "gold-digger" if she dates an older man. However, a young man with an older woman is celebrated.

Well, that stigma goes both ways you know. If people see a guy dating a younger woman then you can be damn sure that a lot of women are going to see him as some kind of pervert who "can't get a woman his own age" and this without having the slightest information about how that particular relationship came to be.

At the same ime you have women in their forties hanging out wih boytoy's half their age, but all these women get is cheers and "you go girl!" from other women.

Another popular prejudice over here is when women see men dating women with asian features. Everyone basically assume that the asian girl is an "imported wife" enslaved against her will to be that man's sex-toy and housekeeper, and the man is looked down upon.

So in that regard, the door swings both ways. And one side isn't very likely to stop unless the other does first...

 

[Rachel317]

So I guess my main gripe isn't really that horny people try to get attention in order to score. What makes me cynical and bored is the fact that the current culture seem to breed people into thinking of nothing else but scoring with the next person.

I mean, there's an entire UNIVERSE out there for fuck sake, but these people couldn't care less about anything outside of how they are going to be percieved as attractive in the eyes of others.

Totally understand this. Women (and men) who are sexually open for the sake of it are fine, but the ones who ONLY do it to get laid...well, this is where the stereotypes come in. So I, although not at all interested in "getting a man", yadda yadda, get tarred with the same brush as someone who is purely sex-driven. Nothing necessarily wrong with being that way, but it sure doesnt help the rest of us who are sexually open but who also have other sides to their personalities.
It's largely the same in the UK, you go to nightclubs to "pull", not to dance and enjoy yourself. Because the current generation believes itself to be largely unrepressed sexually, they see it as a free-for-all, and put all of their efforts into sex. Well, what's the harm in oozing sexuality, but not acting upon it at any given moment? Women/men who COULD have sex whenever they want, but don't, get a lot of respect from me.

Well, I have to say that I think the progression towards not caring to much about how you will be percieved by your action is a personal/"spiritual" journey which is kind of impossible to promote or enforce on a political scale.
Basically, if you're an insecure person who spend way too much time thinking about what other people think of you then you pretty much have to pull your shit together and learn that it's not going to be the end of the world if someone dislike you or have gotten the wrong impression of you.
But I guess it can be hard for many to think like that. It sure did take a ouple of years for me to mature in that department, and it involved going through some pretty painful crap too.

Don't get me wrong, I know a national change of ideals isn't going to happen. Humans are largely shallow and judgemental, so even if things were to change, more stereotypes would come about in place of the old ones. This is a journey I'm currently undertaking, and it's nice to think that characters like Bayonetta, when you look past the original intentions of her creation, could help MORE women and young girls realise that there ARE alternative routes to take with their lives and personalities. If you really think about it, other than the clothes flying off, Bayonetta isn't particularly sexual - her normal speech isn't sex-orientated, sure she has the sexy walk but there's no actual reference to sex specifically, it's all insinuatiopn and suggestion.

I'm sorry you've had to go through some hard times. It sounds like you came out of it a better person, though?

But nowadays I mostly think: "Meh! There's almost seven billion people on this planet. I think I'll treasure the attention and relationships of those who actually BOTHER to get to know me as a person, instead of pretty much basing their entire image of me on shifty first impressions and prejudice."

Excellent point. Of course, I'm not saying ALL women should act like Bayonetta, especially if that's not howl they really are. I don't propose that people should be fake to fit into THIS personality type, just that you CAN be whoever you want to be, and you SHOULD be free from judgement. Of course, people will judge, but when you truly get to the stage where you can do something, or act in a certain way, for YOURSELF above all else, then I think people will become much more comfortable, and some of the stereotypes and judgements will begin to be alleviated.

And the truth of the matter is that there is nothing standing in the way for women to adopt a similar train of thought and living according to it. Aside from their own mental blockages and certain social needs (that may or may not be exaggerated depending on which type of person we're talking about).

Exactly! If it's seen in practice, then perhaps more women will realise that it's OK to act how they want to act. Unfortunately, social conditioning is a HUGE obstacle when it comes to this, and the fact that some people might be scared of being judged. But if I can say, "To hell with all of the people who don't approve", then I'm SURE there are other men and women out there who can, too.

I don't believe in trying to conform after the rules of school bullies. I did spend a hefty part of my schoolyears fighting them and standing up for myself after all. So the idea of doing something with the hopes of "not being a target" seems very counter-productive to me.

In that regard, homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to adopt children either because someone might pick on the children because they have homosexual parents. Bullies are supposed to be fought and put in place, not obeyed and feared.

...I hadn't thought of this. Great point! Again, it comes down partly to other peoples' judgements, and that's not something we'll overcome very soon.
But yes, I suppose it must be a case if doing something that YOU feel is right, not listening to those who don't necessarily know ANY better.

I mean, all you'll do by favouring women over men through the government is basically supplanting the views that a woman sucked and fucked her way to the top with the image that the woman basically got the position handed to her on a silver platter without the least bit of effort. Either way, she's not very likely to get any respect.

If a woman HAS worked for her position, then she should be commended for it. But I absolutely agree with you, and actually made a similar point to what you said earlier today (before I read your reply). It's NOT equality if there's a "quota" to fill, it's not equality if someone holds a position that is completely out of their understanding and ability. Businesses supposedly have to present themselves as giving equal rights, but they undermine this whole concept by giving women jobs BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO, not because those women are capable of doing said job.
As you say, female firefighters...why shouldn't women have to be as fit and capable as the males for this kind of job? Of course they should! And this is what undermines the whole, "We're all for equal rights" rubbish. Well...I'd rather see a firefighting team of 5 men than 20 women, if the males are more capable at doing their jobs properly.

Money grabbing snip

Hell, I don't see those women as money grabbing in the first place. If they deserve a higher wage, then they're fully entitled to it.
Even if a woman does deserve it, they're still negatively viewed, at least here in the UK. It might be different in Sweden, but there's still a stigma surrounding women earning much in part, I would imagine, due to the fact that men have always been seen as the "bread-winners". These women ARE turning the stereotypes on their heads, but are still with the next stereotype that was linked too closely to the first.

Well, that stigma goes both ways you know. If people see a guy dating a younger woman then you can be damn sure that a lot of women are going to see him as some kind of pervert who "can't get a woman his own age" and this without having the slightest information about how that particular relationship came to be.

Hmm...I suppose this could be true, in some circumstances. Honestly, I haven't really thought much on the toyboy debate, so can't really comment, but...it's probably more acceptable for an older man to date a younger woman than the other way around. But I think that comes down to things like Playboy (and Hugh Heffner) and all of these "trophy wives" people go on about. I suppose it stems from the Victorian era and earlier when a woman was expected to marry as early as possible to avoid being left on the shelf (still at ridiculously young ages - imagine not being married when you're 25. Normal now, right? Obviously, it hasn't always been that way).

Another popular prejudice over here is when women see men dating women with asian features. Everyone basically assume that the asian girl is an "imported wife" enslaved against her will to be that man's sex-toy and housekeeper, and the man is looked down upon.

So in that regard, the door swings both ways. And one side isn't very likely to stop unless the other does first...

Now this...this is sad. Are there not THAT many Asian women in Sweden? I assume that this is something not commonly seen? That's such an unfair assumption to make...it looks like every country is dogged with its own stereotypes and inaccurate judgements! This probably comes from the Thai-bride thing, the mail order wives...so at least it has SOME basis, but without knowing someone's specific circumstances, why is it fair to judge?

And yes, the biggest obstacle is that one thing will have to stop before another does, but that first thing can't stop until there is s general consensus that it's accurate and...gah! It's not something we're going to be done with in the next few years, but I'd like to think, again to bring it back to Bayonetta, That if women are better represented in games, we might get some REAL progression. Gaming's quite a niche medium, obviously, so the big changes won't come about within it, but maybe if developers weren't targeting horny young boys so much (during their most important time of development and opinion forming), it might help.

Of course, they won't stop though! That side of gaming is too big a market to not cater for.

 

[Plurralbles]

I liked your post and it wasn't a bad argument, but someone and everyone, should be shot for looking for role models in fictional media.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I haven't played much Bayonetta but... a feminist icon? I suspect we're talking about different games.

 

[Rachel317]

I haven't played much Bayonetta but... a feminist icon? I suspect we're talking about different games.

Nah, I acknowledge that "feminist icon" is probably too...specific at this early stage in her development. I was sure I'd taken that out of the original post...I'll have to check! It's really more about role model, or at least something that you see ONE thing in her that you like, that you can apply to yourself or your life, you know?

I liked your post and it wasn't a bad argument, but someone and everyone, should be shot for looking for role models in fictional media.

Well...I see your point, but real people tend to be dogged with, you know...not being perfect
If a woman in real life acted like Bayonetta in the same, genuine, convincing way, I'd look up to her. Unfortunately, I haven't come across this woman yet.
I wasn't specifically LOOKING or hoping to like Bayonetta as much as I do, it just kinda happened :s
And SURELY there's a character, from a book, movie, SOMETHING where you think, "Hell, if more people were like that, the world would be a better place"?

 

[Lt. Vinciti]

This prolly isnt even close to topic...


What ever happened to the free will we had?

Why does a person need a role model....

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

This...is so perfectly said. Would you mind if I quote this in the original post? I hadn't even gone into the morality thing, but this is just so perfectly worded.
And...I'd be friends with her! I don't like the women who go out, high heels, short skirts, breasts hanging out, troweled on make up when she has an agenda. It's just so fake! But I have utmost respect for women who are sexually confident, like Bayonetta, when it's part of their character, and that's who they REALLY are, not just a fantasized version of themselves in order to get male attention. Could not agree more.

Exactly; looking deeper into a character is where you find all the good stuff. Sexuality for the sake of being sexual is fine, but if some people are able to read more into it, then that's fine too. Again, would you mind if I use this segment in the original post too?
You've perfectly summed up my feelings on the matter, AND added to it!

Go right ahead and use my quotes if you want, anything for Bayonetta.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Don't get me wrong, I know a national change of ideals isn't going to happen. Humans are largely shallow and judgemental, so even if things were to change, more stereotypes would come about in place of the old ones. This is a journey I'm currently undertaking, and it's nice to think that characters like Bayonetta, when you look past the original intentions of her creation, could help MORE women and young girls realise that there ARE alternative routes to take with their lives and personalities. If you really think about it, other than the clothes flying off, Bayonetta isn't particularly sexual - her normal speech isn't sex-orientated, sure she has the sexy walk but there's no actual reference to sex specifically, it's all insinuatiopn and suggestion.

No I didn't really expect you to think that was going to happen either. But since feminism has become a political ideology, and as usual political ideologies are pretty much only capable of changins things with political methods I guess it was worth mentioning.

And sure, since Bayonetta is counter-cultural (as I've previously stated that I think she is) she should be able to present alternative routes. Although it's a shame that individual imagination doesn't bring about such realizations instead.

I'm sorry you've had to go through some hard times. It sounds like you came out of it a better person, though?

I don't know about that. I do have a shamelessly high opinion of my skills, talents and thoughts, but "good/better person" doesn't really fit the description in my opinion.

After all, being shameless and confident kind of includes being arrogant, which I am. I'm also misanthropic, I bear grudges and almost never let them go. I can be a man of principles to a near fanatical degree, and sometimes I put my survival instinct aside because I simply have to get my point across and refuse to yield in threatening situations even when it would probably do me good to do just that. Im also painfully honest, and I abide by a set of morals that doesn't quite go in synch with the popular, pseudo-christian ones of the modern world. I also break laws that I find unreasonable if I can get away with it. Oh, and i'm judgemental to! Though not in the shallow sense, thank heavens. because I truly fucking hate people who judge others when their being shallow about it. I kind of think that if you're going to judge someone the least you can do is "do your homework" so to speak and learn as much as you can about whatever it is you want to judge.

I also have an almost childish fascination with pretty stupid things (like playing with fire and explosives for instance) despite my otherwise intelligent and mature values and personality.

But I guess if you could have oversight with these pesky little "details" (hehehe, imagine writing that with a straight face XD), then I might come across as somewhat of a good person. Or at the very least; an improvement of what I was before.

Though if you trust mu judgement on the matter, despite my flaws (it might sound like im bullshitting you now but im actually pretty good at reading people) then I have to say that you come across as a decent and interesting person yourself. We might no agree completely about the character of Bayonetta (even though that's just a matter of taste), but your evocatice ideas and reasoning behind this thread for instance reveal that you don't possess a dull kind but a sharp one. And sharp minds usually fascinate me and make me respect them. Mostly because they tend to be depressingly rare.

Excellent point. Of course, I'm not saying ALL women should act like Bayonetta, especially if that's not howl they really are. I don't propose that people should be fake to fit into THIS personality type, just that you CAN be whoever you want to be, and you SHOULD be free from judgement. Of course, people will judge, but when you truly get to the stage where you can do something, or act in a certain way, for YOURSELF above all else, then I think people will become much more comfortable, and some of the stereotypes and judgements will begin to be alleviated.

My thoughts exactly.

Exactly! If it's seen in practice, then perhaps more women will realise that it's OK to act how they want to act. Unfortunately, social conditioning is a HUGE obstacle when it comes to this, and the fact that some people might be scared of being judged. But if I can say, "To hell with all of the people who don't approve", then I'm SURE there are other men and women out there who can, too.

Precisely.

The question is how this realizing can be brought about. One step in the wrong direction, I think, is the way where some societies try to use social conditioning to elmiminate or supplant an older social conditioning.

If you can imagine your average middleschool class where the teacher preach that we have to treat little Kvein or Christina with respect, friendship and tolerance just because their parents are gay or whatever, then you'll understand what I mean.

It's kind of like the previous social conditioning was about "fitting in", and the one which they are trying to replace it with is designed to FORCE the group into letting exactly everyone "fit in". Personally I believe that will only bring about more animosity. I mean, sure it would have been nice if some of my teachers in my younger years actually noticed that I was being harassed, followed and beaten by people for the crime of going to the same class as them and tried to put a stop to it. But I'd objected rather violently if the teachers had tried with the current method of making me and my antagonists into best of friends in some kind of hippie-fantasy way.

The issue wasn't that I wanted to be friends with them, the issue was more about wanting to be left the fuck alone.

So the question that I think people should ask themselves is really WHY they "should" fit in with the social collective, more than trying to force a social collective to accept and become best of friends with everyone. I mean, it's a pretty inescapable fact of life that everyone can't like everyone, and that people will hate eachoter for a variety of reasons.

I think the sooner people start to question why they want or should want to "fit in" becomes the more mainstream model, people will become less bothered by thoughts and insecurities about accidentally doing something that makes other people dislike them.

I think it's time to pop the old myth that humans are some kind of obssesively social creatures and that the social structure of our ancestors was more out of necessity and survival than an inescapable and omnipresent fact.

Hell, I don't see those women as money grabbing in the first place. If they deserve a higher wage, then they're fully entitled to it.
Even if a woman does deserve it, they're still negatively viewed, at least here in the UK. It might be different in Sweden, but there's still a stigma surrounding women earning much in part, I would imagine, due to the fact that men have always been seen as the "bread-winners". These women ARE turning the stereotypes on their heads, but are still with the next stereotype that was linked too closely to the first.

Yeah I guess it's a bit different in Sweden. The thing is, Sweden would have been one of the most gender equal countries in the world if it weren't for the fact that... Well, feminism simply went overboard. It's not like the ideals of gender-equality actually met any fanatic resistance here.

So if anything, Sweden should be considered somewhat of a cautionary tale about what happens when feminism is given way too much room and blows everyhing out of proportion. I mean, women here are not only recieving better grades in our educationary institutions through affirmative action (that might sound slanderous on my part, but it's true. This because when international tests of Swedens students and their commitées get to interpret the results, Swedish boys actually have higher scores in a vast amount of subjects than Swedish girls. Yet Swedish girls still graduate with higher overall grades here, when our educational instiutions get to do the grading), our government impose laws about gender quotas in a wide variety of job markets and in slots of higher education (meaning that if the government feels that one particular venue of higher education is overcrowded with men, they only accept female applicants the next year, and male applicants simply have to suck it up if they get rejected).

Aside from that, pretty much all popular media and public forum still rant and cheer feminist dogma, and any public figurehead who EVER utters something that might be construed as a negative comment about feminism and the current political policies more often than not finds themselves without a job eventually. Radical feminists also go completely unopposed in the media and political forums, and they get to make all manner of slanderous and downright preposterous statements about men as if men was some kind of collective group. And what's even more interesting is the fact that they always target the native born male Swedes who are for the msot part the highest tax payers and poorly represented in crime statistics, but out of political correctness the feminist dogma rarely utter a single negative comment about immigrant muslim men (who have even gone as far as enslaved and even murdered their own daughters and sisters simply because they fell in love with a Swedish man instead of someone approved by their fathers and brothers).

Quite simply, women and feminists in general enjoy ridiculously good standards, yet they constantly complain and still go with the notion that the native Swedish man and the evil patriarchal structures ingrained in Swedish culture is trying to hold them back. And the only way to solve that "problem" is to give the feminist dogma even more power.

So to the rest of the world I'd just like to say; beware the feminist. She might seem noble at first with her talk about gender equality which is all fine and dandy. But never EVER stop questioning her motives and proposed methods. If you do you might end up in this feminist nightmare that im currently stuck in.

Now this...this is sad. Are there not THAT many Asian women in Sweden? I assume that this is something not commonly seen? That's such an unfair assumption to make...it looks like every country is dogged with its own stereotypes and inaccurate judgements! This probably comes from the Thai-bride thing, the mail order wives...so at least it has SOME basis, but without knowing someone's specific circumstances, why is it fair to judge?

No it's not the most common thing, but you can be damn sure that these types of shallow judgements are being made.

The thing is, caucasian Swedish men have basically been declared as some kind of villains here, and everything they do is wrong. If they're not considered "boring" and pathetic, but actually have the balls to stand up for themselves, they're chauvinistic and hateful towards women. They're (I say "they" since im a notorious troublemaker who rarely take shit directed at my way) basically a fair target for every pun, slanderous comment and judgement. But if you ever pick on anyone else, then you're either a racist (if you happen to criticze a foreigner or immigrant) or a misogynist (if you ever criticize a woman).

Which of course result in people assuming that a woman with asian features seen with a Swedish man must be an enslaved Thai-bride or even a prostitute of some kind.

Oh, and about prostitution! Did you know that the idea of a woman working as a prostitute by her own free will is considered a complete myth here, despite very real examples of such women? Over here, all women prostitutes are basically equatable to trafficking victims, and you can be damn sure that it is men who get to take all the blame for it.

And yes, the biggest obstacle is that one thing will have to stop before another does, but that first thing can't stop until there is s general consensus that it's accurate and...gah! It's not something we're going to be done with in the next few years, but I'd like to think, again to bring it back to Bayonetta, That if women are better represented in games, we might get some REAL progression. Gaming's quite a niche medium, obviously, so the big changes won't come about within it, but maybe if developers weren't targeting horny young boys so much (during their most important time of development and opinion forming), it might help.

Of course, they won't stop though! That side of gaming is too big a market to not cater for.

Yeah, speaking of interesting female characters in video games, I think it's kind of sad that they didn't include Luger the Shadow Marshal from the first Killzone (PS2) game in the sequel.

Sure you might think that an assassin is a rather typical female stereotype in games, but what made her stand out was the fact that she wasn't really wearing some kind of skimpy and impractical black leather cat-suit but more of a military uniform (albeit with a clear black-ops design and execution) and equipment. Also she was never shown without her balaclava which she either wore as a mask along with her night vision goggles (most of the time in fact) or as a hat (meaning that she didn't do the typical and impractical cliché of a woman with a fabulous hairstyle, which would quite frankly have been grossly inappropriate in such a military setting like killzone). But through excellent voice acting and believable lines you didn't doubt her femininity in any sort of way.

Her design was feminine, but still believably military and low-key and a lot of badass at the same time (I mean, she's the only character who can actually use a knife as a thrown weapon and it's insta-kill each time >). And even if she did have a previous romantic affair with one of the male protagonists of the game (which is gratifyingly glossed over, instead of explored in ridiculous detail since the protagonists do have a war against the Helghast occupation forces to concentrate on), it's not like it ends with her turning into som goddamned damsel in distress at the end which he saves or some typical crap like that.

Pics:

If I have to name my favourite and most believable female videogame character (although perhaps not as a rolemodel due to being a bit murderous and all that), it would be Luger from Killzone. (incidently, she's also named after a weapon XD)

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Well, I'm a man, so I'm not sure whether my input on feminist icons is any good, but I would have thought that the fact that Bayonetta is utilising sexuallity so much is a bit weak.

I would rather say that Meryl from Metal Gear Solid 4 is a better role model. I know, in the past games she relies on Snake too much appears weaker than male characters, Snake in particular, but in MGS4 she appears to be a much more grown up, sensible character. I guess that's kinda a rare moment for Hideo Kojima, but nevertheless, it's still there. Meryl is still pretty attractive in MGS4, but she's not playing on it at all, although definitely has some sexuality; she's not an 'ice queen' as MB puts it. She looks like a normal woman, there's no element of fanservice to her appearance (she was actually modified to look older; her original design for MGS4 was much more childlike), she's dressed like a soldier.

 

[Decabo]

Ummmm, no, sadly. Bayonetta is meant to be a sex icon, not a feminist one. I don't think strong women want to teach little girls to say "Do you naughty boys need a good spanking?" before they shoot someone.

True, but Bayonetta doesn't teach Cereza to be filthy, does she? In fact, she's quite gentle and loving around her, even when they first meet and she uses her gun to tilt Cereza's head to look at her. She's mothering around children, but sexually powerful when Cereza's not around.
I think you're looking at it a little too literally

I disagree. The way Bayonetta acts isn't immediately justified as tasteful simply because it's not done in front of children. And besides, doesn't Bayonetta do that "Have you been cheating on me darling?" taunt to an angel right in front of Cereza, right before she beats the shit out of it? Now that line isn't particularly dirty, but it's not something I can see, say, a female police officer saying. You can say I'm taking it to literally, and let me clarify that I think Bayonetta is awesome, probably one of my top 5 games of the year. But the defense that it's done ironically doesn't change what's actually happening: she gets naked to do powerful moves, says flirtatious dominatrix lines to opponents, and uses giant weapons like stripper poles.

 

[Rachel317]

I disagree. The way Bayonetta acts isn't immediately justified as tasteful simply because it's not done in front of children. And besides, doesn't Bayonetta do that "Have you been cheating on me darling?" taunt to an angel right in front of Cereza, right before she beats the shit out of it? Now that line isn't particularly dirty, but it's not something I can see, say, a female police officer saying. You can say I'm taking it to literally, and let me clarify that I think Bayonetta is awesome, probably one of my top 5 games of the year. But the defense that it's done ironically doesn't change what's actually happening: she gets naked to do powerful moves, says flirtatious dominatrix lines to opponents, and uses giant weapons like stripper poles.

To be fair, at that point in the game, Bayonetta doesn't realise that Cereza can see her in Purgatorio from the human world.

That's besides the point, however. I DO see what you're saying, but...other than the clothes flying off and the suggestive comments towards the angels, Bayonetta's not PARTICULARLY sexual. Not when you really think about it. The cut scenes are largely centred around character interaction, and only ONCE is the act of sex actually mentioned.

 

[Rachel317]

No I didn't really expect you to think that was going to happen either. But since feminism has become a political ideology, and as usual political ideologies are pretty much only capable of changins things with political methods I guess it was worth mentioning.

And sure, since Bayonetta is counter-cultural (as I've previously stated that I think she is) she should be able to present alternative routes. Although it's a shame that individual imagination doesn't bring about such realizations instead.

Well, yes, that's true, but maybe it takes seeing something like that in action to realise it's there. As I've said, I'm similar to Bayonetta in some ways, but I hadn't REALLY considered just acting that way, because of society's standards and conditioning.
I'm not saying I would act like Bay just to be like her or something (I'm not 12! ), but if that's who a person really is, then maybe it DOES take something which transcends society to make them realise that, yes, you CAN act in this way, or that.

I don't know about that. I do have a shamelessly high opinion of my skills, talents and thoughts, but "good/better person" doesn't really fit the description in my opinion.

"Better" is very subjective. Even just being mentally stronger than when you were a child could be classed as being a "better" person now. It's hard to judge over the internet, but you seem alright to me! And the fact that you acknowledge what you are is far more honest than some other people are. Despite the breaking of laws (if they're minor, or are REALLY unreasonable, then who am I to judge?), if you're a morally decent person, then...really, what's the harm in everything else you mentioned, being passionate about your views, etc?

To be honest, I can see how some of my replies to people would come across badly, but it's so difficult to properly say what you want to say, in the MANNER you intend to say it, over the internet. We have very similar values, so I would trust your word on things! I'd rather have someone comment and say, "I disagree BECAUSE..." than "No, you're wrong, she's too sexual to be looked up to". The fact that we disagree doesn't matter, it's the fact that we're able to have a dialogue about it without it turning into an argument.

"I kind of think that if you're going to judge someone the least you can do is "do your homework" so to speak and learn as much as you can about whatever it is you want to judge."

I'm guilty of judging people without getting to know them, but am trying SO hard to change that now. It's unfair, and could be completely inaccurate. A woman in the street, dressed up with loads of make-up..."slut" and trying to get male attention, or she just enjoys dressing like that? My first reaction will, from now on, be the latter, until proven otherwise.

The question is how this realizing can be brought about. One step in the wrong direction, I think, is the way where some societies try to use social conditioning to elmiminate or supplant an older social conditioning.

If you can imagine your average middleschool class where the teacher preach that we have to treat little Kvein or Christina with respect, friendship and tolerance just because their parents are gay or whatever, then you'll understand what I mean.

Of course, not everyone will get on with everyone else. I find this kind of double standard rubbish highly annoying. It would be more productive, in my opinion, to, yes, mediate the situation, but tell them to be CIVIL as opposed to friends.
Making a child think they should be friends with everyone is going to set them up for damage and obstacles in the future.

But, really, the only way to make a big impact would be for the media (in all of its forms) to stop preaching their rubbish. In the magazines, how often have you seen a picture of a celebrity looking not-so-good, and the writer has torn them to pieces over it? We get it often in the newspapers especially, "Rating" celebrity bodies. How is that fair? And, surely, this is giving the impression to all men and women that someone is ALWAYS judging you, so you MUST match the media's view of what "perfection" or "attractiveness" is?

Yeah I guess it's a bit different in Sweden. The thing is, Sweden would have been one of the most gender equal countries in the world if it weren't for the fact that... Well, feminism simply went overboard. It's not like the ideals of gender-equality actually met any fanatic resistance here.

Was there not much trouble with inequality BEFORE the feminist ideals really took hold?
It's extremely unfair that women should be given an easier ride, both career and academic-wise. Surely this only sends the message that women can only out-achieve men by being given help? I'm sure that's NOT what feminism is all about.

As someone else in the thread said, the genders CAN'T be equal, because we have different make-up, genetics, strengths and weaknesses. Equality will come when EVERYONE realises that there are some things that men just CAN do better than women, and vice versa.

Radical feminists also go completely unopposed in the media and political forums, and they get to make all manner of slanderous and downright preposterous statements about men as if men was some kind of collective group.

Yes, the whole "men are sexist pigs!!!!!11111oneoneoneone" thing...surely that's as bad as men saying that "all women are bad drivers", or that "all women should be in the kitchen". It's a highly sexist statement that, admittedly, will never be eradicated, because it's so much easier to blame someone else for your shortcomings than yourself.

And the Muslim thing...I must say, I think that's a problem in every country. In the UK, there's already talk about allowing Shariah Law alongside our own judicial system. Certain areas of society are "untouchable", so no negative comments can be made about them, even if said comment is wholly justified.

Oh, and about prostitution! Did you know that the idea of a woman working as a prostitute by her own free will is considered a complete myth here, despite very real examples of such women? Over here, all women prostitutes are basically equatable to trafficking victims, and you can be damn sure that it is men who get to take all the blame for it.

...what? You ARE kidding, right? Of COURSE prostitution is free-will! Even if you find yourself in the poorest of situations, there is help out there. Prostitution isn't even a last resort, you literally DO NOT have to do it.
I could understand if, perhaps, the woman had fallen in with a bad crowd and was FORCED to become a prostitute, but...this doesn't mean that ALL men are bad, and that ALL men are to blame!

Yeah, speaking of interesting female characters in video games, I think it's kind of sad that they didn't include Luger the Shadow Marshal from the first Killzone (PS2) game in the sequel.

Why SHOULDN'T women take on the assassin roles, though? We have Sam Fisher...why not a female equivalent? It's sexist to NOT include a female assassin (because, as they are created, they CAN have the exact same strength etc as their male counterparts), yet also sexist to assume that women can ONLY be assassin characters! It's such a fine, totally-obscured line.

she didn't do the typical and impractical cliché of a woman with a fabulous hairstyle, which would quite frankly have been grossly inappropriate in such a military setting like killzone). But through excellent voice acting and believable lines you didn't doubt her femininity in any sort of way.

Good. Women don't NEED to be stereotypically feminine to show that they're feminine. Obviously, Luger and Bayonetta are EXACT opposites, but they present the two sides of the same coin.
Just the same, men don't need to be barrel-chested with rippling, muscular bodies to show that they are masculine. It's just easier to present this kind of cliche character in a game than go into all sorts of metaphors and symbolism. Hell, I don't doubt that the creators of Bayonetta probably didn't intend for her to necessarily be anything more than "eye candy", but more CAN be seen of her if you wish to look for it.

Her design was feminine, but still believably military and low-key and a lot of badass at the same time (I mean, she's the only character who can actually use a knife as a thrown weapon and it's insta-kill each time >). And even if she did have a previous romantic affair with one of the male protagonists of the game (which is gratifyingly glossed over, instead of explored in ridiculous detail since the protagonists do have a war against the Helghast occupation forces to concentrate on), it's not like it ends with her turning into som goddamned damsel in distress at the end which he saves or some typical crap like that.

So...we basically have a female character who isn't an Ice Queen and isn't a Damsel in Distress...oh my, she's actually a middle ground character?! Incredible. I haven't played it, but it sounds like the developers did a good job with her character; yes, she has abilities not TYPICALLY associated with women ("You throw like a girl", etc etc), yet...she also DOES have feminine qualities. Sounds like the kind of character we're striving for!