Bayonetta as a role model

[Rachel317]

Most of those arguments could be used for just about any T&A star. Also, feminism does not equal male free.

Oh, and I can't stand false equivalency:
Like that.

Sorry...I'm not following that. What exactly do you mean?

It sounds like you're trying to take a character you like and shoehorn in admirable qualities in order to justify liking her.

I like the character anyway and, yes, my interpretation of her could be COMPLETELY wrong. Maybe Platinum Games WANTED to create a generic sex game, but stick in a story so it won't get labelled s "sleazy". But it's MY interpretation which makes me love her. The original intentions of Bayonetta as a character are secondary to how the audience sees her. If she inspires just ONE woman to fully embrace her sexuality and be proud of it, then some good has come of it, regardless of whether you believe her to be nothing more than an animated sex doll, or an inspirational character.

So I understand what you're getting at, but disagree, if that makes sense

Personally, to myself I find that the -isms of the world strive more for dominance than equality, but that is a way to take the word and put it into a context that would make more sense, and also how to make a woman in a game. It does seem sexual, but at the same time, with the way this explains it, makes it from sleezy to powerful

Exactly. This is what I meant when I emphasised that I wasn't a feminist, because one group tends to get tarred with the same brush. There is a push, currently, for women to become dominant of men (which is highly illogical. The real world has always been, and will continue to be, a largely male-dominated world), which is something I don't believe in. Obviously, you're of the same opinion. Thanks for articulating that in a way that I couldn't!

 

[Rachel317]

There's actually a really good Game Overthinker episode that goes really deep into this idea. It's a good watch.

http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

This is a fantastic insight! I hadn't even BEGUN to consider her physical appearance as an argument for her potential status as an iconic, female character. And the dancing vs. stripper thing...hadn't even thought of that.

Thank you for sharing this link!! I love Bayonetta even more now

 

[Palademon]

I thought of this point too, and I haven't even played the game.
However, in working towards equality, why do we make a big deal about female characters? We don't make big deal about male characters. No one says male characters are an unrealistic standard of a man being a sex symbol, even though they're mostly guys in good shape. Most of us just don't start imagining them naked.

It's like when people were happy when Obama got elected. We're not going to reach equality if everyone makes a big deal everytime something that isn't discriminant occurs.

 

[Rachel317]

why do we make a big deal about female characters? We don't make big deal about male characters. No one says male characters are an unrealistic standard of a man being a sex symbol, even though they're mostly guys in good shape. Most of us just don't start imagining them naked.

I think we don't make such a big deal of male characters because there are SO many. I bet you can name 10 male characters, right now, who turn the stereotypes on their heads.

How many female characters can you name? I think I could name five. And even that's with a couple of minutes' thought.

I'm not trying to turn this into a discussion on feminism or anything like that, don't get me wrong! If Bayonetta was a male character who inspired me, I'd get just as excited. I'm sure there are male characters (from ANY medium) you look up to, or are inspired by, or who you think totally kick ass, right?
This is exactly the same, but taken out the gender thing. It's not really about the fact she's a woman, it's the fact that she's a woman who goes SOME way to releasing the gender from stereotypes.

 

[binvjoh]

There's actually a really good Game Overthinker episode that goes really deep into this idea. It's a good watch.

http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

Waait? Is that movie-Bob?

 

[Mikeyfell]

I search bar-ed this and didn't find anything similar, but I apologise if it's been done before.

I know my argument is quite long, but I've tried to split it up into as many purdy, bite-sized chunks as possible.

Alright, on to the topic at hand! So, amazingly, I only just played Bayonetta (I know, disgusting, right???) and I really love Bayonetta both as a character and as an icon for feminism. I don't really want this discussion to turn into a debate over whether the game was good or not, just the titular character herself. OK, to be more specific, you might not necessarily buy into the feminism thing, but the fact that she could easily be seen as a good role model coincides with this.

1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?

2. Bayonetta is a strong, powerful, highly independent woman. Even Lara Croft has males at her side, helping her. Sure, Bayonetta has Luka (and Rodin and Enzo to a certain extent, although they can largely be ignored, because they don't affect gameplay), but he's only really there to look after Cereza when Bayonetta is kicking Angel arse. She is completely independent and, on the odd occasions when she fights with a partner, it is always Jeanne. Platinum Games presents an environment that truly is a "Woman's World"; even Jubileus, the Creator, is a female, whereas the angels are referred to as "boys" at every turn.

3. I'll probably be berated for this, but I believe that Bayonetta represents the female form better than a lot of other female characters. Yes, her limbs are exaggerated, but she has curves, an ass, she has breasts and she's not particularly skinny/size zero, which is what the media too often presents as perfection. Sure, she's slim (hell, she fights angels for a living, she has to be in great shape), but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen.

4. This is slightly taken out of context (I'm a Literature student, it's what I do ), but Bayonetta protects Cereza and tells her that she is a "strong, little girl" and that "there nothing [she] cannot overcome." This is such a lovely sentiment; if the women playing this game can apply this to their own lives, then Bayonetta could be a catalyst in inspiring a generation of strong women with perseverance, intelligence and confidence, both sexually and otherwise.

5. Bayonetta is completely comfortable in her own skin. Admittedly, she IS gorgeous, with a body to be proud of, and seems to be just as comfortable naked as she is fully clothed. Despite how beautiful she is, she's also teaching a great lesson because, if more women could feel comfortable with themselves, we'd be in a much happier place. Bayonetta never claims to be gorgeous but rather seems to be largely oblivious. She DOES say to Luka, "Do I LOOK like I have any interest in children?", referencing her body. But that could be more about how in shape she is as opposed to how hot she is. As I say, she never makes a reference to her own beauty, which suggests that you can still be confident and sexy, even if you're relatively average-looking.

I'm aware that this is not a particularly new or revolutionary opinion of Bayonetta, but I had formed this opinion before I read any of the articles about her. Bayonetta oozes sexuality and sensuality, and doesn't shy away from it. She embraces her beauty, and why shouldn't she? As I said, I don't think the creators set about to portray women in a vulgar way, which is evidenced by one of the PG team who was upset over the art works of Bayonetta which paired her down to being purely a sexual object. She has an intriguing personality that doesn't revolve around sex. I ADORE Bayonetta as a character, and as a role model, encompassing many ideals and sentiments. Women SHOULD be sexy, women ARE sexy. Women can be sexy and wear glasses, be intelligent, be witty and cool. Bayonetta just projects this idea more into the public eye than it has been in the past.

I would just like to say, I am by no means a feminist. I don't believe that women should be superior to men, just equal. l DO believe, however, that lessons can be learned from Bayonetta. The game, and character, don't represent women as "better", just as having different strengths to men. Rodin makes Bay's weapons, she kicks arse with them.

So, what do you fine people of The Escapist think about Bayonetta as a feminist icon?

I'm really glad a female said this

'cause when ever I say this, and get backed up by other males (presumably the only other people in the room that played Bayonetta) it seems to do more harm than good.

it seems to me that a lot of women that cry "foul" at a lack of positive female role models in games have a narrow or even anti-feminist view point.
One of the reoccurring opinions I've heard (from girls I've spoken to in person) is that if a woman is "sexy" she gets automatically demoted from "woman" to "sex object for men"
[sub]I'm probably oversimplifying but that seems to be the jest of it[/sub]

a more specific example of what I'm talking about is Ashley Williams (from Mass Effect) vs Bayonetta
the thing about Ashley is that she's strong despite her femininity.
She's trying to be the best soldier there is by following in the footsteps of her father and grandfather and great grandfather.
she wants to ware the heavy armor and carry the big guns
it almost seems like being a boy would have made it easier on her
and when you get down to it she's a bit racist

and as soon as anyone brings up Bayonetta they get immediately shot down lines like "objectification of women blah blah blah"
"she dresses like a stripper blah blah blah"
"she can't be a strong role model blah blah blah"

it's almost like if anyone's attractive they're immediately Laura Croft end of conversation.

it bothers me that the only girls that can acknowledge that attractive women can hold a place as a role model are the ones who would never say they were feminists.

 

[Something Amyss]

Sorry...I'm not following that. What exactly do you mean?

The idea of trying to portray both sides as equal in terms of rival traits. Not all things in nature are balanced, and not all things complement one another.

I like the character anyway and, yes, my interpretation of her could be COMPLETELY wrong. Maybe Platinum Games WANTED to create a generic sex game, but stick in a story so it won't get labelled s "sleazy". But it's MY interpretation which makes me love her. The original intentions of Bayonetta as a character are secondary to how the audience sees her. If she inspires just ONE woman to fully embrace her sexuality and be proud of it, then some good has come of it, regardless of whether you believe her to be nothing more than an animated sex doll, or an inspirational character.

So I understand what you're getting at, but disagree, if that makes sense

I don't think you understand my point, since my point is that interpretation seems horribly forced. I mostly want to avoid a lengthy, point by point deconstruction here. I'd also point out that if the general impression matters, she is a fuckdoll, regardless of your interpretation. She appealed to more horny teenage boys than empowered women. The support she gets is largely no different from any other scantily clad heroine.

So, by your own logic, it appears she is nothing but fap bait and you are shoehorning in a contrary opinion. You might find one, ten, one hundred, one thousand people here who agree with you, but the Escapist does not define the itnernet, or game fans in general.

...Which is probably a good thing, given the number of people on here who think women shouldn't be protagonists in the first place.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I totally understand what you mean! This is an excellent take on it. The sexuality of the game WAS OTT, either as brilliant satire of the sexualisation of women, or really as a masturbatory aid, depending on how you look at it.

Is it, however...that to men, she is little more than a sexual object, but to women she is a figure to look up to? Is this a case of her being unable to transcend gender boundaries, or because she really IS little more than a sexual play thing?

EDIT: "gender boundaries" due to our different ways of viewing and interpreting the world, to clarify.

I'll have to retract my statement concerning Bayonetta being seen as as a sexual plaything. Because actually, she's the player. They didn't make her look and act like a dominatrix for nothing. So I guess in that regard, she can be considerd a good role model for women: You don't need to be on the receiving end; you can be the one who "gives it" to the men.

And eventhough I dont like the game and the characters at all, it's nice to see a female game character with some actual warm blood flowing through her veins.

 

[Erana]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

You're right, but a lot of feminists are men-hating, yadda yadda. I don't necessarily mean to say that feminism is wrong or that feminists are bad people, so thank you for pointing that out. As I say, it could be more about role model than feminism.

Those people aren't femenists, they're women supremacists masquerading under the word, "Femenist." The term"Femenism" is, or was suprisingly the spot: the term sounds like someone who wants to give a hell of a lot more rights to women than society thinks they should have.
Of course, at the time the term was coined, equality between the sexes (which IS and always has been the ultimate goal of femenism) was giving an outrageous number of rights to women, compared to social expectation.
So really, you've been a femenist and didn't even know it!

I do appreciate that Bayonetta has realistic curves. Still, I find characters like her and Lara Croft not necessarily as important in outstanding as female figures as much as characters that normalize women in independant and powerful roles.
Which, in its own right, can be just as important.

 

[Kukakkau]

While I only played the demo I can say good points made in the OP but considering within 5mins of playing she was poledancing and losing her clothes

I'd agree if her clothes didn't fly off every now and again... It's like "Hai guiz! BOOBEHS!"
I think people see her more as a sex symbol than a strong woman and a role model. Good game, but the nudity did put me off =/
Before I dropped Media Studies, something like this was going to be one of my assignments. Yeah, Lara Croft breaks away from the stereotype of women being weak and saves the world... in tiny hot pants.

[sub]That might not make much sense. It's late D=[/sub]

Pretty much this - having a role model who is just like "hey I can lose my clothes and do suggestive fighting" isn't exactly a step in the right direction. Bayonetta's sole existence is to give guy gamers at home something to stare at

 

[Rachel317]

-snip-

Firstly, I can't understand why women assume that sexy, attractive female characters are purely seen as sex objects by men. Maybe the people saying this don't have much perspective on the subject? I'd understand their point of view if they'd played Bayonetta and it was still their opinion, but that's...quite sexist, in itself.

I do find it annoying when people go on about

"objectification of women blah blah blah"
"she dresses like a stripper blah blah blah"
"she can't be a strong role model blah blah blah"

But, I assume, the people who say these things are either trying to hard to speak on behalf of someone else, or tend to not have a fantastically deep understanding of what they're talking about. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, sure, but to blatantly hold a character in disregard for dressing the way she does (Bayonetta's outfit is actually VERY practical. It doesn't get caught on her weapons, she can freely move in it, and it can turn into demons. What's NOT to love?) is wrong to begin with. Bayonetta, as an example, is more than just a hot chick in a tight cat suit.

it bothers me that the only girls that can acknowledge that attractive women can hold a place as a role model are the ones who would never say they were feminists.

Also, what EXACTLY do you mean by this? Are you saying that "feminists" should be able to view these characters as iconic figures too? Or that "anti-feminists" want to be as separate from the stereotypical feminist as possible?

I'll have to retract my statement concerning Bayonetta being seen as as a sexual plaything. Because actually, she's the player. They didn't make her look and act like a dominatrix for nothing. So I guess in that regard, she can be considerd a good role model for women: You don't need to be on the receiving end; you can be the one who "gives it" to the men.

And eventhough I dont like the game and the characters at all, it's nice to see a female game character with some actual warm blood flowing through her veins.

True, Bay Is the player! She teases and flirts with the males, whilst giving nothing to them. In fact, even the romance between Bayonetta and Luka is beautifully crafted, without much of a hint of sex.

Indeed, within the whole game, the act of sex itself is only referenced ONCE, when Bayonetta says to Luka, "Now, making them (children)...that's another story".

I'm sorry you didn't like the game! Admittedly, it's a bit campy, and whenever Bayonetta says, "How do the Americans put it? Oh yes. Bust a cap in yo' ass", I cringe...the English accent does it, I think

 

[Minky_man]

Maybe its my years as an Art Student destroying any and all thoughts of being turned on when I see the naked figure but I never have seen Bayoneta as a sexual anything, she looks great for sure, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get to know her purely on her looks.

As far as the feminism argument goes, I don't get why both Sexes can't act how THEY want to act, it's hardly equality if Women NEED to feel confident and express how Sexual they are to show women how it's done, sounds like another Sterotype, or at least one pending.

ALL People should act how they wish to in accordance with Law. (please ignore the hippocrisy of me saying 'should' there)

 

[Decabo]

Ummmm, no, sadly. Bayonetta is meant to be a sex icon, not a feminist one. I don't think strong women want to teach little girls to say "Do you naughty boys need a good spanking?" before they shoot someone.

 

[Drakmeire]

I've been saying similar things about Bayonetta in much less intelligent ways since the game came out.
I hope that more developers can create such well rounded feminine "Girl Power" characters without resorting to the emotionless, hates sex, tough girl character that has plagued gaming (guys, if you want a feminist character don't just make a female character reject her sexuality, and femininity, do the opposite.)

 

[Casual Shinji]

I'm sorry you didn't like the game! Admittedly, it's a bit campy, and whenever Bayonetta says, "How do the Americans put it? Oh yes. Bust a cap in yo' ass", I cringe...the English accent does it, I think

For me the game basically started off cringe-worthy with that freaking Joe Pesci immitator and the stereotypical awesomely bald black guy. *shudder*

Apart from that, there wasn't one shred of normality in the entire game. I love some craziness in a game, but there needs to be atleast 1 square inch of casual common ground for me, to get my bearings.

 

[meece]

If that's the case then for gender equality where are the games with guys stripping naked whenever they do something powerful?

It's a game made by guys, for guys and it's quite obviously that.

 

[annoyinglizardvoice]

Interesting way of looking at the character.
I'd seen the game-overthinker talk about her, but it's nice to see that other folks share that view.
I think I'll have to get round to playing the game before I decide how accurate I think these view are though

 

[LetalisK]

I'm thinking Bayonetta is more about turning on horny guys. But what do I know?

 

[Nomanslander]

You know, I just realize the problem with why it's so hard to create a believable female character in games or even in movies for that matter.

Women are either objectified in games or movies for their looks, used as the emotional support, or hyper-realized into what can be the perfect role-model.

Never are they just written as people with their own traits and problems...lol

There's a reason why a lot of people liked Alyx Vance from HL2, she was ordinary.