Bayonetta as a role model

[MrHero17]

I'm getting a vibe from the people who don't agree with the OP that men finding Bay attractive or wanting to bang her means she can not be a feministic icon and I don't really get that. If I thought Alyx Vance was sexy and I considered her to be eye candy when I played HL2 does that mean that no one could use her as an example of a strong female character? Hell, I've always though Samus was sexy on a number of levels but that never made me think of her as not being a strong woman.

Also, as someone who owns the game it seemed to me like Bay wasn't really flaunting her sexiness it since ignoring the player she's alone whenever she fights. For many an angel the sight of Bay poledancing was the last thing they ever saw. Felt to me like Bay was just really comfortable with who she was and how she looks and I found that refreshing.

No one called Marcus and Dom masturbation fodder for women because you spend the entire game staring at their uncovered, ripped arms.

 

[Mikeyfell]

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

I have a serious question (I'm not trolling)
why does everyone always bring up Valve games when talking about strong female icons
Alyx I get.
but Chell doesn't have any lines of dialog
she doesn't do anything accept escape a crazy science lab

in most other "strong female character" threads Zoe and Rochell from Left 4 Dead come up
WHY?

does the non bombshell body automatically make them a strong character?

well even though chell dosn't speak if you actually think about "her" escaping the lab it requires intelligence. strength and determination

remember when she was heading towards that inferno? that would have been scary as hell but chell didn't just give up and cry like anyone else...she used her quick thinking and escaped and also used her brains to defeat GLaDOS, that whole situation was terryfiying but she pulled through

though because she dosn't speak to most people she's just a walking camera

um.....well, that's not a bad reason.
but wouldn't Chell be just as strong if she looked like this

Spoiler

what ever. Thanks for telling me

 

[FernandoV]

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

I have a serious question (I'm not trolling)
why does everyone always bring up Valve games when talking about strong female icons
Alyx I get.
but Chell doesn't have any lines of dialog
she doesn't do anything accept escape a crazy science lab

in most other "strong female character" threads Zoe and Rochell from Left 4 Dead come up
WHY?

does the non bombshell body automatically make them a strong character?

well even though chell dosn't speak if you actually think about "her" escaping the lab it requires intelligence. strength and determination

remember when she was heading towards that inferno? that would have been scary as hell but chell didn't just give up and cry like anyone else...she used her quick thinking and escaped and also used her brains to defeat GLaDOS, that whole situation was terryfiying but she pulled through

though because she dosn't speak to most people she's just a walking camera

In the game she is nothing more than a means to an end. You need her character to exist in order to play the game, her intelligence and such is no more than the time you put into finishing the puzzles, you can't characterize her when the developers never even bothered to characterize her themselves. Or, I guess you can, but it just seems you are referencing her because she wears lots of clothes and isn't trying to seduce or flirt with a man; in that case why not talk about BS2's antagonist? or someone like that.

 

[Blatherscythe]

Good points, but I just have one question. Apperantly (not sure if it's true or not) the game featured a "one handed" controler play mode, yeah we all know what the fuck that's for. Combine that with the clothing flying off with powerful attacks and well, the game seems like an interactive porn movie.

 

[FernandoV]

To put in my own two cents, Bayonetta's story doesn't develop her enough to make her any type of icon other than a sex icon but you shouldn't overlook a beautiful game woman just because of her tits or ass? Let's take Samara or Miranda from ME2 as an example, both are powerful biotics that are both extremely intelligent as well as insightful but look at their outfits, Miranda's outfit seems to be meant to outline her very nice figure and show more than a bit of cleavage, and Samara, a line void of fabric goes right down her chest in between her breasts; but do we think any less of them because of it? No, they are still powerful and not in anyway tools of a man or bound to the story because of their relationship with Shepard, they both have their own things going on.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Yes, i did pay attention during my half dozen play throughs.

But see, theres a differance between "overtly sexual" and, "Straight up whore". Shes running around, spreading her legs, in a skin tight cat suit made of her own hair, torturing and dominating demons in a way that makes sadists blush, making sexual noises and suggestive comments.

who's she flaunting at?
the angels she's killing?
think about it like this; she just enjoys moving like that
she does it alone, she does it in public, she does it when she's surrounded by hostiles
she's confident and she won't let anyone stop her from dancing or being sexy

that's just a way of thinking about it

And please tell, what male characters are "domineering, in charge, sexually active, aggressive and/or dress in outfits that accentuate or even show off their bodies"? I cant think of a single one! >.>;

almost all male characters in all games today fit at least one of those things

and you want somebody who fits all of them
Garus from Mass Effect 2

and about the outfits there are more than a few JRPG's I could point out

 

[FernandoV]

I think some people don't notice the objectification of men in games because they are used to the idea of strong men as what men should be, while PC obsessed male players think of the broad spectrum of roles a women can fulfill in games.

Pro-tip: Big muscles and rush into battle type attitudes objectify a male just as much as skin tight suits do women in games.

 

[Mikeyfell]

To put in my own two cents, Bayonetta's story doesn't develop her enough to make her any type of icon other than a sex icon but you shouldn't overlook a beautiful game woman just because of her tits or ass? Let's take Samara or Miranda from ME2 as an example, both are powerful biotics that are both extremely intelligent as well as insightful but look at their outfits, Miranda's outfit seems to be meant to outline her very nice figure and show more than a bit of cleavage, and Samara, a line void of fabric goes right down her chest in between her breasts; but do we think any less of them because of it? No, they are still powerful and not in anyway tools of a man or bound to the story because of their relationship with Shepard, they both have their own things going on.

Bayonetta develops in more ways than just through story progression
it's one of those instances of story and gameplay meshing that is so rare now days

and also I hate Miranda
I've said this 1000000 times but I'll say it again

she's very well characterized
I mean she is a Bioware character after all
but she's characterized as a massive ***** who is just about as cocky and immature as a person can be
and she's either schizophrenic or she thinks Shepard is royally stupid

I think her cockiness grew out of her engineered hotness
and her immaturity stemmed from being spoiled by her father, who she hated
she doesn't respect anything
and she expects everyone to be on her side even when she's telling bold faced lies
and her damn self image is so important to her that she'll deny living breathing evidence of something that could tarnish the reputation of everything that she's ever been associated with.

god dammit I hate Miranda so much [/rant]

so she's strongly characterized...into a mega-****
not really a good role model

 

[Vault101]

"but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen". Yes. She totally does. More so then say.... Alyx Vance? Helpful, strong, independant women without triple D's or a ghetto booty?

How about the protagonist of portal? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileortal_Chell.jpg
Smart, independant, strong and yet again, without triple D's or a ghetto booty.

I have a serious question (I'm not trolling)
why does everyone always bring up Valve games when talking about strong female icons
Alyx I get.
but Chell doesn't have any lines of dialog
she doesn't do anything accept escape a crazy science lab

in most other "strong female character" threads Zoe and Rochell from Left 4 Dead come up
WHY?

does the non bombshell body automatically make them a strong character?

well even though chell dosn't speak if you actually think about "her" escaping the lab it requires intelligence. strength and determination

remember when she was heading towards that inferno? that would have been scary as hell but chell didn't just give up and cry like anyone else...she used her quick thinking and escaped and also used her brains to defeat GLaDOS, that whole situation was terryfiying but she pulled through

though because she dosn't speak to most people she's just a walking camera

In the game she is nothing more than a means to an end. You need her character to exist in order to play the game, her intelligence and such is no more than the time you put into finishing the puzzles, you can't characterize her when the developers never even bothered to characterize her themselves. Or, I guess you can, but it just seems you are referencing her because she wears lots of clothes and isn't trying to seduce or flirt with a man; in that case why not talk about BS2's antagonist? or someone like that.

I'm just talking about chell as a charahcter in general, I know she is silent so that the player imerses themselfs, which is the whole idea so many people don't think about her much when it comes to charachterisation, interesting thing is why don't people think that way about gordan freeman? I think that is because there are many charahcters around him, talking to him giving him charachterisation and sort of making him "real" in a way where as chell is on her own and you only see her apearence, BUT you can get some idea about her by her actions

if youre like me and you actually think that its "her" doing all those things we can gather that she is incredibly intelligant strong and determined,

 

[Mikeyfell]

If you get Bayonetta as your feminist icon, we demand Duke Nukem as our masculine icon. Perfect role model, amirite?

um...no
I do believe that the point was missed

 

[Rachel317]

Being "comfertable" with your body and sexuality doesnt mean you run around flaunting it.

Being "strong and independant" doesnt mean beating the crap out of everything that walk, talks, or breaths.

Firstly, beating up Angels is her JOB, so you can't REALLY argue about that...I get what you mean, but still.

However, why SHOULDN'T Bay run around, parting her legs, let her clothes fly off (to be more accurate, PARTIALLY fly off)? If that is her character and personality, who's to say she's right or wrong? She has a well rounded, in depth personality, the sexual stuff only REALLY being a minor part of it. On the other hand, she's calm, doesn't panic often, cares for Cereza, is hurt when Luka is nasty to her, confident, funny...if she's all of these things, why CAN'T there be room for a strong sense of sexual desire and confidence? Sex is the most natural thing in the world, so flaunting the fact that she's a woman...isn't necessarily a bad thing...?

She doesn't move the way she does JUST when men are around (if we're talking purely about the characters, not the audience), she dances for herself (dance off between her and the Joy)...even in the helicopter scene, we see her rubbing the inside of her leg. Luka, however, doesn't. So it's not a case of her doing it for one person or another, that's just how she is.

I'm not saying all female characters should be this way, but why should every female character hide their sexuality?
Are women somehow lessened by being overtly sexual?

Also this.

Why is it that when ever a female character does it she is just there as "fapping materiel" and for that matter why can't a woman IRL dress how she likes without admonishment and claims that "she's just dressing like that to get a reaction from men".

And this.

They arnt unwarrented, nor are they the "Do you want to touch me" type phrases that Bayonetta uses.

Aww, I love her catchphrases!
I use the taunt function constantly just to hear them

"Feminists" seem to judge based on looks just as often as the men they're complaining about.
only they're doing it in reverse, disregarding the attractive women instead of favoring them

I DO agree with you...I think it's because of the extremist views of SOME who put the rest of us off.
It's not that I don't want equal rights for women, it's purely the dominative agenda some seem to have. And on the looks thing...well, I've tried to look past Bayonetta's physical appearance here, and focussed purely on her personality. I don't think it SHOULD be based purely on looks. Look at Gordon from Half Life (right?). He wasn't a great looking guy, nor did he say much (;D), but he's a geek, so people can relate to him.

However, you make a good point - why should Bayonetta NOT be a good role model, just because she's sexy?

Good points, but I just have one question. Apperantly (not sure if it's true or not) the game featured a "one handed" controler play mode, yeah we all know what the fuck that's for. Combine that with the clothing flying off with powerful attacks and well, the game seems like an interactive porn movie.

Apparently, all of the DMC games had this feature too, so it wasn't included with the intention for THAT kind of pleasure, it's just a way the games are made.

 

[Rachel317]

If you get Bayonetta as your feminist icon, we demand Duke Nukem as our masculine icon. Perfect role model, amirite?

um...no
I do believe that the point was missed

Hey, you can have WHOEVER you want for your role model!

But yes, Mikeyfell might be right, I think you missed the point of the post...
Duke Nukem wasn't really like a real guy, he's overly muscular, cool, and I've never seen ANYONE with hair like that in real life. Bayonetta very much has a human side.

I might be wrong, feel free to argue your point about Nukem! I might have missed YOUR point

 

[Zhukov]

I've actually heard similar sentiments directed at Bayonetta from other people, including some women.

One person, Leigh Alexander I think her name was, wrote something along the lines of, "I've always known that we girls can do everything that the guys can do. Now I've finally got a character who does all the things that guys can't do."

I really couldn't put it any better then that.

On the other hand, can a character designed by men for the express purpose of being ogled by other men still be a feminist icon? There's an interview out there with one of Bayonetta's graphic artists in which he goes into great detail about how much effort he put into making her lips look tender and her arse look plump. And it's the creepiest interview in existence since that one with Michael Jackson.

So yeah... I dunno.

Personally I don't mind Bayonetta. The sexualization is so forthright and gratuitous that I really can't hold it against them.

 

[Rachel317]

I've been saying similar things about Bayonetta in much less intelligent ways since the game came out.
I hope that more developers can create such well rounded feminine "Girl Power" characters without resorting to the emotionless, hates sex, tough girl character that has plagued gaming (guys, if you want a feminist character don't just make a female character reject her sexuality, and femininity, do the opposite.)

I couldn't have put it better myself!
There are the two extremes, love or hate sex/men. Yes, Bayonetta DOES fall into the former category, but other things in her personality are often able to overshadow the sexual stuff.
After however many years she's been alive (before Jeanne sealed her away, 520 years ago), maybe she just got tired of hiding her sexuality, or maybe she just developed it as a coping mechanism?

Or maybe she always WAS a sexually aggressive woman. I don't really see why EITHER is such a bad thing.

Ummmm, no, sadly. Bayonetta is meant to be a sex icon, not a feminist one. I don't think strong women want to teach little girls to say "Do you naughty boys need a good spanking?" before they shoot someone.

True, but Bayonetta doesn't teach Cereza to be filthy, does she? In fact, she's quite gentle and loving around her, even when they first meet and she uses her gun to tilt Cereza's head to look at her. She's mothering around children, but sexually powerful when Cereza's not around.
I think you're looking at it a little too literally

 

[Something Amyss]

True, but Bayonetta doesn't teach Cereza to be filthy, does she? In fact, she's quite gentle and loving around her, even when they first meet and she uses her gun to tilt Cereza's head to look at her. She's mothering around children, but sexually powerful when Cereza's not around.
I think you're looking at it a little too literally

Or, perhaps, you're trying to rectify two borderline mutually exclusive concepts and people are picking up on the absurdity. Your justification for her behaviours sound more like shame, not exactly the cornerstone of a feminist icon.

This is what happens when you try and assert what isn't there. You have to retcon severely in order to make it work, and even then, the faults kind of show.

 

[Rachel317]

Or, perhaps, you're trying to rectify two borderline mutually exclusive concepts and people are picking up on the absurdity. Your justification for her behaviours sound more like shame, not exactly the cornerstone of a feminist icon.

This is what happens when you try and assert what isn't there. You have to retcon severely in order to make it work, and even then, the faults kind of show.

...are you trolling?
I understand that you have your opinions, and they obviously differ to mine! But you can't say that I'm not seeing those things and have to go out of my way to justify her behaviour. People are coming up with things, I'm countering them with examples from the game/dialogue itself. I DO see these things in her, the tenderness vs. the sexuality, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this.

But what do you mean, "shame"? I don't think Bayonetta has any shame. And, if I was truly like her, I'd like to think I'd be damn proud for not trying to hide who I really was.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

GIANT SNIP

Very good post I must say. You raise a number of excellent points. I don't have a lot of time to comment right now, but after reading that, I wonder. Have you thought of emailing this to the Extra Credits team? This article makes a number of very strong points on feminism in gaming, and I think it would be a great topic for them to touch on.

 

[oldskoolandi]

I think the difficulty here lies in seperation. Bayonetta's attitude may well be a strong argument for a feminist icon, but her physical appearance is (in my opinion) overly-sexualised. Had she been running about in a less skin tight catsuit that didn't suddenly vanish, the OP's points would be much easier to make. As some people have mentioned, if a male character ran around ripping his shirt off all the time, people would laugh at the OTT machismo of it. If he occasionally whipped his dick out, people would call him a pervert. I think Bayonetta went for a tongue in cheek style, which worked.

To the OP: I may be reading it wrong, but it doesnt seem particularly feminist to me that in order to be proud of your body it has to be a body that appeals to men. If Bay had any physical flaws, I think you'd have a stronger argument. Wouldn't a plain, physically possible figure be more appropriate?

TLR? Bay is intelligent, independent and would be a better feminist icon if she wasn't wrapped in a skin created by men, for men.

 

[Rachel317]

To the OP: I may be reading it wrong, but it doesnt seem particularly feminist to me that in order to be proud of your body it has to be a body that appeals to men. If Bay had any physical flaws, I think you'd have a stronger argument. Wouldn't a plain, physically possible figure be more appropriate?

Absolutely! If she wasn't so hot, then the points I raised would still be valid. There ARE female characters who aren't gorgeous or stunning who can be looked up to. It's just that I only recently played Bayonetta, so it's on my mind a lot. Plus, she's pretty inspirational (to me, at least).

But, as I said, I didn't want to focus on her physical appearance. Only in one of my points (I think), did I mention her body, because I'm trying to focus more on her personality and what she represents, as opposed to how she looks.
But...my question to you, is why does she need to be average-looking to be classified as a role model? Actresses and female musicians aren't subjected to, "Well, I'd like your acting/singing more if you were slightly less beautiful, because then you wouldn't just be a sexual desire to distract men from the plot." Why should Bayonetta be any different?

Very good post I must say. You raise a number of excellent points. I don't have a lot of time to comment right now, but after reading that, I wonder. Have you thought of emailing this to the Extra Credits team? This article makes a number of very strong points on feminism in gaming, and I think it would be a great topic for them to touch on.

Thank you! I hadn't thought of the EC team, no...have they not already done this? I assumed they would have done straight after Yahtzee did the review, but I'm probably wrong. Thanks for the heads up. I might look into it!