Bayonetta as a role model

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Crolley

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Rachel317 said:
Indeed. *Shakes hand* A good debate is always interesting. I can see how people would think she's nothing more than an object of sex. However, I can also see the flipside. I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis of her, though...maybe my argument isn't particularly intricate or analytical to the point where opinions can be changed.

Regardless, she'll always be of inspirational status for me :D

Happy New Year, Sir! I look forward to debating again with you in the future ;)
Ha, I'm not much of a debater actually, so maybe I'll stick to making trite comments on news stories. "Oh, that's interesting." or "I'm looking forward to it."

Really though, It'd be great to debate with you again in the future. Happy New Year, ma'am.
 

Not G. Ivingname

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Rachel317 said:
1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?
To feminists, that was the ultimate goal right up until the break out of HIV in the 70's. Feminists considered the playgirls and other women who were in total control of the sexual being as ALLIES, until they switched camps and started calling it "exployation."

2. Bayonetta is a strong, powerful, highly independent woman. Even Lara Croft has males at her side, helping her. Sure, Bayonetta has Luka (and Rodin and Enzo to a certain extent, although they can largely be ignored, because they don't affect gameplay), but he's only really there to look after Cereza when Bayonetta is kicking Angel arse. She is completely independent and, on the odd occasions when she fights with a partner, it is always Jeanne. Platinum Games presents an environment that truly is a "Woman's World"; even Jubileus, the Creator, is a female, whereas the angels are referred to as "boys" at every turn.
This is the point where I think that feminists want to be but it starts to become oppression of men :/

3. I'll probably be berated for this, but I believe that Bayonetta represents the female form better than a lot of other female characters. Yes, her limbs are exaggerated, but she has curves, an ass, she has breasts and she's not particularly skinny/size zero, which is what the media too often presents as perfection. Sure, she's slim (hell, she fights angels for a living, she has to be in great shape), but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen.
Yeah, Bayonetta figure of that of a real woman who's father just happened to be a giraffe, she has some meat on her bones.

Very, very, very, sexy meat :p

4. This is slightly taken out of context (I'm a Literature student, it's what I do :D), but Bayonetta protects Cereza and tells her that she is a "strong, little girl" and that "there nothing [she] cannot overcome." This is such a lovely sentiment; if the women playing this game can apply this to their own lives, then Bayonetta could be a catalyst in inspiring a generation of strong women with perseverance, intelligence and confidence, both sexually and otherwise.
No arguements here.

5. Bayonetta is completely comfortable in her own skin. Admittedly, she IS gorgeous, with a body to be proud of, and seems to be just as comfortable naked as she is fully clothed. Despite how beautiful she is, she's also teaching a great lesson because, if more women could feel comfortable with themselves, we'd be in a much happier place. Bayonetta never claims to be gorgeous but rather seems to be largely oblivious. She DOES say to Luka, "Do I LOOK like I have any interest in children?", referencing her body. But that could be more about how in shape she is as opposed to how hot she is. As I say, she never makes a reference to her own beauty, which suggests that you can still be confident and sexy, even if you're relatively average-looking.

I'm aware that this is not a particularly new or revolutionary opinion of Bayonetta, but I had formed this opinion before I read any of the articles about her. Bayonetta oozes sexuality and sensuality, and doesn't shy away from it. She embraces her beauty, and why shouldn't she? As I said, I don't think the creators set about to portray women in a vulgar way, which is evidenced by one of the PG team who was upset over the art works of Bayonetta which paired her down to being purely a sexual object. She has an intriguing personality that doesn't revolve around sex. I ADORE Bayonetta as a character, and as a role model, encompassing many ideals and sentiments. Women SHOULD be sexy, women ARE sexy. Women can be sexy and wear glasses, be intelligent, be witty and cool. Bayonetta just projects this idea more into the public eye than it has been in the past.
Again, I have no comment.

I would just like to say, I am by no means a feminist. I don't believe that women should be superior to men, just equal.
And that makes you more of a true feminist then 99% of self proclaimed "feminists," or at least the ones that blog about it.
 

Necromancer1991

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No offense but as Moviebob's Bond Girl special stated what's hailed as the paragon of the feminist movement one day may be the worst the movement has to offer the next, all that aside good post :D
 

TrollOgerElf

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the equivalent would be
Hookers are now icons in feminism. Yay Hookers!

But seriously I am not sure if you are trolling or not.
 

Rachel317

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TrollOgerElf said:
the equivalent would be
Hookers are now icons in feminism. Yay Hookers!

But seriously I am not sure if you are trolling or not.
Is it possible that you're trolling? There is very little significant contribution here.
If you read through the prior posts, you'll see that this is a serious topic, in which a lot of good points are being raised, both for and against Bayonetta.
 

TheSolemnHypnotic

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I don't really have any role models, but Bayonetta was awesome. The reason I bought the game was because she (from the trailer) reminded me a lot of Dante from DMC.
Playing the game I did kind of feel a little embarrassed, but laughed at everything overtly sexual (which was a lot of stuff). The reason is because I'm not use to that kind of behavior from female characters in games.
They're either *I'm one of the dudes kill, kill, kill* or *I'm kidnapped soo... yeah* or *I'm in this cutscene just so you can see some cleave*
Bayonetta made me admire her confidence, wit, and beauty. (I as a female, was happy to finally see a female with a real behind rather than two blimps for a chest).
I think however, it was the subtle hints of femininity not sexuality that made that game so great (like her sashay).

I especially love the butterfly wings in her shadow. :)
 

Rachel317

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Ti said:
They're either *I'm one of the dudes kill, kill, kill* or *I'm kidnapped soo... yeah* or *I'm in this cutscene just so you can see some cleave*
Bayonetta made me admire her confidence, wit, and beauty. (I as a female, was happy to finally see a female with a real behind rather than two blimps for a chest).
I think however, it was the subtle hints of femininity not sexuality that made that game so great (like her sashay).
Her walk is SO sexy.
Those hips...man, she's gorgeous :D

Also, love the "two blimps for a chest"! This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Yes, she's very much exaggerated, but her breasts, bum and legs (not the length, but the definition) are relatively true to life. Real women DO look like this, they DO have curves. Why should this be shied away from, just because Bayonetta's a game character?
It makes a lovely, refreshing change from the "I don't need a man, I don't need ANYONE", and "Argh, I'm a damsel in distress" women, as you say. She's conflicted on so many levels, shes neither one nor the other. In fact, Bayonetta's vulnerability is shown, mainly when she back flips enough, when she
is captured by Balder
, and when she believes Cereza to be in danger.
 

Kirch Libre

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Jun 22, 2010
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Yeah okay whatever you say. Sarcasm half implied. And no I don't feel like contributing anything else, because I'm too sexy for that.
 

Rachel317

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MrHero17 said:
I'm getting a vibe from the people who don't agree with the OP that men finding Bay attractive or wanting to bang her means she can not be a feministic icon and I don't really get that. If I thought Alyx Vance was sexy and I considered her to be eye candy when I played HL2 does that mean that no one could use her as an example of a strong female character? Hell, I've always though Samus was sexy on a number of levels but that never made me think of her as not being a strong woman.

Also, as someone who owns the game it seemed to me like Bay wasn't really flaunting her sexiness it since ignoring the player she's alone whenever she fights. For many an angel the sight of Bay poledancing was the last thing they ever saw. Felt to me like Bay was just really comfortable with who she was and how she looks and I found that refreshing.

No one called Marcus and Dom masturbation fodder for women because you spend the entire game staring at their uncovered, ripped arms.
I couldn't agree more. People forget that women are just as sexual as men, if not more so. It's not ONLY men that can take sexual pleasure from game characters.
Samus' clothes fell off when she dies to reveal her scantily clad in a night dress...surely the same rules apply?

Your second point is EXACTLY what I was trying to say; yes, maybe Bay IS geared more towards males for the sexual stuff (over-generalising, I know. I apologise for not being able to put it more articulately) and women for the sensitive, nurturing, compassionate side of her personality.
But, as you say, you don't necessarily feel sexually attracted to someone which automatically prevents them from being a role model.
 

Mikeyfell

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kouriichi said:
But by that arguement, your saying that Dead or Alive Extreame Beach Vollyball is the greatest "feminist icon" of all time. Its an extreamly diverse group of women, who are all increadably strong and independant. They are comfertable with theyer bodys and sexuality and theyer all able to take charge.
the thing about the DOA girls is that (with the exception of maybe Helena) they're all immature little girls
I've played through DOA 4 and the only one of them that showed any adult maturity was Helena

and Christie but she falls into the Ice Queen model that Movie Bob mentioned

when asked to describe Bayonetta "girlie" is not one of the words that comes to mind

and also I think everyone would be better off if "fighting games" were left alone to be a fan service genera. Deep characters and stories aren't even wanted in fighting games. so just play live and let live with the overt sexuality in fighting games.
face it that's really the only reason they sell
 

kouriichi

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Mikeyfell said:
kouriichi said:
But by that arguement, your saying that Dead or Alive Extreame Beach Vollyball is the greatest "feminist icon" of all time. Its an extreamly diverse group of women, who are all increadably strong and independant. They are comfertable with theyer bodys and sexuality and theyer all able to take charge.
the thing about the DOA girls is that (with the exception of maybe Helena) they're all immature little girls
I've played through DOA 4 and the only one of them that showed any adult maturity was Helena

and Christie but she falls into the Ice Queen model that Movie Bob mentioned

when asked to describe Bayonetta "girlie" is not one of the words that comes to mind

and also I think everyone would be better off if "fighting games" were left alone to be a fan service genera. Deep characters and stories aren't even wanted in fighting games. so just play live and let live with the overt sexuality in fighting games.
face it that's really the only reason they sell
Lol. Fighting games only sell because of sexuality? Thats ahhhh..... pretty far off the money. I think its more because of the violance then the sexuality. Infact, one of the biggest line of games ever, Street Fighter, is possibly one of the least sexual games ever created.

And i wouldent describe half the girls from DOA as "Girlie". Well lets see, Ayane and Kasumi are both ninja, you dont get much stronger or independant then that. Lei Fang is described by players and even Wiki as "an independent spirit, but also spunky, and intelligent". Tina is the daughter of a world famous wrestler, and chokeslams anyone who gets in her way. And to top it off, Christie is your basic assassin with no ties to the community, and no feelings to anyone. ((we cant forget "Nicole-458", the playable Spartan from the halo universe. She was a purely non-cannon camio character, but she was till a great character.))
Yes. All of them are "Girlie fanservice" with theyer 20 page long background storys, extreamly deep personalitys, and deep ties into several other games, anime and manga.

Where as Bayonetta is her own game, based around her hyper-sexuality, paper thin personality, plothole riddled backstory, and ability to heal herself by eating loli-pops and asking, "Do you want to touch me".

She is totaly an "Icon" of feminists. The bad kind that think men should serve women because they are a lower species of being.
 

Alice Malice

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Rachel I would have to absolutely agree with you, great post. As a modern feminist myself (no, not a man-hating one) I thought this was what made Bayonetta a special character (and hopefully the start of well done females in the future!).
 

Mikeyfell

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kouriichi said:
Lol. Fighting games only sell because of sexuality? Thats ahhhh..... pretty far off the money. I think its more because of the violance then the sexuality. Infact, one of the biggest line of games ever, Street Fighter, is possibly one of the least sexual games ever created.
I suppose you're right. I never got into the "violent" fighting games
never cared for Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter or Tekken
I always loved Soul Calibre and DOA
the famous "slap random buttons foo" is just more enjoyable (for me) when your avatar is hotter than hell


kouriichi said:
And i wouldent describe half the girls from DOA as "Girlie". Well lets see, Ayane and Kasumi are both ninja, you dont get much stronger or independant then that. Lei Fang is described by players and even Wiki as "an independent spirit, but also spunky, and intelligent". Tina is the daughter of a world famous wrestler, and chokeslams anyone who gets in her way. And to top it off, Christie is your basic assassin with no ties to the community, and no feelings to anyone. ((we cant forget "Nicole-458", the playable Spartan from the halo universe. She was a purely non-cannon camio character, but she was till a great character.))
Yes. All of them are "Girlie fanservice" with theyer 20 page long background storys, extreamly deep personalitys, and deep ties into several other games, anime and manga.
see that's the thing about fighting games. the story is always completely separate from the gameplay.
I played the game with out reading their "20 page long background stories" and all I got from it was that Li-Fang fought with Hitome for flirting with the old man selling cabbage
Tina's rebelling against her father
and Christie would sooner kill you than hold your hand
and I forgot everything that happened in Lisa's story

just by playing the game (which is what we're talking about) all you get is that these girls are there to look hot.
that's not what most people get about Bayonetta



kouriichi said:
Where as Bayonetta is her own game, based around her hyper-sexuality, paper thin personality, plothole riddled backstory, and ability to heal herself by eating loli-pops and asking, "Do you want to touch me".

She is totaly an "Icon" of feminists. The bad kind that think men should serve women because they are a lower species of being.
reading this last part makes me think you're ignorant
it reeks of being uninformed

it's like saying The Empire Strikes Back was the worst Star Wars movie because it was boring
you missed all the deeper meaning and judged on the most basic level of what you saw

that section of your post also makes me want to say check your damn spelling in the future
 

jamesworkshop

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Rachel317 said:
I search bar-ed this and didn't find anything similar, but I apologise if it's been done before.

I know my argument is quite long, but I've tried to split it up into as many purdy, bite-sized chunks as possible.

Alright, on to the topic at hand! So, amazingly, I only just played Bayonetta (I know, disgusting, right???) and I really love Bayonetta both as a character and as an icon for feminism. I don't really want this discussion to turn into a debate over whether the game was good or not, just the titular character herself. OK, to be more specific, you might not necessarily buy into the feminism thing, but the fact that she could easily be seen as a good role model coincides with this.

1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?

2. Bayonetta is a strong, powerful, highly independent woman. Even Lara Croft has males at her side, helping her. Sure, Bayonetta has Luka (and Rodin and Enzo to a certain extent, although they can largely be ignored, because they don't affect gameplay), but he's only really there to look after Cereza when Bayonetta is kicking Angel arse. She is completely independent and, on the odd occasions when she fights with a partner, it is always Jeanne. Platinum Games presents an environment that truly is a "Woman's World"; even Jubileus, the Creator, is a female, whereas the angels are referred to as "boys" at every turn.

3. I'll probably be berated for this, but I believe that Bayonetta represents the female form better than a lot of other female characters. Yes, her limbs are exaggerated, but she has curves, an ass, she has breasts and she's not particularly skinny/size zero, which is what the media too often presents as perfection. Sure, she's slim (hell, she fights angels for a living, she has to be in great shape), but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen.

4. This is slightly taken out of context (I'm a Literature student, it's what I do :D), but Bayonetta protects Cereza and tells her that she is a "strong, little girl" and that "there nothing [she] cannot overcome." This is such a lovely sentiment; if the women playing this game can apply this to their own lives, then Bayonetta could be a catalyst in inspiring a generation of strong women with perseverance, intelligence and confidence, both sexually and otherwise.

5. Bayonetta is completely comfortable in her own skin. Admittedly, she IS gorgeous, with a body to be proud of, and seems to be just as comfortable naked as she is fully clothed. Despite how beautiful she is, she's also teaching a great lesson because, if more women could feel comfortable with themselves, we'd be in a much happier place. Bayonetta never claims to be gorgeous but rather seems to be largely oblivious. She DOES say to Luka, "Do I LOOK like I have any interest in children?", referencing her body. But that could be more about how in shape she is as opposed to how hot she is. As I say, she never makes a reference to her own beauty, which suggests that you can still be confident and sexy, even if you're relatively average-looking.

I'm aware that this is not a particularly new or revolutionary opinion of Bayonetta, but I had formed this opinion before I read any of the articles about her. Bayonetta oozes sexuality and sensuality, and doesn't shy away from it. She embraces her beauty, and why shouldn't she? As I said, I don't think the creators set about to portray women in a vulgar way, which is evidenced by one of the PG team who was upset over the art works of Bayonetta which paired her down to being purely a sexual object. She has an intriguing personality that doesn't revolve around sex. I ADORE Bayonetta as a character, and as a role model, encompassing many ideals and sentiments. Women SHOULD be sexy, women ARE sexy. Women can be sexy and wear glasses, be intelligent, be witty and cool. Bayonetta just projects this idea more into the public eye than it has been in the past.

I would just like to say, I am by no means a feminist. I don't believe that women should be superior to men, just equal. l DO believe, however, that lessons can be learned from Bayonetta. The game, and character, don't represent women as "better", just as having different strengths to men. Rodin makes Bay's weapons, she kicks arse with them.

So, what do you fine people of The Escapist think about Bayonetta as a feminist icon?

EDIT: OK, the feminism thing is being brought up quite a lot. When I say I'm not a feminist, I mean an extremist. I believe in equal rights, but that's as far as it goes, but I only pointed it out because I wanted to have a more unbiased opinion; namely, would I get so excited if a male character came out who I could thoroughly relate to? The answer to this is "Yes", I just wanted to clarify.
Happy posting! This is turning into an excellent discussion, with a LOT of good points being raised!
1
I would say that i'm not really against your possition or conclusion but I do have a few reasoning issues mainly bringing the topic of feminism is a tricky one, your point relies on a sex-possitive branch of feminist theory which is not a held by all feminists, I think it would be more honest for you to have recognised that fact, it also good when making a point to have examples as well as contradictions/exceptions to your point.

2
I think my biggest issue is here
Videogame land is almost exculsivly populated by competant
characters, females are almost never displayed as being less competant especially in physical combat, In fact females often display prowess that in the real world they do not in a comparative sence (humans don't have demon strenght) when compared to men.

Thats a moot point as I don't believe the "strong, Independant woman" tagline is meant to encapsulate the capacity for dishing out smacky face.

The inability to ask for help is a point against the masculine viewpoint (men won't ask directions when driving), it seems to be a feminist idea that asking for help is actually an advantage or a better philosophy than mens often emotionally selfdestructive mantra of not asking for help as it is a sign of weakness.

As a feminist, one should be very accepting of help from others (not the same as being 100% incompetant and requring others to do everything for you), although does not have to specifically be men or only limited to other women, Bayonetta does have help from both genders as does Lara Croft it would seem that you are arguing against your position here.

3.
I have less issue here, the reasoning is mostly sound, you even recognise the ways she does not match the human body (limb lenght longer than normal, regardless of sex)

I think the boobs focus is a by-product of Americanism, Ivy for instance is often mentioned despite having even more powerfully structured shoulders and limbs than Bayonetta has, and yet boobs is all that ever gets mentioned, really it's a dead end it would be the same if most females characters had exaggerated Ba-donk-a-donk, only then for a character to break the mold by having a heaving chest.

Somewhat ironically size zero is a big issue in contrast to the reality that for adults, size zero is almost non existant and to be fair almost all women intended for male gaze tend to be curvy jessica rabbit types, it's important to make the distiction between catwalk models and glamour models, one is clearly not being represented (catwalk model) as an example of male interest but is often misrepresented as being such in arguments.

Bayonetta in fact almost perfectly represents the design females are given
(strong legs, prominent hips) when intended to be visually appealing to men,
We men are quite aware we like boobs and bums "real women have curves" slogan is reactionary to an entirely manufactured problem that does not exist, we already find women like that attractive, thanks

4.
I don't disagree with the sentiment but I believe that she is redundant in this case, that message is hardly revolutionary it's in fact a product of the social change that has occured up to this point, we have not reached full equality sure in gender or other such issues, but we have atleast got that far.
A feminist argument might be that it would QED, not be the case that the world is up for grabs if people need to have such thing be told to them.

I think it's a litte backwards to sell women short that they would be made better people if they played this game, in that reguards althought I don't find reasoning like that above to be entirely solid, i'll admits it is a bit weak.

5.
I have no issue here, one of the things that the Internet has allowed is more open discussions because of hidden identity, because I really had no idea that women were so uncomfortable with their physical appearance in number implying a majority aside from a by-product of general shy/awkward-ness
I found it very strange but maybe not everyone grew up in a house where most times I was having a bath another family member would be brushing their teeth
(don't have privacy when the door has no lock), we are not nudists exactly but a lack of clothing was not shocking.


What I would like to see more of is an exploration of sexuality from a female viewpoint, I'm quite aware of my own tastes but what exactly do women find attractive in men, not just for my benifit, most women tend not to be able to see what some women see in the men they have picked.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Erana said:
...characters that normalize women in independant and powerful roles.
Which, in its own right, can be just as important.
And is equally lacking in men.

Look how many men HAVE to have a woman, HAVE to have a barrel chest, HAVE to have a suit.

Same brush, similar paint.

Rachel317 said:
Samus' clothes fell off when she dies to reveal her scantily clad in a night dress...surely the same rules apply?
Like Arthur drops down to his boxers when he gets hit in Ghosts and Goblins?

Think about it for a moment, he spends over half his time in game in the male equivalent of lingerie (Which is a lot harder not to let your bits fall out), fighting a truly impossible task (Even with quicksave); and it's sexist against females?

Swap the gender roles, so the Princess drops down to her bra/panties when she gets hit. Still sexist against females?

Feminism needs to explore what it LIKES, what it considers positive because just hating ALL OF THE ABOVE isn't working anymore.