Bayonetta as a role model

[Rachel317]

-snip-

First thing's first, Lara BEGAN as fan service, before developing into an icon/legend. Bayonetta could well be the same. Most of the "strong" women in video games are ENTIRELY unrealistic, as they are often presented as wholly unapproachable, Ice Queens who don't need men. Bayonetta turned the stereotype on it's head by acknowledging that she loves sex. She's one of few female characters who has an in depth personality, but that treats sex in the blasé way that it SHOULD be treated. It shouldn't be a taboo subject, and it shouldn't be surrounded by formality and rigidity.

Lara Croft has been round for over a decade now - she's had time to build up a following. We mustn't forget that, if it hadn't been Lara, it would have been another character, by another developer. Females would, eventually, have broken into games, partially due to the popularity of Sigourney Weaver as Ripley in Aliens, which really helped to turn around the female role.
But I'm not saying that Bayonetta can only be an icon when she's made PG massive amounts of money. IMO, she can still be looked up to for the representation she's had thus far.
I appreciate what you're saying, don't get me wrong. But I don't think someone needs to have a massive following to be an icon/role model. I look up to a woman in a band which doesn't have a HUGE amount of fans, due to her hard work and attitude. She might not be an icon to people who haven't heard of her, but some people will look up to her :/

Im sure you have male inspirations who I might now be able to understand, right? But just because that's the case, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong, we just obviously see inspiration in different things. And that's OK!

 

[Labyrinth]

If Bayonetta was a real woman, many guys would rather label her a "slut" because they know they could never have her, than risk getting shot down.

I find it decidedly ironic that someone is labelled a 'slut' when they won't sleep with another person. Where does the logic come from, vain hope that the woman in question will be and relent?

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Bayonetta: I'm every woman.

Kay....

Nobody insinuated that.
Name one male character who is TRULY an every man. And Gordion from Half Life doesn't count, because he doesn't speak, thus the player is invited to create his personality and backstory, or possibly even to project themselves on to him.
One character with a fully developed personality with the same, normal conflicts, problems, strengths and weaknesses as a normal guy. They don't exist, because they're fantasy people. They may be conflicted on some levels, but other than Homer Simpson in the Simpson games, a fantasy "every man" doesn't exist, because they're not fun to play.

How about the character named "Everyman" in that famous morality tale?

 

[M Rotter]

I think that everyone needs to characterize both genders outside of sex before going anywhere near the sexuality thing. Not ignore it obviously because sexuality is apart of the human condition, but if you dont have a solid foundation of understanding, the rest is more shaky.But how to do any deliberate characterization of anything that's not linked directly into our brains i think is a tall order because anything that's not is severely open to interpretation. People are going to see what they want to see in a visual media.

 

[M Rotter]

i dunno i think the problem is is that people are comparing stereotypes to the example given, in this case Bayonetta. I mean these things wouldnt be a problem if everyone could forget the stereotypes. Obviously thats in a perfect world and unlikely but shouldnt that be what we're striving for? Comparing things to old stereotypes is just going to make a new one. Sure the new one might not be as "offensive" but really generalizing any group of people is offensive (and not generalizations like christians believe in god but generalizations like women are emotional and guys will fuck anything.)

 

[Rachel317]

I find it decidedly ironic that someone is labelled a 'slut' when they won't sleep with another person. Where does the logic come from, vain hope that the woman in question will be and relent?

I didn't explain this very clearly. What I meant, is that it's easier to criticise something than to try and get it for yourself. I don't mean she would be a slut, as you say she doesn't sleep with just anyone, but women get tarred with that brush due to the way they look, act and dress as opposed to the truth of the matter. So it's easier to say, "Oh yeah, I don't want her, she's a slut" than admit you would fail before you even TRIED to get her.

i dunno i think the problem is is that people are comparing stereotypes to the example given, in this case Bayonetta. I mean these things wouldnt be a problem if everyone could forget the stereotypes. Obviously thats in a perfect world and unlikely but shouldnt that be what we're striving for? Comparing things to old stereotypes is just going to make a new one. Sure the new one might not be as "offensive" but really generalizing any group of people is offensive (and not generalizations like christians believe in god but generalizations like women are emotional and guys will fuck anything.)

Also this. People are unable to see past her physical appearance, and you're right, we're not meant to be talking stereotypes, but what Bayonetta as a character can do to abolish these stereotypes. One stereotype is that women aren't as sexual as men, but this is completely inaccurate, it's just that it's frowned upon to acknowledge it. If a guy sleeps with 5 girls a night, he gets high-fives from his friends and congratulated. A woman does the same, and she's a slut. There is STILL oppression, even in today's society, it's just that it's not quite as obvious as it used to be.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

Bayonetta is the epitome of objectifying women.

I wouldn't say shes the best role model or icon.

 

[likalaruku]

1)Not going to agree with this one unless she's a dominatrix.

3)If you're going by American standards, Rosie O'Donnald represents the current trend in modern female form. Haha.

 

[Rachel317]

1)Not going to agree with this one unless she's a dominatrix.

3)If you're going by American standards, Rosie O'Donnald represents the current trend in modern female form. Haha.

Look at Monkey from Enslaved; he runs around with no shirt on, and skin tight pants. Is he JUST eye candy for women? Is he an arse hole who likes to show off his chest, or is that just part of his character. Is Dante a sodding egotist because he runs around with his chest bared? Or can these outward appearances be overlooked to the reasons WHY they dress like that, or act in a certain way?

And no, I'm not going by "American standards", I'm English and don't know who Rosie O'Donnald is.
I'm not going by ANY standards, just in general.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Eventhough you do make good points, I don't consider Bayonetta a good female rolemodel. Simply because she isn't going to be looked at as anything but a sexual fantasy. I don't mind a little eye candy, but Bayonetta seemed to relish in sexual inuendo to the point of blatent fan service.

I think that feminism has pretty much destroyed itself in that regard. When you look at stars like Beyonce or Lady Gaga, do you see a shallow objectification of women or feminists who are using their sexuality to empower themselves? Either way, it only seems to solidify the idea of women as sexual playthings.

I am more or less going to have to agree with this, frankly. Although decent points are made by the OP, as well.

However, I still can't play a game in which the lead female character has legs 6 feet long on their own either. Just creeps me right the fuck out.

 

[likalaruku]

Not familiar with Enslaved. Do not want to see shirtless men.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

Bayonetta is the epitome of objectifying women.

Define "objectify".

"Objectification is the process by which an abstract concept is treated as if it is a concrete thing or physical object."

Do you live in China or something? or were you just too lazy to google it?

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

"Objectification is the process by which an abstract concept is treated as if it is a concrete thing or physical object."

Do you live in China or something? or were you just too lazy to google it?

Aren't you the one who is objectifying her by saying she's the "epitome of objectifying women" then?
You pretty much are treating that character as a concrete thing. Aren't you.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Bayonetta was created to be a sexual object... You can say ANYTHING you want about the story or themes in the game, but the person who came up with her did so without considering any female perspective whatsoever... while basically objectifying the entirety of womanhood at one fell swoop.

Edit: The abstract concept is not Bayonetta in this situation... Bayonetta is technically a concrete thing. She exists as code.

The abstract concept is the thing being objectified (in this case, women... or to be more precise since women can be misconstrued in this sense to be a concrete thing, the essence of womanhood).

I never realized how hard of a word to explain "objectify" is til now... Basically, I was just saying that Bayonetta is a bad feminist icon, regardless of what she does in the game, simply because of the way she looks/acts.

 

[Rachel317]

"Objectification is the process by which an abstract concept is treated as if it is a concrete thing or physical object."

Do you live in China or something? or were you just too lazy to google it?

Aren't you the one who is objectifying her by saying she's the "epitome of objectifying women" then?
You pretty much are treating that fictional character as a concrete thing. Aren't you.

She is only objectified if you objectify her.
It's like saying that pole dancing degrades women. Well...no, not really. They choose to pole dance, for their own pleasure or someone else's, whatever their reasons, but who REALLY is being used in this instance? The women, in full control of the situation, or the men who willingly part with their money to get a glimpse of flesh, with no hope of anything more?

I don't mean to be rude, but I get the impression that you, too, have absolutely missed the point of my argument. I'm getting a little tired of countering this argument. She's a deeper character than just the sexual front, as is seen in game if you care to look for it, and evidenced by the developers of the game who have given her a well-rounded personality for a reason. Why must she shy away from her sexuality? Why does this devalue her as a woman?
Still a lot of sexism and oppression kicking around...

Not familiar with Enslaved. Do not want to see shirtless men.

Doesn't matter, that doesn't mean a male character, running around without a shirt on, doesn't exist. Is he objectified and sexualised purely for the female gamers?

 

[Rachel317]

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Who would've thought that.

It's like calling something "racist", you know. A self-perpetuating concept.
People were calling resident evil 5 "racist" unaware that by doing so, they themselves were "racist" because of their inability to see the black zombies as what they were: zombified human beings.
By labeling bayonetta an "objectification of women and nothing else" you're robbing her of the possibility to represent something else.

And you're not even aware that you're the one doing the objectification.

Exactly this. Well said, 9_6.

Also, the lead designer of Bayonetta was a woman so...point null and void.

 

[jamesworkshop]

Its time to call in the big guns:
http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

As usual, 'MovieBob' is able to analyze things with enough sense of intelligence to make valid points, backing up his points with evidence as necessary. For every criticism that someone would have, he already thought of it and already made counterpoints to them.

And for the next act:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viDFTwy5LeA

A gameplay vid of Bayonetta, showing off combat and such. The 'Cammy kicks' in particular are pretty hilarious, and the idea of having her being both silly and empowering just seems odd. Its as 'MovieBob' said, she may be the one and only example of a woman that's both empowering and hyper-sexualized. Her oddly-long legs have a purpose if you watch the combat, its to allow her to pull off those moves and aim the guns on her shoes in ways to survive. Not perfect, but it has a purpose. As for her hair and other fetishized looks, that's up to individual views, but again 'MovieBob' made lots of points.

The glasses imply a degree of intelligence, though its not entirely fleshed out. The hair is that way perhaps to facilitate the creation/removal of clothing. The legs, as mentioned, are that way to facilitate combat in very specific ways, she couldn't move around like she does otherwise (hopping around like a spider almost, how fitting).

Even the lollipop-fetish thing is decently analyzed, and its explained as something that's supposed to be a stab at social commentary.

In other words, Bayonetta's character is more complex then at first glance, she seems hypersexualized but she's managed to pull off being empowered rather than submissive or being an 'ice queen'. While Bob didn't even mention FF6's female characters, his other points are valid enough to make sense.

So yeah, Bob makes this a /thread. ^_^

I agree with his points but you really cannot /thread with a youtube video, bob's opinion is not the only game in town