Bioware Has Sequel Issues: ME 2 and DA 2

[Canadish]

I'd agree with the OP as well.
Though, the problem with each game seemed different to me.

Dragon Age 2 did not have an antagonist. The Arishok was built up as one, but ultimately died early, not involved with the main Templars vs Mages debate. He was merely a very good side quest villain.
Bioware were clearly aiming to try an make Meredith the bad guy, but we'd only just met her, so it all fell apart.
She was just Straw man Security extremist. With a Lightsaber.

Mass Effect 2's antagonist was Harbinger.
The problem there was that Harbinger was incompetent.
Not once, other then at the start of the game (and importantly, before the player has "assumed control" *cough*) does he ever prove a viable threat.

Shepard walks into an ambush, out numbered, outgunned, surrounded, in the middle of the enemy base, on dodgy info from his Boss man, TIM.
Shepard walks away from the ambush fine, no casualties, vital info on the biology and history of the Collecters, and a weapon upgrade.
The Collecters just failed as bad guys. They were not scary. They never had one up on us outside of cutscenes. They may as well have been Mercs/Mechs/Geth.
Only they were worse then that, because Harbinger kept throwing around his UTTERLY ridiculous taunts. I couldn't take him seriously after I'd killed him for the 26th time.
"I am your Genetic dest-" *BLAM*

Its a shame because Mass Effect 2 had very few problems otherwise.
If they just improved/changed these areas, it would have been 10/10;
The Collecters viable threat level. Make them fitting Reaper avatars.
Return the Reapers to mysterious "beyond our understanding" void dwellers.
Get rid of the Terminator Reaper baby. I was half expecting the Normandy Megazord to fly in.
Let the player flip TIM right away. My Shepard would have never worked with him.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

That's an interesting take on those games, and while I can't comment on Dragon Age 2, I would say that I can agree with you on Mass Effect 2.

I dunno, compared to the first one, Mass Effect 2 didn't feel as.....epic as Mass Effect 1. In the first one, you had a sense that you were part of something bigger. The galaxy was wide and open, you could explore many of the planets in search of resources or sidequests. Sure, it got tedious to use the Mako, but it gave a sense of space to the infinite space. It was tangible, but at the same time gave you an epic feel.

Mass Effect 2 didn't have that. It was restricted, limited in what you could do. There were no vehicle sections to break the monotony, no weapon upgrades or attachments to explore customization, little personalization or customization in your items or equipment, and it was all shooting. Shooting, reloading, shooting, reloading. It was a linear, drastically simplified (not dumbed down) shoot-fest from set piece to set piece. It wasn't epic, it didn't feel open or sprawling, which is ironic since you could explore much more of the galaxy (yet you could never land on any planet that didn't already have a premade design).

This is why I'm nervous for Mass Effect 3, I'm afraid it's going to continue the trend of linearity and di-epicness of the whole thing. Apparently BioWare are adding some things back, like some weapon modification and some skill trees, but I'm still nervous about it. We'll just have to wait and see.

I agree you with you MOSTLY, honestly, no one missed the vehicle sections, the mako handled like Shepard was drunk while driving

Honestly, I missed the vehicle sections, if only for the variety. It's not like BioWare had to completely scrap the idea like they did, they could have easily done some improvements (like make the terrain less bumpy and steep, or make the Mako have boosters worth a fuck).

And this is why I really hope they bring back the Hammerhead, but make it much more durable. The sections where you drive that wonderful little machine are tons of fun, and have none of the problems the Mako did.

I'd really enjoy blowing up some more stuff in a hovercraft.

 

[Krion_Vark]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

Granted, ME2 did a better job. However, the collectors were still just a bunch grunts that could very easily be replaced with the LOKI mechs and you wouldn't loose a single thing.

Harbinger
/thread

Seriously he is THE enemy of the game and the way it seems he is going to be THE enemy of 3. He is the one that is taking on Shepard while every other Reaper can go on a mindless killing spree. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the reapers are a giant Hive mind and Soverign was one "queen" if you will while Harbinger is the other one.

 

[GiantRaven]

And this is why I really hope they bring back the Hammerhead, but make it much more durable. The sections where you drive that wonderful little machine are tons of fun, and have none of the problems the Mako did.

I'd really enjoy blowing up some more stuff in a hovercraft.

It has some great lines in the Overlord mission as well. I'd love to see it become a full character.

 

[Jumplion]

It's not like BioWare had to completely scrap the idea like they did, they could have easily done some improvements (like make the terrain less bumpy and steep, or make the Mako have boosters worth a fuck).

What? All the changes that BioWare did to Mass Effect 2 were scrapping mechanics from the first game. Sure, it was better than the clunky inventory and the pointless skill trees but they didn't actually make an effort to actually improve them.

Essentially, they ignored the problems and completely removed it all together without thinking of improving them. Sounds about right.

I think bioware did a good job of keeping both games seperate and different. They didn't improve on the first game, they almost scrapped the system. This was a good thing, because it doesn't make going back and playing a chore.
You can go back to the first game, and it is different enough from the second that you don't feel downgraded.
The differences are good.

That's an.....interesting way of looking at it. I don't see how completely scrapping functioning game mechanics without even attempting at improving them can be seen as progress. I'm not against removing flaws or making differences, but not all differences are good.

I think the differences between Mass Effect 1 and 2 was its downfall. Mass Effect 1 was a space opera. Mass Effect 2 felt like "Third Person Shooter in Space #0138". They removed the key aspects that made Mass Effect 1 so unique without ever thinking of improving it. I think it was an overreaction to the hate that the mining minerals got.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

Granted, ME2 did a better job. However, the collectors were still just a bunch grunts that could very easily be replaced with the LOKI mechs and you wouldn't loose a single thing.

Harbinger
/thread

Seriously he is THE enemy of the game and the way it seems he is going to be THE enemy of 3. He is the one that is taking on Shepard while every other Reaper can go on a mindless killing spree. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the reapers are a giant Hive mind and Soverign was one "queen" if you will while Harbinger is the other one.

But you never actually meet Harbinger other than when he possesses a random Collector, and those are only slightly stronger than the normal ones. There is no conversation with him like there was with Sovereign in the first game. He just parrots the same 5 lines over again during battles.

 

[Shaoken]

You know when they did this with the Empire Strikes back, it was considered brilliant. But when people do that today it's considered bad writing. *shakes head*

It's the middle act of a story. It has the disadvantage of having no beggining and no end, and considering those set-backs I thought it did a good job. Granted I haven't played DA2 (although I've been told by people the hate on it is undeserved), but ME2 worked. No villians? It's beaten into your head right off the bat that the Reaper's are behind the collectors. How is that having no villians?

 

[AlternatePFG]

It's not like BioWare had to completely scrap the idea like they did, they could have easily done some improvements (like make the terrain less bumpy and steep, or make the Mako have boosters worth a fuck).

What? All the changes that BioWare did to Mass Effect 2 were scrapping mechanics from the first game. Sure, it was better than the clunky inventory and the pointless skill trees but they didn't actually make an effort to actually improve them.

Essentially, they ignored the problems and completely removed it all together without thinking of improving them. Sounds about right.

Oh god, I totally misread that like "It's not like BioWare to completely scrap the idea like they did". My bad there.

 

[Weofparadigm]

but the point is that they are scary BECAUSE you don't see much of them. Besides, name me one other villain who kills the hero at the start of the story. The Collectors completely caught the Normandy with its' pants around its' ankles. The seekers should have by all rights made them unbeatable (but obviously not or you can't beat the game). I haven't played Dragon Age at all but I simply can't agree with your point that ME2 has a crappy villain.

PS The Collector's particle beam is the only heavy weapon worth using, so that's something else they bring to the game

 

[BlindChance]

Oh, heck yeah. As I noted many times, "ME2 lacks a villain with a face I can punch."

The weird thing is that it's Sovereign who is the big bad of ME1, but it's Saren we remember. Why? One: We see him earlier, and Two: We can punch his face.

Seriously, Bioware. Do not discount the importance of face punching. It's a crucial aspect to any villain.

 

[Jumplion]

It's not like BioWare had to completely scrap the idea like they did, they could have easily done some improvements (like make the terrain less bumpy and steep, or make the Mako have boosters worth a fuck).

What? All the changes that BioWare did to Mass Effect 2 were scrapping mechanics from the first game. Sure, it was better than the clunky inventory and the pointless skill trees but they didn't actually make an effort to actually improve them.

Essentially, they ignored the problems and completely removed it all together without thinking of improving them. Sounds about right.

Oh god, I totally misread that like "It's not like BioWare to completely scrap the idea like they did". My bad there.

I honestly find it funny how a single word can drastically alter the intent of a sentence

 

[AlternatePFG]

To be fair, you do eventually learn about the Collectors liquefying people and turning them into a DNA smoothie.

Yeah, but the payoff for that was ridiculously stupid.

 

[BlindChance]

You know when they did this with the Empire Strikes back, it was considered brilliant. But when people do that today it's considered bad writing. *shakes head*

It's the middle act of a story. It has the disadvantage of having no beggining and no end, and considering those set-backs I thought it did a good job. Granted I haven't played DA2 (although I've been told by people the hate on it is undeserved), but ME2 worked. No villians? It's beaten into your head right off the bat that the Reaper's are behind the collectors. How is that having no villians?

Empire Strikes Back has a clear villain: Darth Vader. Same as in the first film.

ME2 doesn't. It has 'the Collectors' who are a shadowy group; not a villain. It tried, loosely, to create one in the Collector General (who is an interesting idea, yes) but he's still a blank vessel. He has no personality, no sense of desire or goal. You're just told "They want to collect humans" and that's it. Yes, I know I know, human Reaper, but even so.

Saren was fascinating. A bubbling cauldron of rage at humans, creeping loss of sanity to the Reapers, and eerie devotion. Loghain, similar; a mass of ancient anger at the Orlesians, blind-siding his better judgement and leading him to extreme act after extreme act.

And, and once again I cannot stress this enough, they have faces you can punch.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Mass Effect 2 seems like a huge setup for the Illusive Man being a "man behind the curtain" villain for ME3, so I can deal with the lack of a big baddie in what I call the "Empire Strikes Back" area.

 

[Canadish]

You know when they did this with the Empire Strikes back, it was considered brilliant. But when people do that today it's considered bad writing. *shakes head*

It's the middle act of a story. It has the disadvantage of having no beggining and no end, and considering those set-backs I thought it did a good job. Granted I haven't played DA2 (although I've been told by people the hate on it is undeserved), but ME2 worked. No villians? It's beaten into your head right off the bat that the Reaper's are behind the collectors. How is that having no villians?

There is no central figure. No rival, in a sense.
An enemy that is on the same footing as you, and someone with understandable motives.

Saren and Loghain were this, while Sovereign and the Archdemon were the big monsters, and the true evil.
You mentioned Star Wars and the Empire Strikes Back.
Darth Vader filled this role in that movie. The Empire/Emperor filled the role of the monster/true evil.
Sure, the Reapers as a whole are the villains. But there is no central avatar among them. Harbinger is the closest to this we have, but I think he failed at generating any fear/tension.

Dragon Age 2 doesn't really need a villain. It COULD have worked without one.
But it doesn't work. However, that is not the problem with the game.
It's about 1001 other things.
There was clearly some bold ideas behind Dragon Age 2 that got strangled by a mere 1 year of development time, and the lazy programmers.
I know it seems like people bash the game because its the hip thing to do, but it really was awful.
I've seen mods with better presentation and bug checks.

edit: It's probably also worth noting that Dragon Age 2 is not the middle child of a trilogy.
Its just a normal sequel. It needed to stand up on its own.
Bioware have said that the Dragon Age games are not following the same formula as Mass Effect.

 

[Not-here-anymore]

DA2 really does the same thing, focusing on main characters instead of on villains, but in this case it was really to its detriment story wise because it kind of had no plot.

I'm actually really enjoying DA2 as a result of this. It's not a story about events, it's a story about characters and places. As such, you don't get into it until you get to know said characters a little, but it really lends itself to role-playing, and becomes incredibly engaging if you do. I've never had as much of a feel for a fictional place as I have for Kirkwall.
Besides, how many people in life actually have a specific quest? Most people just sort of make it up as they go along.

Also, the lack of time pressure/big baddy means doing sidequests doesn't seem silly on the part of the character - they're a way to pass the time, earn some money, and spread your influence.

Though the repetitive dungeons are still crazy annoying.

Dunno, maybe I'm just overly charitable when it comes to defending games I enjoy...

 

[Joshimodo]

I think the problem with the Collectors was that they were meant to be this pervasive, unknown force, yet suddenly everyone had heard of them. With Saren, you had this mano-a-mano thing, but it was backed by the Geth, who hadn't been seen beyond the veil. People knew who they were, but were in disbelief. Then the Reapers took it to the next level - Nobody knew anything.


The only time the Collectors really seemed eerie and actually engaging was when you're wandering around the totally empty settlement. No enemies, no signs of fights, no humans. Just, nothing. Other than that, they just seemed like "generic placeholder enemy".

To be fair, you do eventually learn about the Collectors liquefying people and turning them into a DNA smoothie.

Yes, but it's left entirely unexplained and feels tacked-on. Plus, as others have said, the Collectors don't feel alien enough to be creepy or intriguing, nor do they have a central figure which acts as a rival (like Saren and the Geth).


Also, fuck you Thermidor!

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

Well, at least your criticism was somewhat novel. And I agree to a large degree.

The thread title, however, is pretty terrible. Either you seriously lack foresight or are trying to bait people into starting another stupid argument over these games.

Speaking of said arguments, I am so incredibly tired of people claiming that ME2 and DA2 are "too linear" as compared to the first games. ME2 gives you more choices about the order in which you want to do things. The first game has the illusion of being more free-form because it had the (terrible) vehicle sections and required a lot more backtracking. Perhaps the illusion worked, but it certainly wasn't because of some stunning, innovative system making the game less linear. Having not played DA2 yet, I can't comment on it, but I can say that DA:O followed the same pattern as ME1: a handful of choices about what order you do things in (though I'll give them that they at least had the order matter a little bit occaisionally) and a fuckton of backtracking.

TL;DR: Hindsight is making you confuse backtracking and unordered level selection with actual free-form gameplay.

Edit: Also, I think most of the loss of epic-ness was mostly just the setting becoming too familiar. ME1 gave us information about virtually every part of the setting. Note that ME2 became much more epic any time it involved something you didn't know about or a set piece that didn't look just like something from ME1 (Lair of the Shadow Broker being probably the best example on both counts).

Edit edit: OH GOOD ANOTHER THREAD WHERE I CAN TALK ABOUT HOW I FEEL CHEATED BY DLC AND HOW ALL THE PC DEVELOPERS HAVE JUST SOLD OUT TO THE CONSOLES.