Bioware let's have a talk about your conversation system.

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Belgian_Waffles

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There's been a lot of talk (both civil and not so civil) about the way Bioware has been handling their fully voiced games.
Some people like the cinematic feel of two or more voices going back and forth, while many prefer the freedom of several answers instead of three.
I've been sitting on this topic for some time now, for a while I've been neutral on the subject but after finally finishing my Dragon Age: Origins marathon I've finally come up with my own opinion.

After much consideration, I do believe that the non-voiced text responses are superior... for Dragon Age.
You see that's not a cop-out answer, it's really true; let me enlighten you.
When Bioware came across the dialogue wheel that they now slap onto everything nowadays willy nilly it was a smash, everyone was hailing Bioware as the second coming of storytelling everyone loved putting in what they wanted to say and have Sheppard repeat it with his/her own brand of speaking. Here's the problem though you're not playing yourself, you're playing Sheppard.
Let's jump to Dragon Age: Origins for a second.
In DA:O I wasn't anybody, I was just myself.
It was me who joked with Allistar, it was me who woo'd Leliana, it was me who sat and drank with Oghren; reminiscing about the old days in Orzimmar, well you get the idea.
I don't get this feeling in Mass Effect, sure I still get to control the conversation, but it isn't me, it's Sheppard, I'm just a little man standing in Sheppard's brain telling him/her what would be appropriate to say after he handed me three things he think might be worth saying for giggles, like I was some miniature wingman.
This is not totally the fault of the dialogue wheel, it falls more on the fault of being a fully-voiced game.
See RPG's haven't really recovered from voice actors, way back when during the early days of The Elder Scrolls series you could ask any NPC where anything was and he/she would point you where you needed to go.
In today's game world that would be completely unreasonable for someone to ask of a game company, hell some NPCs won't even engage you in a real conversation they'll just give you some random line or two they'll spout over and over again until you're bored or you finally get shipped off to the funny farm.

We can not move forward until we repair the damages we've taken from sailing through the rocks so to speak.
In DA:O at any time you can have anything from 4-8 things to talk about when conversing with an NPC, in Mass Effect you usually have three things to move the conversation occasionally getting a few more if you wanted to get some extra options to get a short version of events or motivations of thing you can read from the codex.
Now this system works for Mass Effect because as my fellow Bioware enthusiasts know, Mass Effect is much more black and white than DA:O which is a game that deals in extreme gray situations and morals.
The differences go deeper the dialogue wheel is much more suited for spectators along with the player as opposed to a text based response which is much harder to involve an audience.

Why do you think that Star Wars: The Old Republic, Bioware's upcoming MMORPG, is fully voiced? Eight classes each with two voices (one male, one female) for a a game with every class story the size of Knight's Of The Old Republic. This is because the game would sell poorly if four people in a group were reading each other's responses, my theory is supported on the fact that a huge majority of this game relies on you and your friends laughing it up to the responses that you and your friends fling around going back and forth in a conversation with one poor NPC in the middle of it.

I'm getting a bit off topic here, I've played the Dragon Age II demo five separate times, Bioware seems to have the right idea with the direction they've taken with this wheel, it's personality based instead of moral based, which is an interesting twist but anyone who's extensively played DA:O knows that there are always more than two ways to solve a problem and none of them are completely good or evil, save a few rare examples.
Contrast this with Mass Effect where you hold up for "Have Sheppard give everyone a hug." with holding down to get "RAWR SHEPPARD SMASH!"

Bioware I have one last thing I need you to hear. For the love Christ stop having Sheppard/Hawke answering on their own!
You remember the first time Sheppard spoke without a prompt from you? Yeah, I still get pissed every time that happens.

TL;DR: Hey look a tree.
 

linkvegeta

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I think its fine, just I would like when you select an answer that your character say what you selected instead of a pile of other words.
 

Kortney

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I prefer a fully voiced dialogue wheel over any other option. I assume most of the market prefers that too. You can't really blame them for making it the norm.

Why do I prefer it? Because I think it's the only way our games will improve. Yes, at this current time having a fully voiced dialogue wheel is a trade off for less responses. This won't be true in five years time. Eventually we will see a dialogue system like DA:O that is fully voiced and it is a win win for everyone.

P.S Nice tree.
 

AlternatePFG

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Jan 22, 2010
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Yeah I agree with you, I felt like the wheel is unessecary for Dragon Age. I don't really like how the demo gave you only three options (sometimes an investigate option), which kind of limits how the conversation would play out.

I personally did not mind the unvoiced main character.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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eh I actually like both, alot, and as long as they keep doing both (depending on the game) then i'll keep on digging it, granted for dragon age 2 with the specific storyline they had setup i think it was a bit more okay for the voice acting, but i am very glad stuff wasn't voiced in DAO, that would have taken away from the experience of it being... you.
 

The Madman

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There are two things which annoy me about how Bioware does dialogue in their games.

A: The 'dialogue wheel', which gives only a hint at what you might be saying, is simply not enough information to try and genuinely play a role. I recall one bit in Mass Effect where I accidentally ended up in an awkward sex cutscene because of the fiddly, non-instructive dialogue options. Had I know that's what would end up happening I wouldn't have picked that option, but seeing as I had to essentially 'guess' my own characters replies... Gah! Stupid as hell is what it is. If you *must* do the whole 'wheel' idea, at least copy Obsidian and base the dialogue after specific emotional responces. Angry, Violent, Sad, Sympathetic, etc. Then at least I have some tiny clue what I'm getting into rather than just having to guess based on a tiny few words and the positioning of the damned circle, which brings me to B...

B: Quit it with the damned Good - Neutral - Evil reply system. It's stupid as hell and doesn't add any depth of moral conflict to the game but rather takes it away. Rather than encouraging the player to respond as they might were it actually them being asked a question or, alternatively, trying to actively roleplay in the roleplaying game, it instead encourages canned replies based purely on the alignment rather than the merits of the words themselves. Basically it's stupid and has to go.

Fine with voice work however. If I had any complaints in that department it's only that developers could write more dialogue and be more clever about it too without also having to worry about casting and a bajillion gigs of sound to put into a game. Baldur's Gate struck a nice balance by having important conversations or snippets thereof voiced, but leaving idle chatter and the like unvoiced. That way you get a nice vibe for the character while still allowing the developers to go wild with their writing.
 

gritch

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Feb 21, 2011
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I am sad to see all the dialog options gone for Dragon Age 2 but at the same time I understand why it was necessary. A silent hero in a world full of voiced NPCs has the tendency to alienate that hero. Voicing the main character, while limiting the amount of dialog options, helps the character feel more like a part of the story. Personally I would prefer to have a silent hero with more options but a voiced one definitely has its merits.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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Kortney said:
This won't be true in five years time. Eventually we will see a dialogue system like DA:O that is fully voiced and it is a win win for everyone.
Which is what The Witcher did way back in 2007. And that game kicked ass.

OT: I'm not too fond of the dialog wheel either. I like knowing exactly what my character is going to say. With Mass Effect, and now Dragon Age, I have to play "guess what he's going to say", and quite a few times the actual dialog didn't match up too well with what the summaries were.

The wheel also kills role-playing. Mass Effect is not a role-playing game. You are Shepard, you play Shepard, and you choose responses he would say, not you. And now DA2 seems to be doing that. People seem to confuse role-playing with stat-building. This is wrong. Role-playing is creating a character, and, well role-playing him/her.

In Mass Effect, you are Shepard. No matter what. In DA2, you are Hawke, no matter what. And you cannot break out of these character molds and shape your own. Your set with what Bioware gives you. And if you try to divert from that, you get railroaded back into being Shepard/Hawke.

Hopefully DA2 offers more role-playing then Mass Effect, but with the wheel I doubt it will be the case.
 

IBlackKiteI

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I honestly don't understand how people can get that into their characters in RPG's, not that theres anything up with that, I do just find it a little strange.
In RPG's I always feel I'm playing a role, not my role, so I don't care all that much for convo systems so long as they are done well...which I don't think they are, considering they try to constantly cram them with morality and such.

If I do get immersed in games its always something like playing an action heavy shooter with the sound turned up, or watching a particularly sad death scene or something.
The way I see it, Commander Shepard is Commander Shepard, Commander Shepard is not me.
 

RatRace123

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Dec 1, 2009
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I prefer the wheel and the more cinematic feeling that comes from a fully voiced character.

I think guiding the feeling of what the character's saying rather than the character's actual words helps me get into the character's head more. It feels like I'm trying to understand the character's reasons for what they said and what they did. Like I'm getting to know the character, rather than the character becoming another version of me.

There's a lot of redundancy in that paragraph.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well enough, but I had a similar answer to this question in another thread. I explained it better there I think.

Main point: I Liek Weel.
 

Canadish

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I was always a casual gamer growing up, so I never played the old classics like BG2 or the old Fallouts.
My first real in depth RPG for me was Mass Effect, which I got on the recommendation from a friend. I loved the Wheel. The Wheel was my friend. I had more choice in a game then I ever thought possible. This made the cinematic ending all the more powerful.

Then, not long before Mass Effect 2 was out, me and my friends were talking, and someone mentioned this "Dragon Age" game. "Dragon age? Whats that?" I said with doe eyed innocence. He described it to me as Lord of the Rings meets Mass Effect. I bought the game that day, having never seen one trailer or comment about it before.
80 hours later, I was enlightened.

I loved, still love Mass Effect, but Dragon Age was just so much more. It introduced me to what true Old School RPGs are. The wide choice for conversation options, the Grey Vs Grey morality, the razor sharp humor. The game never felt like it was trying to badass, those moments were spontaneous and personal to me. Talking about our different experiences with my friends made for some awesome conversations, due to how different everything went for each of us.
Dragon Age became a bit of a Darling for me. 2nd favorite game of all time. (SOTC first)

So, seeing the direction Bioware took with Mass Effect 2 was a little sad. But hey, they'll give us all the complex features back right? This is just to draw in casuals who may not have had a friend to recommend them into the genre, fair enough!
And then the TRUCKLOAD of disappointments rolled in for Dragon Age 2. I love Mass Effect and the Dialogue Wheel. I really do. But I loved Dragon Age for what it was more. I am truly fearful for Dragon Age 2. It no longer looks like the sequel to the game I was enraptured with, just a medieval "Me too!" based off Mass Effect.
And as the OP explained in his post, the heart of the problems are with a voiced protagonist and the Wheel.
 

DaJoW

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Belgian_Waffles said:
(Side note: did you guys notice that Wynne is voice by god damned Susan Boyle?)
Wiki says Wynne is voiced by Susan Boyd Joyce, and doesn't sound anything like Susan Boyle, so I think you've misread.

I see where you're coming from and much of the time I can agree with it, but far too often I choose a dialogue option I think will get a certain response only to get a completely different one. With fully voiced dialogue I can at least hear what went wrong :p

Nothing like my problems playing a Malkavian in Vampire: The Masquerade, but still, it gets annoying.
 

kampori

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Canadish said:
.....

I loved, still love Mass Effect, but Dragon Age was just so much more.The game never felt like it was trying to badass, those moments were spontaneous and personal to me. Talking about our different experiences with my friends made for some awesome conversations, due to how different everything went for each of us.
Well that's the difference between Mass Effect and Dragon Age, and that's the thing that annoys me most about why people say Mass Effect isn't a 'true' RPG.

BECAUSE IT ISN'T. It's a story/character-based action, with RPG -IN- it. The ENTIIIIIRE point of Mass Effect is the feeling on urgency & energy. The galaxy is on the verge of annihilation, and the more you find out, the faster the story & action becomes. Think about in on a 'ROLE PLAYING' level. Would you in this situation have time to piss around, sit around a camp fire and drink ale with some dwarf, and chit chat about our daily lives? Of course not. The furthest you can chit chat is to have a quicky with one of the hot crew-members. (apologies for the crudeness, but it felt appropriate)

Mass Effect is more about cinematography, the EPIC and AMAZINGLY good story-writing and character building. The emotion, the suspense, drama, romance in a race for survival. That's what makes peoples' heart pound during the climactic ending battle.

Dragon Age doesn't have this. The end battle didn't feel dramatic, real or thrilling to be honest. The lack of voice to me = lack of emotion, and therefore lack of care. I didn't give a rat's ass about my character in DA, because he couldn't speak. Same as Fallout, same as Oblivion. I couldn't connect to my character in the slightest, 'lots of dialogue options or not'.
But that's because Dragon Age is based more on deep yet meaningless (under circumstantial events) conversation, deep 'real' life moments. As a trade-off it loses its cinematography and fun. (again, to ME). Vice versa, Mass Effect does the opposite.

Most people nowadays prefer cinematography (the 'Wheel') to Dragon Age/RPG-multiple-option dialogue. That's why games -do- it.
As the person a few above me said, one day very soon they will be able to merge these together, and create a 'perfect' RPG/dramatic game.
 

Mallefunction

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Feb 17, 2011
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I agree with an above poster. Enough with the "good, evil, and neutral" shit. I don't want to be a flower child, Hitler, or a blank slate, k thx...
 

Irony's Acolyte

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- That was a pretty well thought out post there. You've given me a lot to think about
- You've got some points...
- Fuck you man! I like my voice-acted lines!
 

Canadish

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Magenera said:
I don't really see the difference between ME dialog wheel, and DA:O wall of text. I mean people tells me I am playing Shepard but I role play him/her well. The same with DA:O I role play my warden. Only difference between the two is that I don't have to put out a voice for ME in my head. Though on the other hand I spend more time meta-gaming than anything else, though that is what I spend most of my time role-playing any way.

Irony fact about DA:O, people wanted the wheel when they first heard about DA:O, now that they got it, now people hates it. DA3, introduce the old system, people wants the wheel to stay, also they want Hawke to stay also. That right people wanted the warden to be in DA2, like Shepard in ME series. Can't please people these days.
Might be worth remembering that "People" are not all a single hivemind entity. If Bioware kept the old system, your right, you would see people complaining. But those would be the ones that are currently pleased with changes that Bioware has made.
I know its easy to lump everyone together into one boat when on the internet but its not how things are.
For example, If they decided to keep the Warden the main character, I would have been happy. However, the OP who is also in the "Concerned" camp about DA2 might of thought that it was a bit samey, even if he shares the same opinion as me about the new dialogue.

I felt I needed to comment on this. I see alot of posters making use of this "Cant please anyone!" argument to try and invalidate legitimate criticisms.
 

Drake_Dercon

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Sep 13, 2010
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Indecision. On on hand, I read a lot, so I imagine the voice. It really helps my immersion when I only hear my character speak once. That said, a non-mental voice does give your character some... character. I think it's appropriate playing as Hawke, but the voicelessness suited the more traditional nature of DA:O.
 

Light 086

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Feb 10, 2011
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That's what kinda sucks about ME 1&2, your character acts between 2 extremes: a Saint and an Ass. I also hate how when you selected an option, your character won't say what the text wrote down. That sucks because in most cases I found the text was more entertaining than what shepard says. Don't read this wrong though I love the games.

So I guess I agree with Waffles, I prefer the sarcasm, seriousness, and jokes that your character can have in DA:O. Even though Oblivion and Fallout have the text options and they kinda sucked, the text kinda puts a bit of 'you' into your character if done right.