Bioware let's have a talk about your conversation system.

[kurupt87]

(Side note: did you guys notice that Wynne is voice by god damned Susan Boyle?)

Heh, no it wasn't. It was voiced by Susan Boyd Joyce, unfortunately not Susan Boyle; as epic as that would have been.

Here's the problem though you're not playing yourself, you're playing Sheppard.
Let's jump to Dragon Age: Origins for a second.
In DA:O I wasn't anybody, I was just myself.

And that's where your argument falls down; in DA2 you are playing Hawke, not a faceless and nameless hero.

The only real trouble, for me, with the wheel is that you can't see the entire line of dialogue; that can break immersion. The little hint doesn't give a decent enough precursor of what the line is or, as happened to me several times in ME2, that line turns out to be opposite or radically different in tone to what you interpreted the hint to mean.

Edit: As the poster above also points out, that misinterpretation of tone within a written line of dialogue can still happen even if you know exactly what is being said. You read something and assume it's sarcastic and you're responded to as if it were sincere, the opposite also occurs. However, we play the story we are given, anything else is the realm of mods. Game mechanics have to improve to the point that there are no misunderstandings between game and player, not make them more rife.

Final point, a somewhat blunt but truthful quote from David Gaidar on BSN, thread link here [http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6192420];

And, yes, I know you like to imagine your own delivery, and resign any failure of the world to heed that as their misunderstanding, as if they are incapable of understanding communication. So, yes, we no longer allow you to play a character with Asperger's.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

i'm firmly in favor of much greater variety of dialogue options, even (or maybe especially) if it means they remain unvoiced. but then, i was raised on old school isometric WRPGs like Fallout 1&2 and Baldur's Gate. it wasn't unusual to have 6-8 dialogue options. and it. was. awesome.

 

[Cheesepower5]

We have been playing RPG's with pre-made characters since the NES. Opinions will vary but most people understand that you don't need a character creator to be an RPG. In ME you are Shepard, you are stepping into his shoes. You are playing a role and making decisions that affect the game.

It always seemed to me like I was just hijacking Shepherd's mind instead of being my own character whenever I played Mass Effect, but that's just me.

Like the little angel and devil standing on each shoulder...LOL

This needs to be a Bioware RPG RIGHT NOW.

The character you play is preset like Hawke and Shepard, but instead of a dialogue wheel you can choose to do what the angel wants, what the character wants or what the devil wants. You could be some Schizophrenic guy in a modern setting, or something to that effect.

 

[DVS Storm]

In Dragon Age 2 demo, the game gave the gamer a hint about what they were going to say in the middle of the dialoque wheel(as in colors and some symbols). And the neutral option seems to have changed to sarcasm/joke option at least in some points of the game.

(And I personally could'nt find the most fitting(or what I would've said) thing to say in the old system either)

I think that dialoque wheel is superior to the old system. The fact that you chacracter has a voice too is awesome. But this, of course, is a personal preference.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

This won't be true in five years time. Eventually we will see a dialogue system like DA:O that is fully voiced and it is a win win for everyone.

Which is what The Witcher did way back in 2007. And that game kicked ass.

OT: I'm not too fond of the dialog wheel either. I like knowing exactly what my character is going to say. With Mass Effect, and now Dragon Age, I have to play "guess what he's going to say", and quite a few times the actual dialog didn't match up too well with what the summaries were.

The wheel also kills role-playing. Mass Effect is not a role-playing game. You are Shepard, you play Shepard, and you choose responses he would say, not you. And now DA2 seems to be doing that. People seem to confuse role-playing with stat-building. This is wrong. Role-playing is creating a character, and, well role-playing him/her.

In Mass Effect, you are Shepard. No matter what. In DA2, you are Hawke, no matter what. And you cannot break out of these character molds and shape your own. Your set with what Bioware gives you. And if you try to divert from that, you get railroaded back into being Shepard/Hawke.

Hopefully DA2 offers more role-playing then Mass Effect, but with the wheel I doubt it will be the case.

This. Having to guess what your character will say is infuriating. In DA2, Bioware is adding context to the choices, but it still isn't the same. And yes, The Witcher was ahead of its time.

 

[BeeRye]

True, but in Origins it was my Warden. I controlled who he was, what he said, and his personality. I was able to use my imagination to make the character my own.

In DA2, I can't do that. Its Hawke, and just Hawke. He already has a voice, a personality, everything. Its all done for you, the only way you can make him your own is by just changing his face and by controlling the tone of his answers.

I don't know what to make of your stance though. You control your Warden's personality by selecting from predefined answers. They're just not voiced. The moment in the game where I want to do something and the game does not allow me (Say killing Alistair, Anora and Loghain in the Landsmeet and declaring yourself king) he ceases to be my warden, and instead becomes a version of my warden imposed on me by the developer. I don't think this is an absolute gamebreaker and it doesn't bother me, but I see absolutely no difference between Origins and DA2. Your choices are still restricted, they're just not voiced. If DA2 showed you the exact sentence Hawke would utter before you chose it, it would be identical to Origins in that respect.

And it isn't any more ambiguous either. Its only that way because we don't know quite what he did TO become the champion, while you DO KNOW what the Warden did to become the "Hero of Fereldan". Now if you ask me, there is 0 difference there.

How is that less ambiguous than Origins? "What you did to become the Champion" is the actual game itself. The result of what you did is not the game. Killing the Archdemon is what you do in Origins, and it was obvious from the very start. What do you do in DA2? I don't know for sure. Before it was released, Origins basically told you both what you will be doing in the game and what its result will be (Kill Archdemon-stop blight). DA2 basically tells you what you the result of what you do will be (become the Champion) without telling you exactly what you will do. I certainly find that more ambiguous than Origins.

But Origins did give you more choice. Its going to be obvious that Hawke survives throughout the whole game. At least in Origins you could control if your character died or not, or if Morrigan has the super-baby, and your character will be doing afterwords.

Maybe the dwarf is telling the story after Hawke is dead. There was nothing that suggested to me he had to be alive at the time the story is being recounted, although I do find it likely. As for the Morrigan super baby thing, yes the game gave you a choice. What makes you think that DA2 will not give you such choices? Just because Hawke has a voice you no longer are confronted by choices? Who says there will be no moment towards the end of the game where you will be given the option to sacrafice yourself? Who says Anders/Vengence will not go bat-shit crazy and you have the choice to kill him or save him? Giving you choices is what Dragon Age did. It's absurd to think that the sequel won't do the same. In fact, Bioware seem very pleased with themselves that they have made choices you make in the early game show their consequences later on.

 

[Irridium]

True, but in Origins it was my Warden. I controlled who he was, what he said, and his personality. I was able to use my imagination to make the character my own.

In DA2, I can't do that. Its Hawke, and just Hawke. He already has a voice, a personality, everything. Its all done for you, the only way you can make him your own is by just changing his face and by controlling the tone of his answers.

I don't know what to make of your stance though. You control your Warden's personality by selecting from predefined answers. They're just not voiced. The moment in the game where I want to do something and the game does not allow me (Say killing Alistair, Anora and Loghain in the Landsmeet and declaring yourself king) he ceases to be my warden, and instead becomes a version of my warden imposed on me by the developer. I don't think this is an absolute gamebreaker and it doesn't bother me, but I see absolutely no difference between Origins and DA2. Your choices are still restricted, they're just not voiced. If DA2 showed you the exact sentence Hawke would utter before you chose it, it would be identical to Origins in that respect.

For me, its the fact that I knew exactly what my Warden would say in origins is what I liked most. I like knowing what my character is going to say. With DA2, and Mass Effect, I have to guess at what he's going to say. Multiple times I've had Shepard say something that was not related to the little summary. Mainly when I try saying that he's not working for Cerberus(he then says that he is working for Cerberus). This didn't happen much, but it happened enough for it to really get annoying. There's also the issue of not knowing the tone of what you'll say. Femshep's dialog with Jacob is a prime example of this(she'll start flirting with Jacob out of the blue). Granted this is minimized in DA2 now that we can see the tone of the words, but there's still the issue of not knowing what he'll really say.

In short, I liked Origin's dialog system better because I can pick exactly what my character was going to say, rather then pick a summary and hope the actual dialog matches.

 

[Aiden_the-Joker1]

Yes thank you. You have summed up my opinions exactly. I really do not know what to say now because I agree with every point 100%. i guess I could go off on an evil rant about SCIENCE if anyone wants to hear that.

 

[BeeRye]

For me, its the fact that I knew exactly what my Warden would say in origins is what I liked most. I like knowing what my character is going to say. With DA2, and Mass Effect, I have to guess at what he's going to say. Multiple times I've had Shepard say something that was not related to the little summary. Mainly when I try saying that he's not working for Cerberus(he then says that he is working for Cerberus). This didn't happen much, but it happened enough for it to really get annoying. There's also the issue of not knowing the tone of what you'll say. Femshep's dialog with Jacob is a prime example of this(she'll start flirting with Jacob out of the blue). Granted this is minimized in DA2 now that we can see the tone of the words, but there's still the issue of not knowing what he'll really say.

In short, I liked Origin's dialog system better because I can pick exactly what my character was going to say, rather then pick a summary and hope the actual dialog matches.

I can fully agree that I would prefer to know exactly what my character is going to say and in what tone. I don't like having to guess at it and yes, ME2 was quite annoying as far as this was concerned. I like to here it voiced after I've chosen it too though. Silent protagonists just don't work for me in Origins. You're supposed to be having conversations with you companions, but the blank silence just makes it incredibly one-way traffic. But yes, the ideal compromise for me would be a fully voiced character where you could read the exact sentence and were told the intended tone.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I prefer the wheel, cuz when i've got 7+ options (as was the case in DA:O) I'll always go for the sarcastic/witty response or the "let's be nice to everyone" response.

And i like knowing when the convo will progress. The "investigate" section on the wheel does this nicely so i can click everything there then choose my sarastic response to progress.

With DA:O I have no idea if i'll progress if i ask this or if i'll loop round for another question. This always leads me to reload my last save if i really wanted to ask something but the game as progressed me past it.

 

[Wayneguard]

Mass Effect's conversation system is one of my favorite aspects of that series. I wish more games would implement it.

 

[Belgian_Waffles]

I want to illustrate a few points, however I don't know how to multi-quote so bear with me.

1. I do like the dialogue wheel, it doesn't work however for a game like Dragon Age which deals with extreme grey situations
2. Shepard is normally spelled with one "P" however Bioware felt like being a black sheep and spells it with two, go figure.
3. Susan Boyle, Susan Boyd. I fucked that one up sorry.
4. I love Bioware, I'm no means a hater, every single one of there games is high up on my top 50 games. Dragon Age: Origins is second only to Ocarina of Time.

 

[Dogstile]

B: Quit it with the damned Good - Neutral - Evil reply system. It's stupid as hell and doesn't add any depth of moral conflict to the game but rather takes it away. Rather than encouraging the player to respond as they might were it actually them being asked a question or, alternatively, trying to actively roleplay in the roleplaying game, it instead encourages canned replies based purely on the alignment rather than the merits of the words themselves. Basically it's stupid and has to go.

My only issue with that is with the current problem of only seeing a bit of dialogue, clearly saying which is which to the player is the only way we can make sure we know what we're doing without the game having to use massive cliche's. I'm talking about a "fuck you, punk!" every time you want to do something evil.

 

[Zaik]

I think its fine, just I would like when you select an answer that your character say what you selected instead of a pile of other words.

Yeah, that sometimes bothers me. I mean, for example, in Mass Effect 1, when you're riding the elevator up after you use the mining laser to rescue Liara and a Krogan pops out, the renegade option says "Kill this bastard." That's awesome. So you select it, and Shepard says "We don't have time to deal with this idiot, charge!" That sucks. A lot.

You can't really have all of Shepard's dialogue be 1-3 word responses(about all you can fit in the dialogue wheel without looking silly), but sometimes that short bit is just better.

 

[Ace of Spades]

I fucking hate the text responses. My character always has the same stony-faced expression and never opens his mouth. I much prefer the system in Mass Effect. Having a character with no spoken dialogue doesn't work for a game that isn't viewed from first-person.