Bioware Sucks at Story telling

[Rooster Cogburn]

Look, you don't need to be a hero destined to save the universe from the beginning in RPGs. In KOTOR you're just a questionably talented Jedi trainee a long time before you're a superhero and ditto Neverwinter Nights.

BG2 aside, I don't think one can play NVN and say Bioware can't tell a story.

I would add you don't need 'save the world' as your motivation at all. In fact, it lends itself to boring and lazy writing. There is little to examine, expand, or explain when the goal is to save the world from something capable of destroying it. If the goal is, say, to prevent a war or help someone reach a destination, the audience has a million questions. That's a million opportunities for writers to display their creativity.

Both Morrowind and Dragon Age: Origins had 'save the world' plots. The writers of Morrowind realized they needed to expand on the threat, make it personal to the player, and make it relevant to the world of the game. That's how you do it. But Bioware fell into the trap. Dragons kill shit and that's pretty much it. I honestly don't think it occurred to them to do more.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

And here is my opinion:

I don't give a shit.

Why was this thread created other than saying, "I hate X and so should you!"?

Because sharing our opinions with others, hearing alternate views, and collaborating toward better understanding is fun, edifying, and interesting, and everyone is better for the exchange.

 

[A_Broconut_Crab]

Bioware does a good job with characters, dialogue and emotional moments. Their plots could use some work.

This guy is the guy.

 

[Scow2]

Look, you don't need to be a hero destined to save the universe from the beginning in RPGs. In KOTOR you're just a questionably talented Jedi trainee a long time before you're a superhero and ditto Neverwinter Nights.

BG2 aside, I don't think one can play NVN and say Bioware can't tell a story.

I would add you don't need 'save the world' as your motivation at all. In fact, it lends itself to boring and lazy writing. There is little to examine, expand, or explain when the goal is to save the world from something capable of destroying it. If the goal is, say, to prevent a war or help someone reach a destination, the audience has a million questions. That's a million opportunities for writers to display their creativity.

Both Morrowind and Dragon Age: Origins had 'save the world' plots. The writers of Morrowind realized they needed to expand on the threat, make it personal to the player, and make it relevant to the world of the game. That's how you do it. But Bioware fell into the trap. Dragons kill shit and that's pretty much it. I honestly don't think it occurred to them to do more.[/quote]Morrowind had a main plot? What?! I couldn't find it... A shirtless imperial I was apparently supposed to report to told me to buzz off and come back when I was more experienced, and two Guilds, a Great House, and an impressive Khajiit Collection over in a Stronghold later I couldn't be bothered to return to that dude.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Pretty much KOTOR was a sign that they went cheap on 3D level layouts and its only gotten worse.

 

[Neofishie]

To me, Bioware is a chef who isn't trying to make some really crazy meal that you remember because it was full of stuff you've never seen before, like puffer fish and broccoli ice cream. Bioware's just making steak and potatoes, a good ol' favorite that makes you feel right at home

But maybe one day it's a rib-eye marinated in whisky with basil red skin mashed potatoes, and the next day it a prime-rib slow-grilled with peppercorn and baked potato loaded with cheese and bacon.

Yeah it's all similar, but each meal has a few personal touches and the execution is nigh-on flawless.

So every time I hear someone say "But they've all got the same plot" I just respond "True, but I like it, so keep it coming."

 

[TheScientificIssole]

I disagree. I love ME series's use of various themes and the imagery. I do praise them alot. I love the ME series by an ungodly amount.

 

[octafish]

Yea, when it comes to 'story' elements and choices and consequences, Black Isle/Obsidian/Trokia have them beat pretty handily.

Bioware's best games by far was the BG series though, but not necessarily because of great story elements.

The interesting thing about Baldur's Gate, but especially BG2, is how critical reaction and fan reaction completely went apeshit for the storyline, writing, and other "emotional engagements" while ignoring a lot of the more "gamey" aspects, which is where the game really shined. It's like people played the games, enjoyed the fun interpretation of D&D, crawled around in some cool dungeons, fought some well-crafted encounters, and then when going to express their opinions they gushed praise for plot, setting, and characters that were pretty decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often. And the Bioware head honchos took this to heart, catering to those people. I mean, Neverwinter Nights didn't have time to design anything better than one of the shittiest campaigns ever, but they sure had time to write in plenty of elvish waifu shit (Linu: I'M CLUMSY AND CRY A LOT!, Aribeth: I'M A CRYPTO LIZARD!), and I even recall a lot of praise being given for this. (yea, I know the toolset and MP is where the game shined, although HotU wasn't terrible) Then with KOTOR, Bioware fully embraced their Westernized dating sim and started headlong down the road to swooping, ass pirates, slutty witches, and gay guido buttfucking. The "public" got exactly what they clamored for, and everyone else got pretty shafted.

HotU wasn't terrible? OK. No mention of Shadows of Undrentide though? SoU is to NWN as Mask of the Betrayer is to NWN2. Fan-bloody-tastic. I mean...Deakin Scalesinger, just, well...he's Deakin.

 

[gim73]

Naw man, Bioware has top notch story. Of course, in these current times of entirely voice acted games, offering the world for choice just doesn't work. While their work has certainly degraded since becoming part of EA, I still believe that they will continue to make good games in the future.

 

[ResonanceSD]

If you are only basing our opinion on their recent games, then you are operating without all the information on which to base a fair opinion.

No, hang on, people aren't obligated to take into account 20 years of history before judging a company that has definitely changed it's outlook on gaming development. Bioware LONG ago abandoned their roots and there's absolutely no similarity to the company that created BG2 to the one that made Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2.

Bioware is excellent at telling a story.

Key word "a". Their plot and characters are eerily similar to each other, but they are well written in a vacuum.

There's an infographic floating around which shows how every single Bioware plot is the exact same.


Oh wait, here it is.

http://www.cracked.com/funny-3872-bioware/


and another one

http://www.gamesradar.com/recycled-characters-you-see-in-every-bioware-game/

I've always seen Bioware as excelling at making more 'Hollywood' style adventures;

Yes, they are the Michael Bay of gaming.

 

[jackinmydaniels]

I've always considered them fairly overrated honestly, despite what my avatar might lead you to believe. Really the only thing I consider them doing rather well are characters, and even that can be pretty hit or miss with me. For instance I didn't like the vast majority of the DAO cast, save for Morrigan and maybe Zevran. Their main plots are always pretty generic, you look at the main plot of DAO and it's essentially a straight copy of Lord of the Rings. Mass Effect, though more unique in it's universe, is still essentially just the 'hero fighting against all odds that must defeat an unspeakable evil!' type thing that they always do.

And the actual 'game' part of their games really isn't all that great or unique in it's own right. When you get down to it the combat in ME 1 was absolute shit, and the combat in ME 2 and ME 3 is basically just Gears of War with worse animations. And on the topic of animation Jesus Christ are they bad at that, thank goodness they have good voice actors otherwise the terrible animations in the vast majority of their games would have destroyed my immersion.

 

[Hollock]

i tried replaying kotor a year ago and admit the game hasnt aged well for me. but that doesnt change that i played through it in one sitting because i loved it so much the first time. ME was telling a simple sci fi story,but it was very engrossing for me and beating ME1 was the most satisfyed ive ever been. they are good in my books

 

[HalfTangible]

Kotor 2 was made by Obsidian, not Bioware.

EDIT: It's no secret that Bioware's plots are (at best) formulaic. Where they really shine is character interaction and dialogue. Anyone else remember that man who wanted his wife's corpse back in ME1?

I do =( I still feel bad for not getting her for him... despite the fact that i make the same choice EVERY TIME

 

[Savo]

Can't say I agree. Bioware makes (or used to anyway) some of the best stories you can find in video-games. I am in agreement with you that Bioware reuses their plots to their detriment, but it's never bothered me much. For me, it's really comfortable. I love the "epic" heroes journey story structure that Bioware keeps telling, but I fully understand why people want something new.

People say that Bioware writing sucks compared to films or books, but I can't say I'm in agreement. I just think back on all the times I'd sit down in front of a Bioware game and get transported to another world filled with witty dialogue and quirky companions to accompany me on an epic quest to save the world. Not a whole lot of fiction has had that powerful of an effect on me, so I've gotta give Bioware props. I don't know how well they'd work outside of video-games, but they create some of the most immersive stuff around if you ask me.

That said, DA2 and ME3 both were mediocre, so I'm getting worried that Bioware has jumped the shark. Here's hoping that they come back to their former heights someday soon.

 

[Vigormortis]

Bioware does a good job with characters, dialogue and emotional moments. Their plots could use some work.

Their characters are rarely more than paper-thin templates. dialogue is rarely more than expository text blocks, and I'm sorry, but if I don't give a damn for the characters or the dialogue, it's hard to give a damn about the emotional moments. The games are not entirely devoid of these elements, but praising them for rather token attempts.....

This has always been one of my biggest issues with Bioware games. (and many, many more RPGs over the years) An over-abundance of expository dialog. I.E. walls of text.

That does NOT equate to good story-telling. And, frankly, it's something that I dearly wish the gaming industry would stop doing.

Don't get me wrong. I like reading. I read rather lengthy novels on a regular basis. But, when I tell you that I've often found it a chore to read through the dialog trees in most of Bioware's games, you can get a sense of how bad it is to me.

Also, back-story and universe-lore that can be "found" through-out a game is nice and all, and I do enjoy it at times (like in Metroid Prime), but I don't really count it towards my judgement on a developers story-telling ability. If anything, those bits of "lore" are nothing more than short asides to the primary narrative. At least, when they're just log recordings or something equivalent. When back-story is intricately interwoven into the primary narrative, or subtly placed either in the environment or in character dialog, I absolutely adore it.

I wish Bioware would do that more often, instead of the standard text-tree, log-book, and lengthy spoken dialog methods.

[edit]
While it's "mostly" a concise, well-thought out thread topic (in terms of the OP), do we REALLY need another God-damned "I hate ****" thread?

I mean, it's not like we don't get one of those a few times a day...every day...without fail. But I guess the OP decided to give Blizzard, Valve, EA, Activision, Bethesda, Capcom, and Nintendo a break and shift the cross-hairs of ire to Bioware this week.

 

[pearcinator]

I could do a similar rant against Obsidian Games.

Let's just ignore the amount of bugs and glitches to their games for a start

KOTOR II over-complicated matters, a good story does not need to be complex. In fact, making a story engaging enough so that most people understand it straight away is the best way to get more people interested in it. Bioware make games with a basic main plot but players who want a deeper experience just need to go looking for it (it is there, just as sub-plots or sidequests)

I'm playing through KOTOR II and don't know WTF is going on or who the bad guys really are and I am listening to every little thing. It's too complex, sure it has depth but I don't give enough fucks to care about it. In KOTOR 1 I talked to all the characters I liked but I don't like any in KOTOR II.

Note, I haven't played any other Obsidian games (Fallout doesn't appeal to me and Alpha Protocol sounds interesting but I have heard the glitches kill the game).

Where Bioware excels is in its characters. You say they are paper-thin, I say they are unique. Each character feels differently about everything. Some are all for you killing meatbags (HK-47 is such a great character) others think there is another way to do things. Then you have the neutral characters that do things reluctantly but they know it's necessary (Mordin for example).

I think DA:O had the best moral choices with not many black/white options (the Dalish Elf/Werewolf choice was really hard for me). Sure some Bioware games have black/white choices but that doesn't bother me much. You didn't play enough of KOTOR 1 to get the 'big reveal' (im sure you know what it is already) but I was playing a light-side character and that reveal almost made me change sides (I didn't because then my powers would use too much force energy).

To conclude: Obsidian make over-complicated games full of bugs and glitches. Bioware tell a simple story with more complex sub-plots for those invested in the story and develop great characters.

 

[Sennune]

I'll be the first to admit, I don't have a vast frame of reference for Bioware games: Baulder's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age and Mass Effect. While I greatly enjoyed Baulder's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, Bioware's recent efforts have bothered me.

I purchased the PS3 copy of DA:O. It was fun, I liked the dialogue, the story was just there so I could go around being discriminated against for being a dwarf or elf, all fun and such. I beat the game, good times were had but the dungeons were painstakingly long. Couldn't find the will to play it a second time.

Then Mass Effect 2 was announced for PS3. I was interested in seeing what it was all about from all the hype. Create character, acquire friends, plot point, acquire more friends, solve their problems, climax/cliffhangar. It was impressive. I enjoyed it and played through a few times. Then it dawned on me, in DA:O I created a character, acquired some friends, plot point, acquired more friends, solved their problems and was off to fight the dragon for the conclusion. Then everything I heard about the first Mass Effect sounded similar and so did ME3. I had the thought, "Am I really paying 60 dollars for a game that covers 1/3 of DA:O's plot?

After that, I couldn't bring myself to purchase Bioware games until I see something truly deserving. Bioware does have great qualities about it, but they could make games of much higher quality than they have been for the past several years.