Black Gods and Female Space Marines; A Sexy Study
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Okay this is ridiculous. Your making comparisons between two different things, both of which make it impossible to object against what you`ve said without getting the fanboy hammer and thereby an easy win for you. but to hell with it, here`s what i have to say.
1) female characters are represented similarly to space marines (see Sisters of Battle) and if that doesnt satisfy you than look at the Eldar. A lot of their famous leaders are badass female characters and half their unit base are female. Hopefully that satisfies the pulsating tumor that is "political correctness"
2) You simply cant just take a god from a region where its always cold and snowy (therefore the people there will have white skin for the same reason that people who live in area with climates like Africa will have darker skin). There is no racism in saying that Heimdall shouldnt be black, and that kind of logic (to me in any case) is the same as the logic used by people that claimed that RE5 was racist cause you were shooting africans who were trying to murder you and the same as the actress that accused a producer of being racist because the character was different skin color!
Thats why I have to say, please feel free to bash me with the easily acquired "fanboy" hammer because I defend a game and a dead religion.
Also as a side note I respect your right to say that so please respect my right to call you on it, but there`s nothing holding you to it so what the hell.
1) female characters are represented similarly to space marines (see Sisters of Battle) and if that doesnt satisfy you than look at the Eldar. A lot of their famous leaders are badass female characters and half their unit base are female. Hopefully that satisfies the pulsating tumor that is "political correctness"
2) You simply cant just take a god from a region where its always cold and snowy (therefore the people there will have white skin for the same reason that people who live in area with climates like Africa will have darker skin). There is no racism in saying that Heimdall shouldnt be black, and that kind of logic (to me in any case) is the same as the logic used by people that claimed that RE5 was racist cause you were shooting africans who were trying to murder you and the same as the actress that accused a producer of being racist because the character was different skin color!
Thats why I have to say, please feel free to bash me with the easily acquired "fanboy" hammer because I defend a game and a dead religion.
Also as a side note I respect your right to say that so please respect my right to call you on it, but there`s nothing holding you to it so what the hell.
The thing is, if you change the Codex Astartes then that problem suddenly ceases to exist. In-universe blockades mean nothing, and if we can't summon think of a good narrative or thematic reason to exclude women from the ranks of the elite... then there is no good reason, and it's time to bring the ladies into the Power Armour.Murlo said:
Entrenched sexism (especially that of a monotheistic religion) is never a good reason for anything, but as a storytelling device entrenched sexism can be a powerful emotive device. Defend the narrative device, not the sexism behind it.
That's why I've provided the similar issue of female space marines to act as a sounding board and grounding for the discussion of Hiemdall's pigmentation. Though the discussion has deviated somewhat, I think it's an apt juxtaposition that lets us see the process that's caused this whole stink.
The thing is that black Heimdall is explainable/possible in the Marvel Universe, due to the nature of their Ragnarok cycle and the presence of other Panthenons. I'd explain in depth if any one asks, but I'm fatigued after doing so on countless threads and forums.
When Asgard is some dimension-slipping space city and the gods are magic-using aliens, I think credulity is shot to ruin. With all of these changes, why is the skin colour of the bouncer such a huge deviation? The names, family ties and personalities of these characters have been so wildly shifted from their initial incarnations that they're only Norse Gods in name to begin with. All I'm saying is that if the fact that this man is black causes you such a horrific lack of immersion when everything else changed here doesn't... there might be more too it than an indignation over religious portrayal.Fagotto said:
Hang on. The detail that pushes this over the line is his skin tone? What about his accent? He'll have a British one, likely. Thor will be an Australian. These don't stretch it too far, but casting a perfectly able black man to play one of many loosely adapted Norse gods does? The guy has, supposedly, nine mothers! Between the original story and how wacky the marvel version of it is, I just think it's odd that the sticking point is how dark a dude is.
Say he got snowburn a lot. He's always standing near a huge icy bridge, after all.
I'm back, baby.Anarchemitis said:
The implicit insults that I'm here to 'win', would call you a fanboy to do so and that my entire argument is 'ridiculous' because you say so aside; I welcome your opinions and I hope in time you can understand what a Juxtaposition is.GreyKnight3445 said:
No, it doesn't. See, taking this approach of giving women designated areas in which they can find equal representation and barring them from others because 'they already have their reservations' is just about as textbook an example of sexism as it gets. It's not about 'Satisfying' political correctness, it's about fairness. And Sisters of Battle are a very far cry away from space marines, given their deployment styles and the fact that they lack genetic engineering.
My point is that there are good and bad reasons for opposing something, I'm not here to endorse a Black Hiemdall (although he will be rockin'), just to encourage people to understand that the problems they have with the casting are actually pretty silly. There are better reasons to oppose it, go with them instead.
You might find it interesting to note my original post includes exactly 1 count of the word 'Racism', and it was used mockingly. Most people are upset with the deviation from continuity, not the black man in question. The only problem is that, as stated, most of the ways they're saying this are silly. 'You simply can't' is pretty silly, isn't it? I mean... he simply did.
I respect you, entirely. I just wish you'd respect me enough not to assume I'm a massive prick by default and spend as much time pre-preparing against rebuttal as you do taking part in discussion. I'm here to talk, not rip into you. I just get tetchy when people speak to me like I'm already charged with douchebaggery.
I'm a fanboy, and more importantly I'm not attacking either 40K or Norse Mythology. Please don't treat me as such.
You mean Inuits and Siberians aren't dark skinned? I bet that will come as a surprise to them when they find out.GreyKnight3445 said:
Black gods : Meh.
Female Space Marines: NO. ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NO. Why? Because it's explicitly stated in canon that Astartes are exclusively male. Female Space Marines simply don't exist and, furthermore, I think it would ruin their image.
Female Marines of other sorts in other universes, e.g. Halo, are fine, just not when the universe demands that they cannot be.
Female Space Marines: NO. ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NO. Why? Because it's explicitly stated in canon that Astartes are exclusively male. Female Space Marines simply don't exist and, furthermore, I think it would ruin their image.
Female Marines of other sorts in other universes, e.g. Halo, are fine, just not when the universe demands that they cannot be.
Feel free to cite the source which states that females can't be space marines. If you think that what the cannon 'explicitly states' is sacred, might I remind you of Squats? Bits that don't fit have a habit of disappearing while others are written in at whim. The thing about fictional universes is that they're malleable.Valkyrie101 said:
I'm curious as to why you think it would 'ruin their image'. Which part of their image? The immortal badass? The commentary on hypermasculinised cultures? Details, do tell.
Fair enough, it doesn't explicitly state that they can't become Astartes. However, the total lack of them does suggest that it doesn't happen. Furthermore, from a biological point of view, men generally are stronger, tougher e.t.c. than women. Some women can be stronger than guys, but the very strongest will always be men, and only the very strongest are capable of even surviving the creation process.Labyrinth said:
As to their image: can you even imagine a female Marine? Astartes have a certain... feel to them, a sort of psychotic Spartan Knight Templar aesthetic. All of the virtues that they embody are masculine ones. There are hard women in the universe, but none of them can be as hard or as other as the Astartes, much in the same way that men wouldn't really fit the Sisters of Battle theme.
The people taken to become Sphess Muhrens are pre-pubescent children. I don't see how male/female toughness factors into it at age 8 or 9.Valkyrie101 said:
As for imagining female space marines, you missed the bit where I brought up just how fundamentally changed the physical form would be, regardless of their starting gender. Here's a quote just for you.
I'm not asking that they produce space marine models with breasts. Not only would that be an integrity flaw in the armour, but it wouldn't fit the pseudo-science.
Of course, if Games Workshop were really going to change things, they'd just cut all this shit out and do it. There's nothing to prevent female space marines popping up in relatively unknown chapters, or even new chapters. As I said fluff is malleable.
Can we not just accept that the genetic modifications applied to Spezz Muhrijns (which may have included vast amounts of testosterone, known to promote muscle growth amongst other things) has rendered them such a (homogeneous) genetic wreck that frankly it doesn't really matter what they're packing in their pants - and that in the interests of speed, efficiency, tradition, whatever, they all take the male pronoun because referring to each one as "it" simply gets too confusing.
That way it doesn't really matter if the initiate started off male or female, what they're packing in the crotch-plate area - they're an androgynous mutant mess whose sole function is to fight.
Anyone whining about canonical crap can suck my crotch-plate, Jee Dub have messed with their own continuity so many times it no longer matters, reworking and revamping bits of it with each reboot of 40k, each new army released - I'm sorry Dark Eldar? Do you want fries with your Linkin Park CD and pack of razor blades?
That way it doesn't really matter if the initiate started off male or female, what they're packing in the crotch-plate area - they're an androgynous mutant mess whose sole function is to fight.
Anyone whining about canonical crap can suck my crotch-plate, Jee Dub have messed with their own continuity so many times it no longer matters, reworking and revamping bits of it with each reboot of 40k, each new army released - I'm sorry Dark Eldar? Do you want fries with your Linkin Park CD and pack of razor blades?
Where are you getting these statistics? I'd love to know, please, because I can't imagine anything other than some study comparing male body builders to females who don't bother working out.mikozero said:
I also feel you've missed the whole bit about the people taken to become space marines being children, ie. before any sexual characteristics have started to manifest other than different genetalia. Here's a protip: enough chemicals can make any female stronger than a male.
Here's a website for you too.
http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarsgirls.html
There's the Ultrajoe we all know and love. Missed you.
As to your discussion:
I don't play Space Marines, I play Space Wolves which, in my mind, is an entirely separate play style and canon. And, interestingly, the mainstay of my army is indeed female, or was once. I'm sure you would all be horrified by the mutilations my group and I have visited upon the canon during our universe-shaping battles, but as we are all individualists to the highest degree, we have difficulty accepting that the brainwashing of the Astartes is so complete that they will toe the Imperium's metaphorical line in the sand. Our heroes, our leaders, they all (with the exception of our Guard player) make their battlefield decisions based on what will result in the desired outcome, not on some invisible ideal of racial perfection.
I see the Space Wolves as separate from the rest of the chapters. They are much more individualistic, more willing to ignore direct orders. Each of them is a warrior and a creature of honor, actual honor. I have names, personalities, histories, tics and quirks for every single member of my army, simply to reflect this. They are monastic warrior-priests, but they are also simultaneously the most and least human of the Astartes.
That's why I have Femarines. That's why I play Space Wolves. That's why I think Femarines are not necessarily a great idea elsewhere in the Astartes.
The Space Wolves break canon in so many ways already that adding women to their ranks seems trivial. Elsewhere, however, the Astartes are representative of an extreme order, and are meant to represent both the best and worst of "manliness." To introduce a woman into those ranks would seem inane, as though suddenly the purpose of the Astartes (in my mind, to serve as a warning against clinging too firmly to any one ideal, in their case, manliness) had been lost.
However, this is within my group's Universe, within another, Female Astartes might be perfectly feasible, standing shoulder to shoulder with their brothers to defend the Imperium from the Xeno.
As to Black Heimdall: Yeah, I don't care. He's gonna knock the part out of the park, we all know it, people are picking at nits. There might be a reasonable argument due to the break within Marvel's canon, but, let's be honest here, they're rebooting the franchise for the movie, it's not like the movie is going to fit in with the comics anyway. If it helps, oh ye of rabidness, think of it as an alternate universe. Like DC. But less confusing.
As to your discussion:
I don't play Space Marines, I play Space Wolves which, in my mind, is an entirely separate play style and canon. And, interestingly, the mainstay of my army is indeed female, or was once. I'm sure you would all be horrified by the mutilations my group and I have visited upon the canon during our universe-shaping battles, but as we are all individualists to the highest degree, we have difficulty accepting that the brainwashing of the Astartes is so complete that they will toe the Imperium's metaphorical line in the sand. Our heroes, our leaders, they all (with the exception of our Guard player) make their battlefield decisions based on what will result in the desired outcome, not on some invisible ideal of racial perfection.
I see the Space Wolves as separate from the rest of the chapters. They are much more individualistic, more willing to ignore direct orders. Each of them is a warrior and a creature of honor, actual honor. I have names, personalities, histories, tics and quirks for every single member of my army, simply to reflect this. They are monastic warrior-priests, but they are also simultaneously the most and least human of the Astartes.
That's why I have Femarines. That's why I play Space Wolves. That's why I think Femarines are not necessarily a great idea elsewhere in the Astartes.
The Space Wolves break canon in so many ways already that adding women to their ranks seems trivial. Elsewhere, however, the Astartes are representative of an extreme order, and are meant to represent both the best and worst of "manliness." To introduce a woman into those ranks would seem inane, as though suddenly the purpose of the Astartes (in my mind, to serve as a warning against clinging too firmly to any one ideal, in their case, manliness) had been lost.
However, this is within my group's Universe, within another, Female Astartes might be perfectly feasible, standing shoulder to shoulder with their brothers to defend the Imperium from the Xeno.
As to Black Heimdall: Yeah, I don't care. He's gonna knock the part out of the park, we all know it, people are picking at nits. There might be a reasonable argument due to the break within Marvel's canon, but, let's be honest here, they're rebooting the franchise for the movie, it's not like the movie is going to fit in with the comics anyway. If it helps, oh ye of rabidness, think of it as an alternate universe. Like DC. But less confusing.
Took a read of that website, doesnt seem too bad, except until I got to the "Something else to consider". 40K has a lack of female characters? Damn thats an ancient webpage, you want to know where the powerful female characters in 40K are? The Imperial Inquisition, the most (theoretically) powerful orginisation in the entire Imperium of Man. I find this particularly funny as the author goes on to talk about a roleplaying game and then attempts to relate it to a wargame INSTEAD of the another roleplaying game. Like say Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader.Labyrinth said: