Black Gods and Female Space Marines; A Sexy Study

[Something Amyss]

In short, yes it will. Well..."ruin" is exaggerating more than a little, but hear me out.

You pole vaulted pretty far over the point to make that rant. Just saying.

Also, I think you could have applied that to other things that weren't so controversial, like Hobbits who strangely didn't look like Hobbits or varying accents, which goes right back to the point. It's okay to have other differences, as long as they don't involve a black Hobbit.

Which goes back to another point I thought was a particularly good one. A lot of the 40K canon is completely mutable, except when they go SPES MEREENS CANT B GURLZ.

It's dumb to defend that sort of thing, because it's clearly not because of the deep and enforced canon issues. Is it misogynist? Don't know, don't care. It is, however, dumb.

I'm reminded of the Zoroastrian faith, and I apologise for bringing religion into this, but here it is. I once had the faith described to me by a Zoroastrian as having two unforgivable sins: Homosexuality and not adhering to their burial practices. I pointed out and he lated admitted to the fact that they changed the rules on one of those immutable and unforgiveable sins when leaving bodies out to rot in the persian deserts became impractical. It was unforgiveable until it became inconvenient.

And that's really what these arguments seem to come down to: Logic of convenience, sometimes of dogmatic stances rivaling religious ones.

 

[Veret]

You pole vaulted pretty far over the point to make that rant. Just saying.

Sort of. I used the black hobbits to focus my thoughts because they're the purest example I could think of. The same point goes for Heimdall, but it gets muddied up quite a bit by Marvel's clusterfuck of overlapping retcons and plot holes. I made my argument clear, now you can apply it to wherever you feel is relevant.

And you're right, this whole rant is completely irrelevant to gender issues. Hence the disclaimer.

Also, I think you could have applied that to other things that weren't so controversial, like Hobbits who strangely didn't look like Hobbits or varying accents, which goes right back to the point. It's okay to have other differences, as long as they don't involve a black Hobbit.

In a thread about women and black people, I don't think it's that unreasonable to talk about black people. I also pointed out that the same could apply to asians, latinos, and elves, but since no one is thinking about making a token pointy-eared hobbit, there's little sense in discussing it. Oh, and accents aren't genetic.

Reading over this post again, the tone comes across as a little...curt, so here's another disclaimer: No hard feelings! I came here looking for intellectual discussion, and I'm pleased to have found it, whatever our disagreements.

 

[Uncreation]

I'm confused. If the OP doesn't think that there should be any female marines, then why did he open this thread. Anyway i don't play warhammer so, i don't much care. But i would be curious about his reasons.

 

[GreyKnight3445]

2) You simply cant just take a god from a region where its always cold and snowy (therefore the people there will have white skin for the same reason that people who live in area with climates like Africa will have darker skin).

You mean Inuits and Siberians aren't dark skinned? I bet that will come as a surprise to them when they find out.

I knew that, but we`re talking about Norse vikings, not Russians in the middle of the frozen tundra.

I imagine the thing is people don't really know much about the Norse gods at all, but they at least know they're Norse. Change some thing sure, but when the Norse gods don't even look like you'd think a Norse god would look that starts to sort of stretch credulity.

When Asgard is some dimension-slipping space city and the gods are magic-using aliens, I think credulity is shot to ruin. With all of these changes, why is the skin colour of the bouncer such a huge deviation? The names, family ties and personalities of these characters have been so wildly shifted from their initial incarnations that they're only Norse Gods in name to begin with. All I'm saying is that if the fact that this man is black causes you such a horrific lack of immersion when everything else changed here doesn't... there might be more too it than an indignation over religious portrayal.

There's a serious difference between fictional characters and reality. We can cheerfully posit that Thor might have been black when he's also a spacefaring sciencewizard who hangs out with The Hulk, but we know for a fact Hitler was white.

And there's a point where it's stretched a bit far. Being fictional doesn't give such great leeway to change all the details. I'll stick this in the same category as vampires that sparkle. Sure, they're totally fictional beings so you can change whatever you like about them, but the more you change the less I'll think it deserves the original name.

Hang on. The detail that pushes this over the line is his skin tone? What about his accent? He'll have a British one, likely. Thor will be an Australian. These don't stretch it too far, but casting a perfectly able black man to play one of many loosely adapted Norse gods does? The guy has, supposedly, nine mothers! Between the original story and how wacky the marvel version of it is, I just think it's odd that the sticking point is how dark a dude is.

Say he got snowburn a lot. He's always standing near a huge icy bridge, after all.

I had no idea you read so much into the universe which created such immensely impractical means of warfare, Ultrajoe.
I somehow have a tiny amount of awe inspired in you since the Forlorn Diminishment of Aught'9.

I'm back, baby.

Okay this is ridiculous. Your making comparisons between two different things, both of which make it impossible to object against what you`ve said without getting the fanboy hammer and thereby an easy win for you. but to hell with it, here`s what i have to say.

The implicit insults that I'm here to 'win', would call you a fanboy to do so and that my entire argument is 'ridiculous' because you say so aside; I welcome your opinions and I hope in time you can understand what a Juxtaposition is.

1) female characters are represented similarly to space marines (see Sisters of Battle) and if that doesnt satisfy you than look at the Eldar. A lot of their famous leaders are badass female characters and half their unit base are female. Hopefully that satisfies the pulsating tumor that is "political correctness"

No, it doesn't. See, taking this approach of giving women designated areas in which they can find equal representation and barring them from others because 'they already have their reservations' is just about as textbook an example of sexism as it gets. It's not about 'Satisfying' political correctness, it's about fairness. And Sisters of Battle are a very far cry away from space marines, given their deployment styles and the fact that they lack genetic engineering.

2) You simply cant just take a god from a region where its always cold and snowy (therefore the people there will have white skin for the same reason that people who live in area with climates like Africa will have darker skin). There is no racism in saying that Heimdall shouldnt be black, and that kind of logic (to me in any case) is the same as the logic used by people that claimed that RE5 was racist cause you were shooting africans who were trying to murder you and the same as the actress that accused a producer of being racist because the character was different skin color!

My point is that there are good and bad reasons for opposing something, I'm not here to endorse a Black Hiemdall (although he will be rockin'), just to encourage people to understand that the problems they have with the casting are actually pretty silly. There are better reasons to oppose it, go with them instead.

You might find it interesting to note my original post includes exactly 1 count of the word 'Racism', and it was used mockingly. Most people are upset with the deviation from continuity, not the black man in question. The only problem is that, as stated, most of the ways they're saying this are silly. 'You simply can't' is pretty silly, isn't it? I mean... he simply did.

Thats why I have to say, please feel free to bash me with the easily acquired "fanboy" hammer because I defend a game and a dead religion.

Also as a side note I respect your right to say that so please respect my right to call you on it, but there`s nothing holding you to it so what the hell.

I respect you, entirely. I just wish you'd respect me enough not to assume I'm a massive prick by default and spend as much time pre-preparing against rebuttal as you do taking part in discussion. I'm here to talk, not rip into you. I just get tetchy when people speak to me like I'm already charged with douchebaggery.

I'm a fanboy, and more importantly I'm not attacking either 40K or Norse Mythology. Please don't treat me as such.

I`d actually like to apologize for that, I dont usually go into a fanboy rage about stuff, and I tend to have trouble telling if someone is a troll or not no matter how well organized the statement is. So I will try to be more civil this time.

Anyway.

This is actually my second rewrite because halfway through the first I realized I was barking up the wrong tree, so here`s my new angle.

Your main accusations against space marines is that they are all guys and no women. now in order to understand that you must look at the origins of Warhammer itself. Warhammer originated as a table top RPG called Rogue Trader. Thats where the lore for the game was set. Now this was game made for the same crowd as the D&D crew, young boys who were (at least in stereotype history) picked on for fantasizing about fantasy worlds where they were the heroes. Now since at this point female players of this were few and far between. So it evolved into mostly a male dominated game. Also I think that another reason is that human society is a theology based medieval themed empire.

 

[Labyrinth]

Your main accusations against space marines is that they are all guys and no women. now in order to understand that you must look at the origins of Warhammer itself. Warhammer originated as a table top RPG called Rogue Trader. Thats where the lore for the game was set. Now this was game made for the same crowd as the D&D crew, young boys who were (at least in stereotype history) picked on for fantasizing about fantasy worlds where they were the heroes. Now since at this point female players of this were few and far between. So it evolved into mostly a male dominated game. Also I think that another reason is that human society is a theology based medieval themed empire.

I don't see how this is a reason to keep it in that vein. Traditions aren't necessarily positive things, just look at the Imperium for stagnation to prove that. There is so much room for creativity and variation within Warhammer and 40k that clinging to gender bias is frankly pathetic. I find it amusing that I could put a Hello Kitty Spees Muhren army out and play, yet still get people who would refuse to dignify me with a game if I stated "Well actually, this conservatively painted marine model with no chest modification is female." Not to mention some truly offensively bad paint jobs I've seen.

The universes of 40k and Warhammer constantly evolve. The player base does as well with more women joining up as time goes by. Why not embrace that change instead of sitting on ones fortressed balcony shaking a stick and decrying it as the worst thing possible? If nothing else it makes financial sense for GW to make its games more accessible to a female audience, not to mention the amount of bitching I've heard from guys that they can't find women who respect their hobbies. With this kind of sexism, not to mention the rampant over-sexualisation of female characters and models, is it really surprising? How can excluding female players be a good thing, for the audience overall or for GW in particular?

 

[SpaceGhost2K]

Unless the character being portrayed was specifically defined in canon, and required as part of the personality of the character, it doesn't matter. I don't know if Ford Prefect was described in HHGTTU as "white" but did it damage the story to have him played in the movie by Mos Def? Surely not.

However, imagine if a non-Asian played Kato in "The Green Hornet." It wouldn't be Kato, and the story and character would suffer because of it. UNLESS the goal was a reinvention, like an African-American version of the story. You can make anyone "The Karate Kid" that you want, as long as they're a kid, but you can't have Will Ferrell play Mr. Miyagi.

Honestly, I think it would be a brilliant piece of film making to have a black Hitler or a white Malcolm X, just to see how much it would hurt your brain to think of it in those terms. I think it would work. I think "John of Arc" wouldn't. Hitler wasn't a blond haired, blue eyed member of the master race he was trying to promote, so what if he was black and trying to promote the same thing?

As long as Thor and crew aren't speaking Spanish, I don't care too much about the rest of it. I think there's a lot of extremely talented, non-white actors out there that could use the work (and I DON'T mean Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington or Halle Berry.)

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Female Space Marines: Can't exist because the cloning procedure is only breeding towards male biology gender types. Female Marines would require a secondary cloning mechanism which would substantially increase the loss of replication. It would also require separate male/female cloning seeds.

On a biological sense, this is because the men are DRONES. Like insects, and most other species in this world, the men are inbred expendable meatshields that carry seeds.

The Eldar have female marines, or the like...they call them Harlequins. They don't have male ones though, for exactly the same reason.

The Squats, well...they can't tell the difference anyway.

Which brings me to Gods, Hobbits and Titans.

The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Clash of the Titans and Thor all assume that these worlds have exactly the same sort of mental make-up as we do.

They don't.

REALLY they don't.

Here's a quick taster; in the Hobbit - GANDALF SMOKES A PIPE INSIDE AND ENJOYS IT.

Think that's gonna be in the film without a good dissection that SMOKING IS BAD? Nah.

Equally, is an Asian Hobbit going to make any difference to the film? No.

Is it gonna make a HUGE difference to how the film is seen. Very much so.

Spike Lee's assertion that black guys get put into films as the Magical Negro - citing Morgan Freeman as God in Bruce Almighty puts an idea of racism into any 'black' actor/actress in a position that they give the main hero a way to overcome an obstacle - without remembering that, according to Joseph Campbell, most characters on the way do that.

But let's leave racism before it gets uglier than it already is.

Back to Marines.

There possibly were Female Marines. But they've been hammered with testoreone, given masectomies to remove that useless flesh, had their bones tightened up, dermaweave to the upper body to increase strength, removed that useless genetalia, strengthened their skin and lots more.

(Corollary: Female Biological difference that are useful: Like protection from Haemophilia, increased drug resistance, lower centre of gravity will have been added to the Marine seed for men as well)

There aren't Female Marines anymore. There aren't Male Marines either. They're just Marines.

Equally, there aren't Asian Hobbits. There are Hobbits that may remind you of Asian people, but they should all speak in a similar way and love pies and pipes.

And Gods? They should be believed in whole heartedly in Ancient Greece and Norse Myth. (And be childish monsters)

We're not re-inventing their world. We're describing the differences. That's what I think people forget.

 

[GreyKnight3445]

Your main accusations against space marines is that they are all guys and no women. now in order to understand that you must look at the origins of Warhammer itself. Warhammer originated as a table top RPG called Rogue Trader. Thats where the lore for the game was set. Now this was game made for the same crowd as the D&D crew, young boys who were (at least in stereotype history) picked on for fantasizing about fantasy worlds where they were the heroes. Now since at this point female players of this were few and far between. So it evolved into mostly a male dominated game. Also I think that another reason is that human society is a theology based medieval themed empire.

I don't see how this is a reason to keep it in that vein. Traditions aren't necessarily positive things, just look at the Imperium for stagnation to prove that. There is so much room for creativity and variation within Warhammer and 40k that clinging to gender bias is frankly pathetic. I find it amusing that I could put a Hello Kitty Spees Muhren army out and play, yet still get people who would refuse to dignify me with a game if I stated "Well actually, this conservatively painted marine model with no chest modification is female." Not to mention some truly offensively bad paint jobs I've seen.

The universes of 40k and Warhammer constantly evolve. The player base does as well with more women joining up as time goes by. Why not embrace that change instead of sitting on ones fortressed balcony shaking a stick and decrying it as the worst thing possible? If nothing else it makes financial sense for GW to make its games more accessible to a female audience, not to mention the amount of bitching I've heard from guys that they can't find women who respect their hobbies. With this kind of sexism, not to mention the rampant over-sexualisation of female characters and models, is it really surprising? How can excluding female players be a good thing, for the audience overall or for GW in particular?

If its so important to you why not write a letter to GM about? And to answer your question. They`re not excluding female players, and if 40k is so sexist then why havent female 40k players as a whole complained against it? Answer: because there is no sexism in 40k. The Sisters of Battle may not be the super sized, buller eating juggernauts that are The Emperor`s Space Marines but they are still woman walking around in armor the size of a tank and killing everything with fire. (also as a side note I showed the Sisters of Battle and 40k to a female friend of mine an she didnt see an sexism)
Besides its a damn game, if you dont like dont play it. Its not like your being made to.

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

Can we not just accept that the genetic modifications applied to Spezz Muhrijns (which may have included vast amounts of testosterone, known to promote muscle growth amongst other things) has rendered them such a (homogeneous) genetic wreck that frankly it doesn't really matter what they're packing in their pants - and that in the interests of speed, efficiency, tradition, whatever, they all take the male pronoun because referring to each one as "it" simply gets too confusing.

That way it doesn't really matter if the initiate started off male or female, what they're packing in the crotch-plate area - they're an androgynous mutant mess whose sole function is to fight.

Anyone whining about canonical crap can suck my crotch-plate, Jee Dub have messed with their own continuity so many times it no longer matters, reworking and revamping bits of it with each reboot of 40k, each new army released - I'm sorry Dark Eldar? Do you want fries with your Linkin Park CD and pack of razor blades?

You said it better, and funnier, than I could.

 

[Jazzyjazz2323]

The Emperor disapproves of Female Space Marines because it's been stated BY GW they can't you have SoB go play with them!On the other hand should there be more inclusion of female IG HQ choices most definitely in all the books you have numerous mentions of female guardsmen yet not one damn femguard seriously WTB FEM COMMISSAR PST!

 

[jamesworkshop]

If we're looking at space marines as a "priesthood" as they are normally viewed, women would have no part within it for obvious reasons, considering that the Imperium is like a giant Roman Catholic church, this point would make sense. Also, each chapter of space marines varies widely, due to how well they follow the Codex Astartes that the Emperor made for all space marine chapters. The Ultramarines being those who follow it to the letter while other chapters don't follow it as well, such as the Salamanders who are more "human" and I think I read somewhere they have wives/consorts/something of the like. My point being that because the spez muhreens are based upon a sort of religious "priesthood", allowing women would go too far beyond the Codex Astartes.

The thing is, if you change the Codex Astartes then that problem suddenly ceases to exist. In-universe blockades mean nothing, and if we can't summon think of a good narrative or thematic reason to exclude women from the ranks of the elite... then there is no good reason, and it's time to bring the ladies into the Power Armour.

Entrenched sexism (especially that of a monotheistic religion) is never a good reason for anything, but as a storytelling device entrenched sexism can be a powerful emotive device. Defend the narrative device, not the sexism behind it.

On the topic of the African-American guy playing a Norse god, it gets into some pretty complicated psychology on racism that I just don't want to go over.

That's why I've provided the similar issue of female space marines to act as a sounding board and grounding for the discussion of Hiemdall's pigmentation. Though the discussion has deviated somewhat, I think it's an apt juxtaposition that lets us see the process that's caused this whole stink.

As a huge 40K fan I have to disagree The Imperium is about as non-sexist as it is possible to be, possitions of power are generally taken by force or bribery(fair game).

No female space marines because they do not fit the established story, sure they could rewrite that at any time but that doesn't discount what has currently been written, The dark age of technology destroyed all sence of progress, nobody knows how plasmaguns work, they simply maintain the ones they have or crudely replicate them, same with marines, The imperium simply does not know how to take the Y-chromosone encoded Progenitor glands, when most males don't survive the process.

The Imperium would have Female marines in a second (less than one marine for each world of the Imperium, not a number that is desired) if they knew how, they would have plasmaguns that don't overheat and kill the user if they knew how.

asking for a plot rewrite is fine, saying male-only marines doesn't fit the established story is stupid

 

[Darmort]

You know, I think there is actually a fluff explanation. This might not cover the first decade or so of 40K where everything was a complete and utter mess in terms of fluff, but a lot of it has to do with the genes of Primarch and more importantly the Emperor, and I think a lot of this has remained unchanged since it's start and initial writing back whenever.

The gene-seeds were made from the DNA of the Primarch's, who were male, thus it would be reasonable to presume the gene-seeds hold an XY chromosone, as opposed to an XX chromosone. These gene-seeds carry on from Marine to Marine, thus the gene-seeds, you know, the Space Marine part of the Space Marine, is tailored to male hormones.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

This seems to have additional information, but; Zygotes keyed to male hormones. Referenced from Rogue Trader 1987.
Just saying. It's in the fluff.

Besides that, I really don't want female Space Marines for many reasons;
A retcon of 23 years of fluff
A retcon of the VERY RECENT HORUS HERESY SERIES
More models for Games Workshop to sell me to ruin the cohesion of my existing army
Anyone older than thirty whining about how they changed it to appease the "sexism" outcriers.
I personally believe it's characterful. None of the Starship Troopers or Federation nonsense, especially in a heavily Nazi-inspired universe.


That's why Sisters of Battle were made. They're the same thing on the faith and spiritual level, just not the physical level.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Female Space Marines? Nossir, I don't like it. Admittedly that would only be one extra anchovy on a pizza that has already been liberally sprayed with fish sauce and whole herring, but that's still no reason for me to acquiesce and say "yeah go on then, hit me with more".

More OT, yes saying that it would be flat out impossible to make a female space marine in a fictional setting is stupid. It may be "impossible" within the 'rules' of the setting but seeing as those rules are fictional they can be altered, therefore it is possible.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

I've been into Warhammer (both fantasy and 40k) for most of my life, and although I don't really see why having female Marines would ruin them, I agree that the backstory wouldn't allow it so I don't want it. More important question: why do peoples like the Space Marines? By far the most boring bunch of the 40k universe... Lore-breaking has happened a lot on the Marines part already, but I can't really say I care. They are very uninteresting to me...

In the rest of the 40k universe there are a few choises of female warriors, but in both 40k and Fantasy I wish female models would be more commonly available as in both games there are races where female warriors are a big part.

I'm not sure I follow you on the whole "Black Norse God" thing... If I get you right then, no: I don't agree that a Norse god should/could be black, unless they invent a new god that doesn't really exist in Norse mythology (from the land of the Vikings myself you know...). The gods were "dreamed up" by a people exclusively white, from the far northern countries of Europe, and like gods from Egyptian/Indian and other faiths, it's highly unlikely one of their gods would have any other skin color than their own. (Then again, both those mythologies enjoy animal-headed gods, but those with skin have dark/tan/reddish skin, for obvious reasons.

A white man can't play Nelson Mandela in a movie about him. A black man can't play Adolph Hitler (would be quite strange, no?). As much as I love Cris Rock, I couldn't see him in the part of Thor without thinking it's not quite right.

But those are real people. A norse god isn't.

I'm sure his costume isn't 1:1 accurate with either the comic or the mythology, but no ones arguing that. Call it a re-imagining if you have to.

 

[RJ Dalton]

I think that it's a fair argument about respecting the color of original mythologies. If you had an African pantheon portrayed in a movie as having a white deity, people would go fucking insane about it, so if you depict a European pantheon, it should have white deities. That's a fair argument.
But The Mighty Thor is a comic book wherein it is implied (if not directly stated - I don't know for sure because I haven't read much of it) that they aren't really gods, just super powerful aliens. So you know, as long as you make the movie interesting, have yourselves a rockin' good time. I don't much give a shit.

Besides, WH40K already has female space marines. They're called the Sisters of Battle.

 

[teisjm]

As for female space marines, Aren't all the space marines clones made from the god emperor of man kinds DNA? I'm not sure about this, but i seem to remember something about it.
If they are, there shouldn't be female space marines, cause you can't make a woman by cloning a guy. If this is not the case, i don't neccecerily see the problem.

Though i do wish to point out one thing, people who are against female space marines are not neccecerily chauvinists or misogynists themselves, they might just see the space marines as misogynists, and therefore thinks it would make no sense for them to have female members.
If i think the space marines are overly-manly men who considers themselves so manly that they'd never accept female marines, doesn't mean i myself wouldn't approve of female marines, if i was in charge of the space marines. It means i wouldn't aprove of the space marines aproving of it, cause it doens't fit their character to do so. Just like i wouldn't aprove of a villain in a story doing stuff i myself would consider good, cause it doesn't fit his character.

As for the black Heimdal... i don't really care, even if i cared about the movie, i wouldn't care, the norse gods wasn't vikings, they were gods, so they can have whatever colour of skin they like.
I prefer people who fit their caracter on what matters, and in the case of norse gods, skin color doesn't matter, when they´re extra-dimensional aliens.

 

[Diceman]

...Besides, WH40K already has female space marines. They're called the Sisters of Battle.

Oh good, I scroll to the last page because reading 3 of them would simply get too boring and someone already said exactly what I was going to point out.

There are the Sisters of Battle, then there's ALSO the Inquisition, which are by far the most gender fair institutions in Warhammer. There are several dozen female Inquisitors, often mentioned in various books and even the subsection of Warhammer 40k, unsurprisingly named "Inquisitor".

Yes, while I realise that men are by far mentioned almost all the time, that there are almost never any suggestion of women in the Imperial Guard (but they definitely do exist) this is simply because... well... almost everyone that plays it are guys. It's just a coincidence.