Borderlands 2

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targren

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leet_x1337 said:
The PC version is confirmed to use Steamworks even if you buy it hardcopy. I think it's coming to Steam.
I've been waiting for BL2 since they announced it, and jumped at the uber-deluxe-overpriced-crap edition.

Then I caught a whiff of this info and cancelled my preorder. :( I really, really hate Steam DRM... Now I only have TL2 and GW2 to look forward to this year. :'(
 

NerfedFalcon

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targren said:
leet_x1337 said:
The PC version is confirmed to use Steamworks even if you buy it hardcopy. I think it's coming to Steam.
I've been waiting for BL2 since they announced it, and jumped at the uber-deluxe-overpriced-crap edition.

Then I caught a whiff of this info and cancelled my preorder. :( I really, really hate Steam DRM... Now I only have TL2 and GW2 to look forward to this year. :'(
Could be worse. Could have been Games for Windows Live. Or Ubisoft's DRM which requires a constant connection, not just a check when you boot it up.

Besides, Steam really isn't that bad. Sure, it might not have had the best start, but it's better than most DRM systems. Sure, I don't lie to myself - it is DRM, but it lets you install off the disk if you bought it hardcopy and it's also (for me, anyway) worked out all the kinks in offline mode. And here's the other thing - if the game is good enough, the DRM shouldn't get to you.
 

TheSteeleStrap

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Borderlands was one of those games I lost track of time while playing. So I'm excited for a sequel, have it pre-ordered already. Just couldn't pass up the pre-order bonuses.
 

targren

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leet_x1337 said:
And here's the other thing - if the game is good enough, the DRM shouldn't get to you.
That is where we disagree. I've been gaming long enough and I have a large enough collection spanning 4 decades, so that I don't need to submit myself to DRM. It doesn't matter to me HOW good a game is, if it's going deprive me of my rights for playing it. Until Valve fixes Steam's TOS (which will probably never happen), my steam account is going to stay empty of everything but the Humble Bundle games, which I also have archived on BD.

Why the hell should I jump through hoops to play their game so that they can treat me like a criminal, especially when I can ACT like a criminal and skip the hoops! It's such a phenomenal, idiotic clusterfuck that it's basically the digital world's equivalent of the TSA.
 

NerfedFalcon

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targren said:
leet_x1337 said:
And here's the other thing - if the game is good enough, the DRM shouldn't get to you.
That is where we disagree. I've been gaming long enough and I have a large enough collection spanning 4 decades, so that I don't need to submit myself to DRM. It doesn't matter to me HOW good a game is, if it's going deprive me of my rights for playing it. Until Valve fixes Steam's TOS (which will probably never happen), my steam account is going to stay empty of everything but the Humble Bundle games, which I also have archived on BD.

Why the hell should I jump through hoops to play their game so that they can treat me like a criminal, especially when I can ACT like a criminal and skip the hoops! It's such a phenomenal, idiotic clusterfuck that it's basically the digital world's equivalent of the TSA.
Ask yourself this, then: Why is Steam so much more successful than Origin, without using any derogatory terms to refer to the general public?
 

targren

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leet_x1337 said:
Ask yourself this, then: Why is Steam so much more successful than Origin, without using any derogatory terms to refer to the general public?
I would never ask myself that, because that's a nonsense question that falsely equates popularity with quality and acceptability.
 

NerfedFalcon

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targren said:
leet_x1337 said:
Ask yourself this, then: Why is Steam so much more successful than Origin, without using any derogatory terms to refer to the general public?
I would never ask myself that, because that's a nonsense question that falsely equates popularity with quality and acceptability.
I've played a lot of old games. I have a GoG account. Most of them, coming from a modern perspective, really aren't that great. Being only able to select 12 units in Starcraft or no in-game tutorial in Heroes of Might and Magic 3 are all well and good if you grew up with them, but trying to play them now with no prior experience, it's no wonder more people don't use GoG. And besides, Steam has worked out a lot of its problems - I've never had issues with offline mode, you can actually install games off the disc if you bought it hardcopy and Valve aren't prone to random bans - and when you do get banned from VAC servers, it doesn't lock you out of all your games.

Sure, it's DRM, but in today's industry you can't go anywhere without finding it, and having no nostalgia goggles, it's just something we live with. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
 

Tony2077

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i plan to get it. this talk about drm isn't going to help anything so either talk about the game or find something else to do else where.
 

targren

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leet_x1337 said:
I've played a lot of old games. I have a GoG account. Most of them, coming from a modern perspective, really aren't that great. Being only able to select 12 units in Starcraft or no in-game tutorial in Heroes of Might and Magic 3 are all well and good if you grew up with them, but trying to play them now with no prior experience, it's no wonder more people don't use GoG. And besides, Steam has worked out a lot of its problems - I've never had issues with offline mode, you can actually install games off the disc if you bought it hardcopy and Valve aren't prone to random bans - and when you do get banned from VAC servers, it doesn't lock you out of all your games.

Sure, it's DRM, but in today's industry you can't go anywhere without finding it, and having no nostalgia goggles, it's just something we live with. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
Most of my old games are on consoles (or emulated consoles) and they still serve me just fine. Steam has NOT addressed the SINGLE problem that will keep me from buying from them. As long as their TOS says that they can remove my access to games I have legitimately purchased, I will NOT purchase any games from them, or that requires connecting to them. And I'm not talking about VAC servers, since 99.9% of the time, I don't give a damn about multiplayer anyway. I'm talking about the steam account itself.

That's just a non-option. Period. It doesn't matter if they're "Not prone to random bans." Rule #1 of business contracts is "if a contract gives a party the right to do something, assume they will do it."

You can call it "cutting off my nose to spite my face." I call it standing up for myself and not paying for the privilege of being treated like their *****. It's bad enough that the law's been corrupted to the point where corporations can pull this sort of thing "because we said so," but there's no way in hell I'm going to support it with my money for something as pointless as a video game.

Sometimes there are more important issues to consider besides playing the latest and greatest. If that means that I stop being a customer for the entire industry, then so be it.
 

NerfedFalcon

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targren said:
leet_x1337 said:
I've played a lot of old games. I have a GoG account. Most of them, coming from a modern perspective, really aren't that great. Being only able to select 12 units in Starcraft or no in-game tutorial in Heroes of Might and Magic 3 are all well and good if you grew up with them, but trying to play them now with no prior experience, it's no wonder more people don't use GoG. And besides, Steam has worked out a lot of its problems - I've never had issues with offline mode, you can actually install games off the disc if you bought it hardcopy and Valve aren't prone to random bans - and when you do get banned from VAC servers, it doesn't lock you out of all your games.

Sure, it's DRM, but in today's industry you can't go anywhere without finding it, and having no nostalgia goggles, it's just something we live with. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
Most of my old games are on consoles (or emulated consoles) and they still serve me just fine. Steam has NOT addressed the SINGLE problem that will keep me from buying from them. As long as their TOS says that they can remove my access to games I have legitimately purchased, I will NOT purchase any games from them, or that requires connecting to them. And I'm not talking about VAC servers, since 99.9% of the time, I don't give a damn about multiplayer anyway. I'm talking about the steam account itself.

That's just a non-option. Period. It doesn't matter if they're "Not prone to random bans." Rule #1 of business contracts is "if a contract gives a party the right to do something, assume they will do it."

You can call it "cutting off my nose to spite my face." I call it standing up for myself and not paying for the privilege of being treated like their *****. It's bad enough that the law's been corrupted to the point where corporations can pull this sort of thing "because we said so," but there's no way in hell I'm going to support it with my money for something as pointless as a video game.

Sometimes there are more important issues to consider besides playing the latest and greatest. If that means that I stop being a customer for the entire industry, then so be it.
Then get off your ass, stop playing pirated games and write them a letter or something. And get a whole bunch of other people to write them a letter as well. By hand, not just an e-mail. You want to make a change to the industry? Make it. Don't just complain about it. Meanwhile, don't buy the PC version if Steamworks is that much of a deal-breaker. Play it on a console, if you have one. Or buy the PC version but don't bother registering it on Steam - cracks are all over the place these days[footnote]Dear mods: just stating a fact.[/footnote]. Gearbox still get your money and you still get an awesome (possibly) game but Valve are out of the loop.
 

targren

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leet_x1337 said:
Then get off your ass, stop playing pirated games and write them a letter or something. And get a whole bunch of other people to write them a letter as well. By hand, not just an e-mail. You want to make a change to the industry? Make it. Don't just complain about it. Meanwhile, don't buy the PC version if Steamworks is that much of a deal-breaker. Play it on a console, if you have one. Or buy the PC version but don't bother registering it on Steam - cracks are all over the place these days. Gearbox still get your money and you still get an awesome (possibly) game but Valve are out of the loop.
I didn't say I was playing pirated games. I said I might as well since I get a better experience from that than from buying the games legitimately. And I don't like playing shooters on consoles. As for playing it on PC: Why should I pay for it and then crack it? That's just stupid.

It's a matter of personal taste, so for games like BL2, I just won't play it at all, and Gearbox will NOT get of my money, which is my intention. They elected to use Steamworks, I elect that they don't deserve my money. It's as simple as that.
 

Tony2077

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well its so much more fun to watch this from the side lines. if i had to pick side i wouldn't go with the last poster
 

targren

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Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not really interested in your approval, isn't it, Tony?
 

NerfedFalcon

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I didn't know forum arguments were a spectator sport now. It's just two guys shouting about how neither can convince the other - nothing you guys haven't seen a thousand times before. Let's try getting this place back on topic, huh?
 

Tony2077

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targren said:
Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not really interested in your approval, isn't it, Tony?
well yes but its more that what your saying doesn't make any sense.
 

targren

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Tony2077 said:
targren said:
Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not really interested in your approval, isn't it, Tony?
well yes but its more that what your saying doesn't make any sense.
More accurately, that you don't understand what I'm saying. Or that you don't care about it. Either one of those are perfectly acceptable positions to hold, but to state that it's not logically consistent is just an outright lie.
 

Tony2077

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targren said:
Tony2077 said:
targren said:
Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not really interested in your approval, isn't it, Tony?
well yes but its more that what your saying doesn't make any sense.
More accurately, that you don't understand what I'm saying. Or that you don't care about it. Either one of those are perfectly acceptable positions to hold, but to state that it's not logically consistent is just an outright lie.
worrying about something that may or may not happen then trying to defend it to this point yeah it doesn't make sense.
 

targren

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Tony2077 said:
worrying about something that may or may not happen then trying to defend it to this point yeah it doesn't make sense.
Obviously spoken by someone who's never run his own business.
 

Tony2077

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targren said:
Tony2077 said:
worrying about something that may or may not happen then trying to defend it to this point yeah it doesn't make sense.
Obviously spoken by someone who's never run his own business.
really does that make your opinion any different then mine in terms of importance no it doesn't
 

targren

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Tony2077 said:
targren said:
Obviously spoken by someone who's never run his own business.
really does that make your opinion any different then mine in terms of importance no it doesn't
In terms of importance? No.

In terms of experience and competence in determining what makes sense in the context of contractual concerns? Absolutely.