Brink : No Girls Allowed

[zeldagirl]

As a new person to the forums, I have to say, this topic is horrendous enough to make me want to leave. The blatant sexism from many male members, and the internalized misogyny of some of the women, just makes me really uncomfortable.

But I have to say, to Farseer Lolotea - you are freaking awesome. I really admire your courage, to be taking on this many individuals who just DON'T GET what it feels like to be marginalized by the gaming industry because of stupid behaviors like this on the part of Brink's. Thank you for standing up for women who care about games, and want to see the existence of our gender acknowledged.

And thank you randomfox and MasterV - it's great to see awesome male allies who can see through the bull as well. You and a few other awesome users are pretty much the only reason why I'm convincing myself to stay at the Escapist and not run for the hills.


Keep on keepin' on.

Don't let threads like this turn you off the forum as a whole - most people here seem very reasonable, but some topics just seem to bring the misogynists out of the woodwork for some reason.

I'm trying to remember that. Apparently, I keep getting drawn into topics where there is some sort of debate about women or feminism. Make it stoppppp!!


I won't leave, yet. There are some very nice people here.

 

[Super Happy Cow]

Go ahead. Explain to me the first steps you would take in developing a pipeline that would facilitate the streamlining of the character creation process that would result in 24 distinct looking characters, 3 bodytypes, and both sexes, All within 2 UV spaces maximum, for the base models, and give me an estimate of how long that would take.

Body armor. See also: Halo Reach, real life. Alternately, I'd transfer some of my budget from clothing to character design. Or, I could choose the more interesting option in the context of the industry and have the characters be all female vs. all male.

Thats...not a 3D pipeline. But the male vs female thing would have been an interesting idea. I wonder if they tossed that one around.

 

[Chiasm]

Resident Evil 2 is a good game. And yes, that is a sentient lump of tofu.

Turns out those zombies are vegan.

Wow that brings back good memories, In fact I am willing to settle for the loss of female characters if we can trade them for Tofu or vegetable inspired characters.

In fact maybe then the developers can try to figure out how to make a sex symbol with Tofu Amazon Warriors.

 

[Lord Honk]

Ok, so we can haz either completely uncustomizable games like, say, StarCraft, which sell like topmodels wearing pudding bikinis, or games that try to accomodate as many options as they a)think neccessary b)have the time to put in the game and c)don't forget about, which gets measured not by the multitude of options it has, but by those it is lacking.

Honestly, I couldn't care less if Brink was as customizable as Counter Strike. I just don't understand why having a female skin in a shooter is the most important thing to complain about, when the game has enough inherent flaws to latch on to.

And I'll just throw in my sexist comment of the day: Why would a male leadership let the more important (for breeding purposes) gender be killed in battle?

 

[Super Happy Cow]

Really, people need to learn how to read.

People are pissed because apparently SD made a big to-do about customization (aside from 1 video, I wasn't really aware of this), but the game does not have females. It's actually a perfectly logical point. Females aren't essential in games, but they become important when your game boasts customization of characters.

The other side of the issue that everyone seems to ignore, is that having females in the game automatically doubles the costs of paying the artists involved, while SD is not a huge studio. They only sold 1 game that was relatively massive, and released a completely free, full title before that. Pretending that a game company has enough resources to produce all of these assets, and magically pay artists, is the same reason that companies have to lay off artists every year, and why the industry is so unstable. On the other hand, expecting it after they apparently say they can, is an entirely different story. : P

 

[Lord Honk]

*le snip*

People seem to be intentionally ignoring the point on purpose now. It WOULDN'T Be a big deal in Brink if they hadn't jacked off in the communities face about how customizable their game is. Counter Strike didn't make such a claim, no other game did (and they are all the better for it, because frankly I am starting to get confused as to why a first person shooter cares so much about stuff like customizable character models) but Brink did. Not including the most basic option in all of character customization, especually when they are basing their marketing of the game on it, is hypocritical. Hypocrisy from these people should not be allowed to slide, and you are intentionally blind if you think otherwise.

And on the second point, two things: why are you assuming the leadership is male, and what history class did you flunk to think a rebellion force would exclude people willing to fight for their cause just because they have vaginas? No self respecting resistance would do that, and any that do wouldn't last a week against an organized armed force that obviously outnumbers them, because they were too stupid to take every able bodies person who volunteered.

Here's an example of a game that boasted with customizability, did the lack of women really make a difference?
And to get back on my second point: If you were part of a faction that put the potential future of it's people at risk for the sake of a larger force, would you not disagree with their decission? I interpret the scenario of Brink as a long-lasting conflict, not a series of battles where the largest force wins. In wars, the army that runs out of resources loses. If that resource is manpower, why would you waste it?

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

As a new person to the forums, I have to say, this topic is horrendous enough to make me want to leave. The blatant sexism from many male members, and the internalized misogyny of some of the women, just makes me really uncomfortable.

But I have to say, to Farseer Lolotea - you are freaking awesome. I really admire your courage, to be taking on this many individuals who just DON'T GET what it feels like to be marginalized by the gaming industry because of stupid behaviors like this on the part of Brink's. Thank you for standing up for women who care about games, and want to see the existence of our gender acknowledged.

And thank you randomfox and MasterV - it's great to see awesome male allies who can see through the bull as well. You and a few other awesome users are pretty much the only reason why I'm convincing myself to stay at the Escapist and not run for the hills.

Keep on keepin' on.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. And Kahuna's right; it's not always this bad. This thread just seems to have drawn a lot of the...characters...out of the woodwork.

the weakest of cop-outs

What, I should give that guy more of the attention he so clearly craves?

 

[Lord Honk]

Aaaaand, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not on the second point. I will say that you should look up Women and the Russian Theater of WWII. When you are fighting for your very existence against an undisputably stronger foe, you throw every single fucking person you have at them cuz in situations like that, the only advantage you have if more man power. It is ridiculous to cut off half of your potential manpower just to preserve the weak womanly folk. For one thing, that is incredibly sexist, and when you are fighting for your very survival you don't waste time on that sort of thing or you lose very quickly, and for two things it's strategically inadvisable to say the least. They haven't regressed to primitive ways, they're a futuristic society! Progress does not start going backwards the father in the future you go!

Just as a last point before I go to sleep:
I do understand what you're saying, and I am agreeing in your point: It would be stupid to not send all you've got into a battle. But for me, that only holds true if you know your opponent is doing the same. When you've got something as long-winded as, say, the Thirty Years' War, then having women to bear children is what will keep you existing beyond the conflict, not just through it. I'm not willingly being sexist, but think about this: During the TYW, the rate of birth decreased by about 50% in Pomerania. That's 50% less people than could have been standing against a possible enemy. (Granted, there was famine and illnesses that contributed to the low rates, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.)

Anyways, g'night folks.

 

[nukethetuna]

I would like to point out that I think the whole "snip" business is retarded. Not saying anything about the people who do it, just throwing my two cents out on that particular aspect of forum community that aggrivates me.

It's mostly so that the quotes of quotes on quotes in quotes whilst quoting don't grow to be too large, I think.

I have to wonder, if they'd just changed the story to be like "There's a magic electromagnetic barrier that zaps anything without a penis", or some other sort of ridiculous handwave, instead of admitting that they couldn't fit women in based on their budget/deadline, would everyone be ok with it?

And to everyone saying that they removed half of their customization options by removing women, despite all of those resources instead being allocated to male models, their resources probably aren't infinite. At worst, there are an equal number of options as there would be with women, at best, they actually added more by having to work with less models. You can certainly argue they removed an IMPORTANT customization option, though.

...Anyways, who wants to play some Other M? Samus is a girl in a game!

 

[loodmoney]

I have to wonder, if they'd just changed the story to be like "There's a magic electromagnetic barrier that zaps anything without a penis", or some other sort of ridiculous handwave, instead of admitting that they couldn't fit women in based on their budget/deadline, would everyone be ok with it?

No, this would be to write the excuse into the game itself. They still failed to include women.

And to everyone saying that they removed half of their customization options by removing women, despite all of those resources instead being allocated to male models, their resources probably aren't infinite. At worst, there are an equal number of options as there would be with women, at best, they actually added more by having to work with less models. You can certainly argue they removed an IMPORTANT customization option, though.

That is exactly what we are saying. They had a number of ways they could have gone with the customisation thing, and they chose to spend the resources they had on a variety of hats rather than the existence of women. Those are some pretty shitty priorities.

But for me, that only holds true if you know your opponent is doing the same.

I have already said why I think in-game excuses don't work, but re: this: what the hell? If they outnumber you ten-to-one, you are going to hold back because they aren't on the verge of extinction?

 

[Chemical Alia]

It's just a job, and I'm just entry level. But I know my shit, so don't make yourself look like a complete **** being hyper aggressive and assuming that I don't.

Go ahead. Explain to me the first steps you would take in developing a pipeline that would facilitate the streamlining of the character creation process that would result in 24 distinct looking characters, 3 bodytypes, and both sexes, All within 2 UV spaces maximum, for the base models, and give me an estimate of how long that would take.

To be fair, I am a next-gen 3d modeler for a AAA studio as well. I know artists (character and otherwise) who sit on both sides of the fence on this issue, so I don't think the impression here should be that the opinion of one professional is held by all of them. I don't think that doubling the base models to include females is the way to go, but to see a third to half of the existing character templates as females may have been just as nice, and possibly even give the feeling of more variety with the gender option.

And unless the females were all meant to look and move like the Siren from Borderlands, I question how much separate rigging really needs to be done in a FPS, and one with 3 distinct body types already integrated. Balance is the key, and solutions could be found in the concept/design stage and prototypes tested early on to ensure they feel right. Such a stylized aesthetic as Brink's would allow for a lot more leeway than a strictly realistic one. I say this because I've personally done a fair bit of female character modding for a stylized, male-only FPS (TF2), and while it took some careful concepting to fit the male frame and rig, it was far from impossible. And I was a complete nub when I began the project. The results were well-received by the community by my research (250+ sample, male and female) and Valve themselves.

So just sayin'.

Do you know how many studios close on average per year? And how many people get layed off after every production cycle?

No studio should be forced to take unnecessary risks, though of course it happens all too often, sadly. I don't see how adding females necessarily causes such a tremendous game-breaking risk as you have suggested.

I do understand what you're saying, and I am agreeing in your point: It would be stupid to not send all you've got into a battle. But for me, that only holds true if you know your opponent is doing the same. When you've got something as long-winded as, say, the Thirty Years' War, then having women to bear children is what will keep you existing beyond the conflict, not just through it. I'm not willingly being sexist, but think about this: During the TYW, the rate of birth decreased by about 50% in Pomerania. That's 50% less people than could have been standing against a possible enemy. (Granted, there was famine and illnesses that contributed to the low rates, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.)

Also, ew. I wouldn't care if I was one of the last ten women in my society left due to war, I wouldn't consider it my duty to bear children nor would I willingly choose to. I'd still prefer a gun in my hand, leave procreation to the other nine if they so choose.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

To be fair, I am a next-gen 3d modeler for a AAA studio as well. I know artists (character and otherwise) who sit on both sides of the fence on this issue, so I don't think the impression here should be that the opinion of one professional is held by all of them. I don't think that doubling the base models to include females is the way to go, but to see a third to half of the existing character templates as females may have been just as nice, and possibly even give the feeling of more variety with the gender option.

And unless the females were all meant to look and move like the Siren from Borderlands, I question how much separate rigging really needs to be done in a FPS, and one with 3 distinct body types already integrated. Balance is the key, and solutions could be found in the concept/design stage and prototypes tested early on to ensure they feel right. Such a stylized aesthetic as Brink's would allow for a lot more leeway than a strictly realistic one. I say this because I've personally done a fair bit of female character modding for a stylized, male-only FPS (TF2), and while it took some careful concepting to fit the male frame and rig, it was far from impossible. And I was a complete nub when I began the project. The results were well-received by the community by my research (250+ sample, male and female) and Valve themselves.

So just sayin'.

Oh, hello!

For the record, I've always admired your work. Great balance between keeping the characters recognizable and making them clearly female. (Damn, but I probably sound like a suck-up. But I mean it.)

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

She brings up an interesting point about Siren from Borderlands though. If she moved differently it was never something I noticed, and characters like Zoey from L4D have the same animations and are built around the same build as the males, and it isn't very noticeable. I suppose in a game like Brink it might be since people are flipping around like Mirror's Edge was the hot new IP to rip off, but I still doubt the validity of the "if they made females they would have been shut down or ran out of money/not have been as polished as it is now" argument.

How much money does it really cost to make female movements look like female movements, instead of just male ones but with more slender legs or something?

I haven't played Borderlands yet. But from what I know of it, the Siren kind of minces around.

And she stands hipshot. To tell the truth, her idle stance kind of makes me think "blood elf."

 

[Chemical Alia]

Oh, hello!

For the record, I've always admired your work. Great balance between keeping the characters recognizable and making them clearly female. (Damn, but I probably sound like a suck-up. But I mean it.)

Thanks! That means a lot to me, for reals.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Thanks! That means a lot to me, for reals.

You're very welcome.