Bullying - how far can you go to defend from it?

[Jordi]

Wow! I'm really perplexed by the amount of people condoning this crime. From what I'm reading here the father shot the first boy in the arm after he turned back towards him. That doesn't sound too threatening to me (not yet requiring drastic self defence), but I wasn't there so I'm willing to let that slide because he only shot him in the arm. After this his actions become extremely questionable, because he was only shooting wounded and/or injured kids. This has absolutely nothing to do with self defense and sounds to me like a simple act of revenge for all the stuff these kids did to him, his family and society. While their actions were very bad, they didn't deserve a death penalty, especially not if being judged and executed by anyone other than the law. Being a hunter and having an 'instinct' is no excuse by the way. I would rather consider it grounds for outlawing hunting if you believe it to breed trigger-happy maniacs.

I can understand why the guy did it, but that doesn't make it right.

 

[black lincon]

I'm all for self-defence, but shooting without warning when you already would have the upper hand, let alone shooting him while he's already running away and wounded...
They would have had firing weapons for that to constitute as self-defence.

I don't know the self defense laws in Sweden but in the US you have to feel that there is a "clear and present danger to yourself or others." being phycological tortured has been used before in American courts to justify killing the people who were doing the torturing. although like I said I really don't know the self defense laws in Sweden, although I think what he did was fine, a bit extreme in regards to the leader but well within his rights.

 

[Jenova65]

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

Though I don't believe he should have hunted down the teen he killed, they were way past the point of bullying when they were on his property with weapons. That is intent to do harm.

Dead! A 15/16 year old is dead! He was already avenged when he shot the child in the arm, surely? That is my point.

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

It's a guy that has terrorized your family for the longest time, and then he shows up at your house to take revenge on you. You think you might want to defend yourself?

He didn't need to execute the kid, he should have restrained him after the first shot and called the cops. But as a hunter and gun owner, if people show up on my property that I know are hostile to me, I would do just what this guy did.

That again is my point, the first shot was at the very least, enough. A child is dead. The child might have been an asshole, but death? Community service or boot camp would have been suitable, not death.

15 Year olds are still kids?
Teenagers are very different from Children, He was a teenager, He was a **** nugget, He got what he deserved.

He was a child, and you do not know what his background was maybe he went home after school and got beaten by his dad, maybe he didn't, however by your standards - Bullying = death sentence, I respectfully disagree with you! Many teens are assholes, and go on to be better adults and make right the things they did when they were young!

 

[Jenova65]

Wow! I'm really perplexed by the amount of people condoning this crime. From what I'm reading here the father shot the first boy in the arm after he turned back towards him. That doesn't sound too threatening to me (not yet requiring drastic self defence), but I wasn't there so I'm willing to let that slide because he only shot him in the arm. After this his actions become extremely questionable, because he was only shooting wounded and/or injured kids. This has absolutely nothing to do with self defense and sounds to me like a simple act of revenge for all the stuff these kids did to him, his family and society. While their actions were very bad, they didn't deserve a death penalty, especially not if being judged and executed by anyone other than the law. Being a hunter and having an 'instinct' is no excuse by the way. I would rather consider it grounds for outlawing hunting if you believe it to breed trigger-happy maniacs.

I can understand why the guy did it, but that doesn't make it right.

Thank you, thought I was alone there for a minute!

 

[Jordi]

I don't know the self defense laws in Sweden but in the US you have to feel that there is a "clear and present danger to yourself or others." being phycological tortured has been used before in American courts to justify killing the people who were doing the torturing.

I'm not from the US (or Sweden) and this sounds really weird to me. I think bullying is not very severely punished by the (hopefully wise, impartial, independent, government-sanctioned) courts. However, if what you say is true then it is apparently fine for any victim to take the role of jury, judge and executioner and get away with it. That's just weird.

I can understand the part about defending yourself from clear and present danger, but to get back to the topic of this thread: after the first shot (in the kid's arm) it seemed like all danger was averted and it became all about retribution.

 

[josetaco]

I don't understand why is this an issue.
If some idiot comes to your home looking for trouble as far as any sane human being
is concerned let them do whatever it takes to remove the problem.
This sounds more like a problem I have found since moving to an urban area, from
growing up in rural area.
Everyone from an urban are expects someone else to take care of their problems.
Back home if bad shit comes knocking at the door your supposed to take care of it.
The police aren't superman they can't be everywhere, a person has to take care of
themselves at a certain point,and if your police who are civil servants give you shit
about taking care of your own problems than its time you go to your local goverment and
get new police officers.

 

[Eliam_Dar]

Went to highschool, someone tried to bully me since I was not from Buenos Aires the first day (I live there but I was born in another province) I presented my fist to his face, never got bullied again. Those city kids were really weak

 

[Deleted]

I would have gone to their house with the shotgun, but thats just me.

Can't stand people who think they're the top of the world.

Wait a sec, are you talking about the teens bringing a shotgun, or the father going to the teen's house with his shotgun?

OT - If a group of individuals has congregated on your property armed and you feel threatened for your and/or your family's life, you have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself. Does that mean you can shoot fleeing individuals in the back, well, I'd have to argue no, but still, it's easy to say and very hard to do given it would be hard for me to NOT shoot someone in the back in said circumstances.

The man go to the teenagers' houses with the shotgun.

 

[Docjrag]

100% Justified. If some kid ( Mentally retarded or not ) comes to my home and calls my house and says "We're outside now" I will oblige their threat. I will come outside and have a little chit chat over a cup of ass kicking. I don't live in Texas but, I hear they have this thing called "Castle -- Something or other" That states that if someone is on your property intending to do you harm you have all the right to find any means to neutralize the threat. I tip my hat to you Mr. Shotgun.

People can make the argument that he was young, they can make the argument that he was "slow" but the fact is that his family was in danger. Wouldn't you do the same?

 

[Borrowed Time]

*snip*

Then you need to clarify that. Your last statement clearly said that "executed for bullying" which it wasn't. It was executing for assault with a deadly weapon (at least here in the states). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault "assault may refer only to the threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force."

I don't know about you, but if a group of teens come onto my property, after putting my family through hell day in and day out, with a bunch of makeshift weapons, threatening my family, I'm going to be in a blind rage. It's easy to sit back and say "oh that's horrible, I would never do that", it's quite another scenario when you are the person defending yourself.

I never understood the whole "buck fever" mentality with hunting until I hunted myself. The adrenaline rush you get. The knowing that you have the power to take a life (no I don't hunt for sport, I hunt for meat, don't even try to start an argument about that crap [not directed at you Jenova65]} is incredibly exciting and sobering at the same time.

Heck, I just got done telling off a co-worker who regularly drinks/smokes pot and drives that he had better never get into an accident with me (statistic improbability, I know) or my wife or kids, and if he does, he better make sure I'm dead or incapacitated because though I know it's wrong, I'd have a very hard time not beating him to a bloody pulp. Crimes of passion happen because the logic portion of our brains sometimes are overwhelmed by the emotional portions, especially for individuals who have a very strong protective instinct, such as myself and quite a few other men. To not understand that is to choose to be oblivious to the fact that a huge number people are human (last time i checked) and ruled by more than just logic.

*snip*

Gotcha, I thought you meant the teens bring a shotgun. I could feel my rage meter rising. Glad I had you clarify. hehe =P

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

So hold on a tick .... he chased down the kid and shot him dead when he was clearly running away? How is it 'self-defence' to shoot a fleeing guy?

"He was running away to get guns and come back ... I swear ... he wasn't like 'Holy crap, man! You're nuts! Screw this!!', he was saying 'Just you wait till I get my 30-06 so I can blow your head off at 200 yards' ... I swear..."

All I know is that nobody in the town is ever going to look him in the eye, or come over his place for a cup of coffee. Hell ... if my car broke down infront of his place I'd rather abandon it then ask for some tools and help.

Hopefully the police atleast confiscate his lovely firearms.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

Hmm, i was with him until the chasing down and shooting dead part... Why, i could even justify the first shot, and even if he shot him again in the leg or something. I can understand punishment via pain, but not execution.

However, that's just more what I would do. I don't look down on anyone for doing that, they weren't given too much other choice.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Hmm, i was with him until the chasing down and shooting dead part... Why, i could even justify the first shot, and even if he shot him again in the leg or something. I can understand punishment via pain, but not execution.

However, that's just more what I would do. I don't look down on anyone for doing that, they weren't given too much other choice.

I don't know ... first shot ... maybe. They were provoking a response. Chasing a kid down and pumping a shell into him when he is clearly in need of help and poses no further threat to your life.

That requires pre-meditated thought, and a desire for vengeance, played out with a concious decision not with the intent to disable but to destroy an individual. That really should be lifting to murder. personally if I was the judge I'd have him sent to an institute for rehabilitation to make sure he is not a threat to society.

Besides ... people should only police themselves, not others. That's why we have cops It shouldn't be the aggravated party to deliver justice, but a representative of the judicial system.

I really dislike the idea of 'Vigilante Justice'. Simply because if you're personally wronged by someone, then you're kinda bias when you 'deliver justice'.

 

[Jenova65]

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

Though I don't believe he should have hunted down the teen he killed, they were way past the point of bullying when they were on his property with weapons. That is intent to do harm.

Dead! A 15/16 year old is dead! He was already avenged when he shot the child in the arm, surely? That is my point.

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

It's a guy that has terrorized your family for the longest time, and then he shows up at your house to take revenge on you. You think you might want to defend yourself?

He didn't need to execute the kid, he should have restrained him after the first shot and called the cops. But as a hunter and gun owner, if people show up on my property that I know are hostile to me, I would do just what this guy did.

That again is my point, the first shot was at the very least, enough. A child is dead. The child might have been an asshole, but death? Community service or boot camp would have been suitable, not death.

15 Year olds are still kids?
Teenagers are very different from Children, He was a teenager, He was a **** nugget, He got what he deserved.

He was a child, and you do not know what his background was maybe he went home after school and got beaten by his dad, maybe he didn't, however by your standards - Bullying = death sentence, I respectfully disagree with you! Many teens are assholes, and go on to be better adults and make right the things they did when they were young!

He wasn't a child, he was a teenager.
It doesn't matter if he was abused by his father or not, you don't harass a mentally challenged kid, then go to his house during the middle of the night to beat the living shit out of him.
That kind of Bullying is just too far. I have an immense hatred for bullying. I stand by my point, he deserved what he got.

Teenagers are children in the eyes of the law! He was a child, he was an asshole, but yet again a death sentence was overkill, or we are just living in many of the games we play and if people can shoot someone dead for that sort of crime we are inches away from anarchy. I merely disagree with you is all, I hate bullying too my 18 year old son was pushed in front of a car by his bully when he was at school, I totally felt hatred for the kid, but kill him? No. We just disagree on this, simple.

*snip*

Then you need to clarify that. Your last statement clearly said that "executed for bullying" which it wasn't. It was executing for assault with a deadly weapon (at least here in the states). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault "assault may refer only to the threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force."

I don't know about you, but if a group of teens come onto my property, after putting my family through hell day in and day out, with a bunch of makeshift weapons, threatening my family, I'm going to be in a blind rage. It's easy to sit back and say "oh that's horrible, I would never do that", it's quite another scenario when you are the person defending yourself.

I never understood the whole "buck fever" mentality with hunting until I hunted myself. The adrenaline rush you get. The knowing that you have the power to take a life (no I don't hunt for sport, I hunt for meat, don't even try to start an argument about that crap [not directed at you Jenova65]} is incredibly exciting and sobering at the same time.

Heck, I just got done telling off a co-worker who regularly drinks/smokes pot and drives that he had better never get into an accident with me (statistic improbability, I know) or my wife or kids, and if he does, he better make sure I'm dead or incapacitated because though I know it's wrong, I'd have a very hard time not beating him to a bloody pulp. Crimes of passion happen because the logic portion of our brains sometimes are overwhelmed by the emotional portions, especially for individuals who have a very strong protective instinct, such as myself and quite a few other men. To not understand that is to choose to be oblivious to the fact that a huge number people are human (last time i checked) and ruled by more than just logic.

*snip*

Gotcha, I thought you meant the teens bring a shotgun. I could feel my rage meter rising. Glad I had you clarify. hehe =P

I don't live in the US guns are illegal here. And he was executed. The first shot to the arm was more than enough he was then helpless and running away (it almost becomes cold blooded at that point) Also guns pretty much trump most farm tools. But my point wasn't that they were wrong for defending themselves only the shot that killed.

 

[Jenova65]

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

Though I don't believe he should have hunted down the teen he killed, they were way past the point of bullying when they were on his property with weapons. That is intent to do harm.

Dead! A 15/16 year old is dead! He was already avenged when he shot the child in the arm, surely? That is my point.

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

It's a guy that has terrorized your family for the longest time, and then he shows up at your house to take revenge on you. You think you might want to defend yourself?

He didn't need to execute the kid, he should have restrained him after the first shot and called the cops. But as a hunter and gun owner, if people show up on my property that I know are hostile to me, I would do just what this guy did.

That again is my point, the first shot was at the very least, enough. A child is dead. The child might have been an asshole, but death? Community service or boot camp would have been suitable, not death.

15 Year olds are still kids?
Teenagers are very different from Children, He was a teenager, He was a **** nugget, He got what he deserved.

He was a child, and you do not know what his background was maybe he went home after school and got beaten by his dad, maybe he didn't, however by your standards - Bullying = death sentence, I respectfully disagree with you! Many teens are assholes, and go on to be better adults and make right the things they did when they were young!

He wasn't a child, he was a teenager.
It doesn't matter if he was abused by his father or not, you don't harass a mentally challenged kid, then go to his house during the middle of the night to beat the living shit out of him.
That kind of Bullying is just too far. I have an immense hatred for bullying. I stand by my point, he deserved what he got.

Teenagers are children in the eyes of the law! He was a child, he was an asshole, but yet again a death sentence was overkill, or we are just living in many of the games we play and if people can shoot someone dead for that sort of crime we are inches away from anarchy. I merely disagree with you is all, I hate bullying too my 18 year old son was pushed in front of a car by his bully when he was at school, I totally felt hatred for the kid, but kill him? No. We just disagree on this, simple.

*snip*

Then you need to clarify that. Your last statement clearly said that "executed for bullying" which it wasn't. It was executing for assault with a deadly weapon (at least here in the states). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault "assault may refer only to the threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force."

I don't know about you, but if a group of teens come onto my property, after putting my family through hell day in and day out, with a bunch of makeshift weapons, threatening my family, I'm going to be in a blind rage. It's easy to sit back and say "oh that's horrible, I would never do that", it's quite another scenario when you are the person defending yourself.

I never understood the whole "buck fever" mentality with hunting until I hunted myself. The adrenaline rush you get. The knowing that you have the power to take a life (no I don't hunt for sport, I hunt for meat, don't even try to start an argument about that crap [not directed at you Jenova65]} is incredibly exciting and sobering at the same time.

Heck, I just got done telling off a co-worker who regularly drinks/smokes pot and drives that he had better never get into an accident with me (statistic improbability, I know) or my wife or kids, and if he does, he better make sure I'm dead or incapacitated because though I know it's wrong, I'd have a very hard time not beating him to a bloody pulp. Crimes of passion happen because the logic portion of our brains sometimes are overwhelmed by the emotional portions, especially for individuals who have a very strong protective instinct, such as myself and quite a few other men. To not understand that is to choose to be oblivious to the fact that a huge number people are human (last time i checked) and ruled by more than just logic.

*snip*

Gotcha, I thought you meant the teens bring a shotgun. I could feel my rage meter rising. Glad I had you clarify. hehe =P

I don't live in the US guns are illegal here. And he was executed. The first shot to the arm was more than enough he was then helpless and running away (it almost becomes cold blooded at that point) Also guns pretty much trump most farm tools. But my point wasn't that they were wrong for defending themselves only the shot that killed.

Child in the eyes of the law...
He is a teenager in my eyes, and most others eyes aswell except for yours/
A 15 year old is not a fucking child.

There is no need to be offensive. I have been very polite and you are just being rude. He is (in Britain) as far as the law is concerned a child (and since I live in Britain, he is a child in my opinion) What he certainly isn't is an adult.
I will not reply to any more quotes you make on this if you continue to be offensive, it is pointless.

 

[historybuff]

Well, yeah. Tell you what--that's what would happen around where I live. If the police don't do their damn jobs, citizens do it for them.

Props to that guy.