Burn the witch!!!... Justified?

[ohgodalex]

I totally thought this thread was going to be about using mollies on the witch in Left4Dead, and whether it was justified, or a waste of an item.

I would argue that it's a waste. Walk by the witch, people. Not that hard.

OT: I guess you'd really have to evaluate these "burn the witch" scenarios on a case-by-case basis, but I don't mind lazy storytelling in my RPGs for the most part. A compelling main storyline is helpful, but if I'm just supposed to know that a character is being persecuted for some reason, that's a good way to set things up.

 

[FactualSquirrel]

OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.

According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.

([sub]Don't tell them the rest were drowned.. hem hem. Wink.)[/sub]

lulz, I've never understood why they couldn't do something else instead of seeing if they fucking float....

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

That sounds about right, I guess the burning ones were the most well known so everyone ended up thinking that was the main.

Yup, just another fact that you will never use outside of internet forums while being pedantic...

With another being that most, if not all, of the witches caught were not witches at all. Think about it, if the witches were as frigtheningly all powerful and destructive as they were described as, how did they capture and/or kill them? The so called Witches could of just killed them with black magic or something. The Witches would most likely be smart enough to know that playing the innocent card would not work since most of the Villagers thought patterns most likely followed "Well, she seems innocent enough, and she didn't do any magic to prevent her capture... Screw it, Kill her with Shovels!" so why wouldn't the Witch at least escape?

 

[lacktheknack]

According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.

Salem only burned one witch? well that reputation is blown out of proportion.

Weren't most of them drowned?

But I understand what you're saying, OP. I don't think it's a given that "magic is good, anti-magic is bad".

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I have often wondered about is; in RPGs where there's a good choice and an evil choice (generally Bioware games) the option of exterminating any group to prevent possible out breaks of uncontrollable evil the killing option is always wrong. However, the main reason it's portrayed as evil is because games never have the guts to tell you "By the why, because you assumed you could save these people, everyone else was killed in the ensuing event". Look at the mages tower in Dragon Age: Origins; they're slowly being corrupted into demons and turned into psychotic killing machines. Yet you're perfectly capable of being generally nice and saving as many as possible.

This isn't a perfect example because: A) If you kill them all people accept it as being necessary, and B) You get given a magic scroll designed to prevent exactly the kind of corruption that's occurring. But you get the picture.

According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.

Salem only burned one witch? well that reputation is blown out of proportion.

Well for a start, the Salem witch trials were after the middle ages (February 1692-May 1693). Secondly the (accused) witches were hanged, not burned.

 

[TheScarecrow]

-snip-

First may I say, excellent topic.

I'm going to start on the Warhammer bit as I'm still trying to get around the rest of it.
I'm also a massive Warhammer fan so I can use my knowledge of the OLD World in my argument.

The reason the Witch-hunters etc tend towards killing first and asking questions later is down to how powerful an un-checked magic-user can get, especially if the Forces of Chaos, or anyone else, get to them. A single unknown magic user in the Empire influenced or trained by Chaos could summon in a whole host of demons that could cause serious problems for the Empire, so they have to be sought out and either executed or sent packing to one of the Colleges of Magic.

Now. It could be possible for an innocent to be put to the torch, they could have been framed or something, although many games may encourage butchering the mob rather than explaining the situation to them or even pulling off a quick rescue and legging it.

I don't know about Dragon Age though. However if a rogue Mage represents a threat to the people or the State then it isn't exactly wrong to go after them. After all killing a single Mage to save a few hundred innocent civilians doesn't sound all that bad.
Keeping the legal ones in check isn't all that bad either.

I'm going to have to assume that legal ones get better access to spells, and if they suddenly turn upon everyone and start killing then it would be a problem and everyone would be angry as the State didn't keep them in line.

As to why a protagonist would jump in and save someone just because they are being burned well, I suppose to drive the story. But in most game you generally have to be the good guy that does this kind of stuff and believe in justice and rightousness and all that malarky and so would probably think about saving the person about to be burned. However, should she in fact turn out to be guilty, well then he's going to feel a bit foolish, if he gets to feel anything at all before the spells start.

Please excuse the copious amounts of text.

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

Well for a start, I'm the Salem witch trials

You are? I didn't know that was possible.

 

[Mr. GameBrain]

Oh great! Now you've mentioned witch burning I'm going to have to post this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU[/youtube]

OT: I can see your point, peasants in those days were pretty stupid, and thought anything beyond their limited spectrum of knowledge was witchcraft, so its understandable that to defend themselves, they would persecute and kill others.

In some areas of the world, these things still happen, but its still morally unacceptable in my books!

 

[Halceon]

I agree RyQ to a great extent. It's a cop-out. Even some real-world withc burnings must have been justified, though the mode of execution is gruesome beyond necessity. For example, the "witch" trades in poisons and has aided the demise of many a loved townsperson.

Only one thing - Empire witchhunters not being evil? Who gave you that silly idea? Warhammer is a world of Black vs Slightly less black. Everyone is reproachable in one way or another. And witchhunters have a track record of killing more innocents than chaos worshipping freaks, just to be safe.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Well for a start, I'm the Salem witch trials

You are? I didn't know that was possible.

Oh ha ha, bloody ha.

 

[Julianking93]

Sorry, what were we talking about?

 

[FactualSquirrel]

That sounds about right, I guess the burning ones were the most well known so everyone ended up thinking that was the main.

Yup, just another fact that you will never use outside of internet forums while being pedantic...

With another being that most, if not all, of the witches caught were not witches at all. Think about it, if the witches were as frigtheningly all powerful and destructive as they were described as, how did they capture and/or kill them? The so called Witches could of just killed them with black magic or something. The Witches would most likely be smart enough to know that playing the innocent card would not work since most of the Villagers thought patterns most likely followed "Well, she seems innocent enough, and she didn't do any magic to prevent her capture... Screw it, Kill her with Shovels!" so why wouldn't the Witch at least escape?

Well, it's extremely doubtful that any of them were witches, as 1) witches don't exist and 2) there were only a few incidents of the subjects being found to be witches by floating.

And gguess what, they were put on wooden chairs.

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

2) there were only a few incidents of the subjects being found to be witches by floating.

And guess what, they were put on wooden chairs.

Floating? When was floating mentioned, except when compared to wood?

 

[Break]

Missing the point somewhat. The reason that rampaging crowds with torches and pitchforks are unilaterally portrayed as evil is because they represent the horrors of mob mentality, that tendency for people to do extreme and horrifying things when the responsibility is removed from them. Regardless of what the victim has done, massing a lynch mob is an "evil" act, and rescuing the "witch" is better than leaving them to die without finding out their crime. At the very least, if you're the protagonist, you have a better chance of executing the "witch" in a sensible and humane manner, if needs be.

Well, you're still completely right in that it's lazy writing with a stale binary morality system, but y'know. Your reasoning could be better. .

 

[FactualSquirrel]

Floating? When was floating mentioned, except when compared to wood?

That was a test for if you were a witch, they would tie you to a chair and if you float you're a witch.

 

[deathmetalfan]

As Venom once said 'Don't burn the witch, the ways of hell aren't wrong. Don't burn the witch, let them brew their song!'

 

[RyQ_TMC]

-snip-

First may I say, excellent topic.

Thank you.

I'm going to start on the Warhammer bit as I'm still trying to get around the rest of it.
I'm also a massive Warhammer fan so I can use my knowledge of the OLD World in my argument.

The reason the Witch-hunters etc tend towards killing first and asking questions later is down to how powerful an un-checked magic-user can get, especially if the Forces of Chaos, or anyone else, get to them. A single unknown magic user in the Empire influenced or trained by Chaos could summon in a whole host of demons that could cause serious problems for the Empire, so they have to be sought out and either executed or sent packing to one of the Colleges of Magic.

Now. It could be possible for an innocent to be put to the torch, they could have been framed or something, although many games may encourage butchering the mob rather than explaining the situation to them or even pulling off a quick rescue and legging it.

I don't know about Dragon Age though. However if a rogue Mage represents a threat to the people or the State then it isn't exactly wrong to go after them. After all killing a single Mage to save a few hundred innocent civilians doesn't sound all that bad.
Keeping the legal ones in check isn't all that bad either.

I'm going to have to assume that legal ones get better access to spells, and if they suddenly turn upon everyone and start killing then it would be a problem and everyone would be angry as the State didn't keep them in line.

The solution to the mage problem in DA:O is similar to Warhammer's Colleges of Magic - if you don't belong to one, you are Mabari food. The "legal ones" don't really have inherently better access to spells (although they do have free access to a vast library), rather they are effectively locked up (you need permission from the senior mage to even leave the tower) so that they can be easy to eradicate if a demon possesses one of them and goes on a rampage.

Also, good to see a Warhammer fan here. Last time I made a thread about WFRP all I got were replies in the vein of "WTF are you talking about?"

As to why a protagonist would jump in and save someone just because they are being burned well, I suppose to drive the story. But in most game you generally have to be the good guy that does this kind of stuff and believe in justice and rightousness and all that malarky and so would probably think about saving the person about to be burned. However, should she in fact turn out to be guilty, well then he's going to feel a bit foolish, if he gets to feel anything at all before the spells start.

But here we go: I think that "justice and rightousness" does not essentially mean "always save the damsel in distress" in those settings. Many of the game/book/film-worlds are settings where death is a daily occurence, and a common penalty for many crimes, even ones considered "petty" nowadays. Whereas it's treated as such in all too many stories.

Please excuse the copious amounts of text.

Don't be sorry, as you might have noticed, I do the same.

I agree RyQ to a great extent. It's a cop-out. Even some real-world withc burnings must have been justified, though the mode of execution is gruesome beyond necessity. For example, the "witch" trades in poisons and has aided the demise of many a loved townsperson.

Only one thing - Empire witchhunters not being evil? Who gave you that silly idea? Warhammer is a world of Black vs Slightly less black. Everyone is reproachable in one way or another. And witchhunters have a track record of killing more innocents than chaos worshipping freaks, just to be safe.

By "not evil" I meant "not outright condemned by the author" rather than "morally right".

 

[hittite]

Two things spring to mind from this.
1. Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. Some sources say this was on charges of Witchcraft, but they're wrong. The actual charge was wearing men's clothing.

2. In Baldur's Gate 2, you find an angry mob in Amn about to burn a Drow. She has committed absolutely no crimes, although she is Lawful Evil. They just want to kill her because she's a Drow. It's more or less impossible to convince them it's a bad idea short of killing them. I forget what sort of alignment modifiers you get for saving her, but I just thought it was an interesting twist on the "burn the witch" scenario.

 

[A Pious Cultist]

According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.

Television: About one one billionth more trustworthy than the internet and we know how trustworthy that is.