"But it's not natural!"

[FalloutJack]

Nature? Humans have intellect over instinct, which defies nature as is, but that is OUR nature. Choice and thought is our privilege, ergo all that comes of it must be natural.

 

[y1fella]

"It's not natural."

This has been as the basis of many arguments (especially regarding homosexuality) and, for me at least, seems very hypocritical and sometimes even completely wrong (bear with me, I'll try and explain).

Humans 'defy nature' every single day, millions of people are alive who would have otherwise died if not for that pesky medical science. We fly hundreds of thousands of miles every year, what? You thought only animals with wings could fly? Poppycock! We've shown that blasted pidgeon who's boss! We grow food (plant and otherwise) in quantities far beyond what is capable in a natural environment. I'm sure many of you can offer other examples of 'defying nature'.

Now, to the other part of my argument. Everything we are and everything we will ever be is because of nature. We are never 'defying nature' because nature allowed humans to develop to a point where we can do all the things stated above, 'defying nature' would mean that we could simply ignore elements of it, which we all know is impossible. We can't ignore gravity, no matter how hard we want to. We adapt to nature, we develop the tools necessary to get around these things, which is wholly permitted by nature.

I know this argument doesn't seem particularly refined, and you're welcome to criticise my thought process where you see fit. What is your opinion on the topic of 'defying nature'?

Mind you by the argument of "it's not natural" you could justify: sodomy, rape, murder, pedophilia, genocide and much much more.
All mentioned things can be found in Nature. But that doesn't mean that it's right. Homosexuality being in nature means nothing in my mind.
neither does anything else being in nature but homosexuality was the example you used.

Our social rules are just as much a product of nature as everything else we do. Society cannot function well if everyone is fearful for their lives, thus we create rules and laws that the vast majority of us follow. Killing people within a community harms it. Being gay doesn't.

Don't get me wrong I hold nothing against homosexuals. I'm just saying arguments about what is and isn't natural hold no weight because nature is pretty fucked up.
we need to base our rules off what we believe. Then once you have those rules you need to follow them not pick and choose. That's why I respect fundamental Christians more than compromising. Even if I still disagree with them.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

The only person who'd I'd respect after using the arguement "It's unnatural!" are those who don't use human technology at all.

Otherwise they're just being a hyprocrit.

Of course I'm all for defying nature. It's what made us humans great and it's what will continue to. Sticking to the old ways simply because they are the old ways isn't what will keep humanity moving in any direction.

 

[Burningsok]

With homosexuality, it really is an abnormality. Our basic instincts are to survive and reproduce. Now, homosexuality isn't anything for people to be afraid of. Yes it's abnormal, but it shouldn't be seen as the end of us all. It's like a disorder, but without the mental handicap. Personally, I see it as much a big of a deal as someone with ADD or nearsightedness.

**blinks** Um, no, it's not.

As mentioned, homosexuality occurs in nature, outside of any society. There is nothing abnormal about it, nor is it a disorder. That's the kind of crap they said 40 years ago, and it was offensive then.

Being gay is not abnormal, and it is not a disorder. Please don't say offensive things like that.

It certainly does occur in nature, you're right.

Look, I have no idea what it can be considered. Just to be clear regarding homosexuality, abnormal does NOT = problem.

btw, I've got a friend who's gay, and I've had conversations similar to this more then a few times with him.

Sorry if I offend you.

 

[GotMalkAvian]

My theory is that nothing isn't natural. If it happens, then it's a part of the natural order one way or the other. Anyone who says "it isn't natural" really means "it doesn't fit into the way I personally see the world."

 

[MasterChief892039]

Any argument against homosexuality and gay marriage is going to be weak because they are all founded on traditional thinking. Essentially the difference between someone who supports homosexuality and someone who doesn't its the former listens to his science teacher and the latter listens to his grandparents.

That was a lovely, concise summation of the homosexual debate.

OT: Pretty much nothing people do is natural. Even when one uses the phrase "it's just human nature", they're usually referring to culturally influenced behaviours and practices instead of biological instinct.

 

[IzisviAziria]

With homosexuality, it really is an abnormality. Our basic instincts are to survive and reproduce. Now, homosexuality isn't anything for people to be afraid of. Yes it's abnormal, but it shouldn't be seen as the end of us all. It's like a disorder, but without the mental handicap. Personally, I see it as much a big of a deal as someone with ADD or nearsightedness.

**blinks** Um, no, it's not.

As mentioned, homosexuality occurs in nature, outside of any society. There is nothing abnormal about it, nor is it a disorder. That's the kind of crap they said 40 years ago, and it was offensive then.

Being gay is not abnormal, and it is not a disorder. Please don't say offensive things like that.

It certainly does occur in nature, you're right.

Look, I have no idea what it can be considered. Just to be clear regarding homosexuality, abnormal does NOT = problem.

btw, I've got a friend who's gay, and I've had conversations similar to this more then a few times with him.

Sorry if I offend you.

It's not even abnormal. It's only abnormal in Western Society. In Ancient Greece, the highest form of love was between two men. Alexander the Great had a male lover, which he was with more often than his wife. Native civilizations all over the earth had homosexual customs before Western civilizations imperialized their lands. Just because society has told you it's abnormal, doesn't mean it is.

 

[The Apothecarry]

Cloning meat...seriously, don't do it. Or just don't tell us...

 

[Burningsok]

With homosexuality, it really is an abnormality. Our basic instincts are to survive and reproduce. Now, homosexuality isn't anything for people to be afraid of. Yes it's abnormal, but it shouldn't be seen as the end of us all. It's like a disorder, but without the mental handicap. Personally, I see it as much a big of a deal as someone with ADD or nearsightedness.

**blinks** Um, no, it's not.

As mentioned, homosexuality occurs in nature, outside of any society. There is nothing abnormal about it, nor is it a disorder. That's the kind of crap they said 40 years ago, and it was offensive then.

Being gay is not abnormal, and it is not a disorder. Please don't say offensive things like that.

It certainly does occur in nature, you're right.

Look, I have no idea what it can be considered. Just to be clear regarding homosexuality, abnormal does NOT = problem.

btw, I've got a friend who's gay, and I've had conversations similar to this more then a few times with him.

Sorry if I offend you.

It's not even abnormal. It's only abnormal in Western Society. In Ancient Greece, the highest form of love was between two men. Alexander the Great had a male lover, which he was with more often than his wife. Native civilizations all over the earth had homosexual customs before Western civilizations imperialized their lands. Just because society has told you it's abnormal, doesn't mean it is.

Hmm, good point. I completely forgot about the Greeks.

 

[Burningsok]

I like this video most of all when it comes to certain theroies about homosexuality

lol, well this definitely answers my questions. And It's Don LaFontaine

I wish he was still alive

 

[HardkorSB]

Here's the thing:
Humans are a part of nature therefore everything they do is natural. Separating humans from nature is just stupid and creating something that wasn't there before is not "defying nature".

 

[dex-dex]

I like this video most of all when it comes to certain theroies about homosexuality

lol, well this definitely answers my questions. And It's Don LaFontaine

I wish he was still alive

holy crap I never noticed!
and I too wish he was still alive.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Besides, homosexuality is natural. It happens in other animals too (I know for a fact that down at Slimbridge wildlife reserve they have a pair of gay flamingos).

Anyway, there's always a counter argument:

Beer is not natural. Beer is awesome. Unnatural=awesome?

 

[Jegsimmons]

my argument used to be "Screw nature, what has it ever done for me?"

but i think thats a better argument.

 

[Keith Keiser]

Only that which you cannot do is unnatural. I heard a famous philosopher said something like that.

what was his name?

It might have been Friedrich Nietzsche. If you knew and could share who it really was or what's the correct quote I'd appreciate it.