But there ARE great Female game characters!!......
- Thread starter GrizzlerBorno
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Haven't played Borderlands. I am inclined to agree with Joanna Dark (the original Perfect Dark)...but Jill and Ayame...hmm. First of all they are co-protagonists (Chris/ Rikimaru)...but how much spoken dialogue do they get that actually reveals anything substantial about their character? In the end....what do you really know about them? It's been a while since I last played those games...so it's all rather blurry.Scorched_Cascade said:
Can you tell me of instances where Jill/ Ayame noticeably showed emotions and/ or spoke their minds...that you could reasonably claim they are "this or that kind of person"?
If you won't remember them then they clearly aren't "great".GrizzlerBorno said:
More playable females. Y'know, protagonists.GrizzlerBorno said:
Yes, there are female protagonists out there. I know. But let's face it, they are a tiny minority when compared to the legions of athletic white brown haired 22-35-year-old males. And once you filter out the shitty ones (goodbye Ayumi, goodbye Lightning etc) you are left with an awfully small crop.
*facepalm*GrizzlerBorno said:
That, my dear sir, is what is known as completely missing the point.
(Also, 70% my arse. Maybe if you play nothing but FPSs.)
...
EDIT: It occurs to me that this discussion is always doomed to fail on the Escapist forums for the simple reason that 95% of us are guys.
when people say "truly great female characters" they mean core characters (those that are with you throughout the game) with depth (eg not constantly talking about some guy or wanting sex, ect.) and not just following a stereotype.
just about all characters are following some stereotype, guys included, and its getting very difficult to find female characters who are respectable from start to finish and dont follow a herd.
just about all characters are following some stereotype, guys included, and its getting very difficult to find female characters who are respectable from start to finish and dont follow a herd.
Yeah you're right. That IS one of the reasons she's so great: sexy...but not JUST or PRIMARILY sexy.GrizzlerBorno said:
Maybe it's like this? The Longest Journey (1999)->Dreamfall: The Longest Journey (2006)-> .....(2013)? I don't know...but DAMN I can't wait for that sequel. I'm starved for some good character writing.
I would've said Alyx Vance if Valve hadn't turned her into Gordon's assistent in Episode 1 and 2. Especially in Episode 2 where Eli Vance basically presents his daughter to Gordon on a silver platter: "Here, have my daughter. Impregnate her while you're at it."
I don't really know why women get special treatment in games, because I for the love of me can't come up with too many well developed male game characters either. It's probably because female characters get looked down on way more on their exagurated gender features then male characters do.
I don't really know why women get special treatment in games, because I for the love of me can't come up with too many well developed male game characters either. It's probably because female characters get looked down on way more on their exagurated gender features then male characters do.
How is Lightning a bad character?Zhukov said:
Let's put your biases aside for a little, and examine her characterization.
We know some of her past. We know she assumes an alias because she don't want to accept something in the past. We know she's a tough soldier. She cares deeply for her sister. And she is characterized mainly by her leadership.
Except that for most of the game, it's her relationship with Hope that truly defines her.
She was reluctant to accept it, but she had come to care greatly for Hope. She's a terrible mother figure for him, but then who could be under such circumstance?
If anything, Lightning is a shining beacon of a great female character. Her story is deep, her emotions complex--she's by no means a cardboard character.
She's also a mother, to Hope, and to an extent Vanille. Hope wouldn't have been able to attach himself to a man like he did Lightning. She truly cannot be substituted for a man.
Like I said--if you want a good, strong, realistic (as realistic as one can be in a game anyway) female character, look to the East. Over yonder, they don't care about letting you assign stat points, or letting you mess with a face slider. They give you a fixed appearance, and they give their characters background, motives, and emotion, simply because that is the meaning of RPG over there.
the problem is in the numbers of REAL human female characters VS token sex symbol females that are rampant. (I'm willing to bet that I can find one bad example of a female character for every good female character that anyone can mention)
the super macho cold women (that I have yet to find in real life BTW) also get on my nerves couse a truly strong female character knows what she looks like and behaves acoringly
look at the first couple of Tomb Raider games Lara knew that she was sexy and she was usualy vaguely flirtacios towards male characters but she was smart arthetic a knew her way around a gun and was a good female character (it's a true shame what marketing id to her afterwards but that's another story)
-Samus (Metroid: Other M) (<.< .... did you play metroid other M they butchered the character in any other metroid game she's actualy a REALY good character so she's countered by herself XD)
-Bayonetta (Felicia darkstalker (although Bayonetta is a good example of a sexy and strong character she's sexy and she knows it)
-Lara Croft ( Ivy from soul calibur)
-Nariko (Heavenly Sword) ( whoever the lead in X-blades was)
-Joanna Dark (Perfect Dark) (Morrigan from darkstalkers)
-Lilith (Borderlands) (yuna in FFX-2 (seriously FTW happened in those two years(but it's still a good game BTW))
-Jill Valentine (Resident Evil) ( the girls of DOA(now here are a lot of token sex symbols against one good female))
-Ayame (Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven) (Rayne from BloodRayne)
the super macho cold women (that I have yet to find in real life BTW) also get on my nerves couse a truly strong female character knows what she looks like and behaves acoringly
look at the first couple of Tomb Raider games Lara knew that she was sexy and she was usualy vaguely flirtacios towards male characters but she was smart arthetic a knew her way around a gun and was a good female character (it's a true shame what marketing id to her afterwards but that's another story)
-Samus (Metroid: Other M) (<.< .... did you play metroid other M they butchered the character in any other metroid game she's actualy a REALY good character so she's countered by herself XD)
-Bayonetta (Felicia darkstalker (although Bayonetta is a good example of a sexy and strong character she's sexy and she knows it)
-Lara Croft ( Ivy from soul calibur)
-Nariko (Heavenly Sword) ( whoever the lead in X-blades was)
-Joanna Dark (Perfect Dark) (Morrigan from darkstalkers)
-Lilith (Borderlands) (yuna in FFX-2 (seriously FTW happened in those two years(but it's still a good game BTW))
-Jill Valentine (Resident Evil) ( the girls of DOA(now here are a lot of token sex symbols against one good female))
-Ayame (Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven) (Rayne from BloodRayne)
hehe. Yeah, good point. Always wonder if the commentariat really play games sometimes..
Off the top of my head:
-Madison in Heavy Rain. A bit juvenile, but sometimes act older than her age. The entire "journalist writing stories inside her head while talking" spiel is pretty good.
-Ashley in Mass Effect. The most butch character in the entire game. And they really do go into why she is that way in the game. Deep story-telling that Bioware happens to achieve once in a while.
-Kreia in The Sith Lords. Perhaps the best side-character in any video-game. Obsidian used the old lady appearance angle carefully, and wrote a character that is definitively a woman, but also strong without being presented as an archtype. Which means that she has a background and reasoning that makes her likeable, even if she is a terrifying character.
-Chloe in Uncharted 2. It's not often you see a female character with believable character weaknesses. Either they are simply passive, or they are artificially aggressive. But - apart from being unnaturally beautiful, and voiced by Claudia Black (who can make "good morning" sound like an invitation to go to bed) - she's a real character with much more fleshed out background and motivation than, for example, Drake.
-Ariel in Soul Reaver and the Legacy of Kain series - Raziel confronts her in SR2 over her fate and her existence as a wraith, how she condemns Kain for being selfish while still clinging on to undeath herself, etc. - Ariel is another interesting character that exists and is female, without her sex being important for her character.. but instead for the role she sees herself as having inherited. That type of story-telling is what makes for good drama.
Imo - the problem isn't that there are no believable female characters in games. It's that actual believable female characters fail to register with the "console-crowd" and the typical game-reviewer. Just like story-telling in general, or devices used in games that are common to entertainment media, or the story-telling drivers that are unique. But most of all, it's just that subject-matter that doesn't immediately "resonate" is something that tends to be "forgotten" about. By reviewers, by "gamers" - and sadly, also by developers, and commentariat who should know better (hello, Extra Credits).
Off the top of my head:
-Madison in Heavy Rain. A bit juvenile, but sometimes act older than her age. The entire "journalist writing stories inside her head while talking" spiel is pretty good.
-Ashley in Mass Effect. The most butch character in the entire game. And they really do go into why she is that way in the game. Deep story-telling that Bioware happens to achieve once in a while.
-Kreia in The Sith Lords. Perhaps the best side-character in any video-game. Obsidian used the old lady appearance angle carefully, and wrote a character that is definitively a woman, but also strong without being presented as an archtype. Which means that she has a background and reasoning that makes her likeable, even if she is a terrifying character.
-Chloe in Uncharted 2. It's not often you see a female character with believable character weaknesses. Either they are simply passive, or they are artificially aggressive. But - apart from being unnaturally beautiful, and voiced by Claudia Black (who can make "good morning" sound like an invitation to go to bed) - she's a real character with much more fleshed out background and motivation than, for example, Drake.
-Ariel in Soul Reaver and the Legacy of Kain series - Raziel confronts her in SR2 over her fate and her existence as a wraith, how she condemns Kain for being selfish while still clinging on to undeath herself, etc. - Ariel is another interesting character that exists and is female, without her sex being important for her character.. but instead for the role she sees herself as having inherited. That type of story-telling is what makes for good drama.
Imo - the problem isn't that there are no believable female characters in games. It's that actual believable female characters fail to register with the "console-crowd" and the typical game-reviewer. Just like story-telling in general, or devices used in games that are common to entertainment media, or the story-telling drivers that are unique. But most of all, it's just that subject-matter that doesn't immediately "resonate" is something that tends to be "forgotten" about. By reviewers, by "gamers" - and sadly, also by developers, and commentariat who should know better (hello, Extra Credits).
Well designed JRPGS often have great female characters. As my example I will mention Tales of Symphonia, Skies od Arcadia and Tales of Vesperia. Those 3 games got quite big parties of characters with different personalities. All of them got their flaws and good sides, some got their humourous sides as well. The women are no different than the men on that point. The games are all well designed, and every character fits into the story.
There's also Samus which is probably the most popular female character of all time, though it took some time before anyone actually knew she was a female... Still she is the main character of one of the most popular old school game series out there.
The reason there might seem to be a lack is that big titles usually lack a female main character because they're advertised for men, or rather boys... or men that just wont grow up. Female gamers have been thought of as a myth by so many, the game companies haven't concentrated on making the games more feminine.
There's also Samus which is probably the most popular female character of all time, though it took some time before anyone actually knew she was a female... Still she is the main character of one of the most popular old school game series out there.
The reason there might seem to be a lack is that big titles usually lack a female main character because they're advertised for men, or rather boys... or men that just wont grow up. Female gamers have been thought of as a myth by so many, the game companies haven't concentrated on making the games more feminine.
I always liked Jade from Beyond Good and Evil.
I can't think of any instances in the game where she couldn't be a bloke. I guess the caring for all the kids thing would seem a little creepier, but it's not crucial to the story that it's a woman taking care of them.
I'm not saying all female characters should be like this. I'm just saying it's what I like about Jade.
Just in case, I should point out I haven't absolutely finished the game since the last boss is too hard for me. Even if there is some extraordinarily feminine thing she does in the ending, my point of a lot of her traits being applicable to a dude still stands.
EDIT:
Just noticed Jade's already been brought up. Didn't notice, and I'm blaming it on lots of text with little paragraphing.
And my poor eyesight.
And being a bit dim.
I can't think of any instances in the game where she couldn't be a bloke. I guess the caring for all the kids thing would seem a little creepier, but it's not crucial to the story that it's a woman taking care of them.
I'm not saying all female characters should be like this. I'm just saying it's what I like about Jade.
Just in case, I should point out I haven't absolutely finished the game since the last boss is too hard for me. Even if there is some extraordinarily feminine thing she does in the ending, my point of a lot of her traits being applicable to a dude still stands.
EDIT:
Just noticed Jade's already been brought up. Didn't notice, and I'm blaming it on lots of text with little paragraphing.
And my poor eyesight.
And being a bit dim.
Talk about Ayame eh? I'd love to (disclaimer: this is all before Ubisoft made her into a ball-kicking stripper)Manji187 said:
Okay so this is where she gets interesting:
Tenchu 2 (The Prequel) she watches the Tatsumaru(the man she loves) commit suicide to atone for his sins. Distraught at the lack of the reconciliation she had hoped for she gives the Clan's sword to Rikimaru and considers joining Tatsumaru via suicide. She remembers a promise she made and vows "No more crying I've got to be tough now".
By the time of Wrath of Heaven:
The guy she loves is dead but that is not how she defines herself or is defined. By this game she is also the sole survivor of the Azuma ninja as Rikimaru (the male main character) is presumed dead. She has become very cold and detached due to the deaths of both her clan brother and her lover (Tatsumaru)but is still capabale of the more positive emotions. She protects her friend Princess Kiku and would lay down her life for her. She feels she has nothing left but her friendship and her duty.
She comes across an undead version of her lover at one point (in the Tenchu series nobody ever seems to just stay dead) and states "I'm sorry but I can't let you take that" and threatens him. Bearing in mind she was devastated when he died this is progress. She looses her composure only after he has left; no tears just an exhausted drop to her knees.
Ayame's reasons are always well thought out while Rikimaru just tends to end up killing people because he is told to. e.g mission 2 the corrupt merchant Ayame finds out that the merchant is lending to the villagers and then when they cant pay it back taking their daughters and so goes to punish him. Rikimaru seemingly goes there purely because the narrator tells him to.
I couldn't find any video clips because noone has just uploaded, them I trawled through a few let's play but they talked all over the scenes. As for Jill that can wait as I'm sure someone out there knows her better than I but she is a very pivotal character as the series progresses.
Define "great".
Memorable? Lara Croft.
Companionable? Alyx Vance.
Passionate? Scarlett from Venetica.
Combat-weathered? Jill Valentine.
Those are just examples, of course; there's many more. Point is, there ARE "great" female video game characters, but it depends on your personal definition and preference.
Memorable? Lara Croft.
Companionable? Alyx Vance.
Passionate? Scarlett from Venetica.
Combat-weathered? Jill Valentine.
Those are just examples, of course; there's many more. Point is, there ARE "great" female video game characters, but it depends on your personal definition and preference.
There are strong female characters, but few that i find to be "strong"
But i can only think of three out of the top of my head
first being Samus Aran, before other m fucked it up(it my opinion, other m doesn't exist or doesn't belong in the metroid series), i don' think i need to say much other than that.
But since no one else mentioned this, and I'm kind of old as is; the
second being, Lyndis from fire emblem from the GBA, she had a good story and was kickass and was a main character! I related to her and only though her throughout the main story, she was strong, but felt had rather feminine tone to it but hey, idk, maybe I'm crazy. At least that's what i think about the matter.
Also, probably the #1 female character for me would be Ellyham or Elly granted maybe she's not one of the hottest, but she's probably one of the more human like character in a video game i felt so far. If anyone has played Xenogears before, the game had an awesome story, and strong characters, Elly was no different. She felt human, and she wasn't a pushover either, this was probably the strongest female lead/character, in game i have ever seen, even the female counterpart or villaness, felt the same. it's too bad they never made a decent sequel.
But sadly i think most female characters are diminishing there hasn't been a decent female character that i could find relatable or believable other that these three. I have played final fantasy XIII, the female characters in that game felt like some of them were a copy and paste *cough Final fantasy VII* (just replace the genders, and you'll see what i mean) knock off, and i mean this about lighting specifically. however, if you disagree that's fine, it's just an opinion i have on the matter.
The character i do find attractive but found them rather distant, was faith from mirror's edge, its too bad faith wasn't worked on some more as character there could have been much more potential.
AS for mass effect, no comment, I didn't find them, to be as in depth, as these three sorry-but before you soil your panties just remember its an opinion.
Also i think that the problem is OP, that the video game industry is mostly run by males, so relating to their female counterparts doesn't work at times and sometimes gets in their way of what strong female character should be about. Though i think extra credits cover that fairly better than i could ever dream of doing.
But i can only think of three out of the top of my head
first being Samus Aran, before other m fucked it up(it my opinion, other m doesn't exist or doesn't belong in the metroid series), i don' think i need to say much other than that.
But since no one else mentioned this, and I'm kind of old as is; the
second being, Lyndis from fire emblem from the GBA, she had a good story and was kickass and was a main character! I related to her and only though her throughout the main story, she was strong, but felt had rather feminine tone to it but hey, idk, maybe I'm crazy. At least that's what i think about the matter.
Also, probably the #1 female character for me would be Ellyham or Elly granted maybe she's not one of the hottest, but she's probably one of the more human like character in a video game i felt so far. If anyone has played Xenogears before, the game had an awesome story, and strong characters, Elly was no different. She felt human, and she wasn't a pushover either, this was probably the strongest female lead/character, in game i have ever seen, even the female counterpart or villaness, felt the same. it's too bad they never made a decent sequel.
But sadly i think most female characters are diminishing there hasn't been a decent female character that i could find relatable or believable other that these three. I have played final fantasy XIII, the female characters in that game felt like some of them were a copy and paste *cough Final fantasy VII* (just replace the genders, and you'll see what i mean) knock off, and i mean this about lighting specifically. however, if you disagree that's fine, it's just an opinion i have on the matter.
The character i do find attractive but found them rather distant, was faith from mirror's edge, its too bad faith wasn't worked on some more as character there could have been much more potential.
AS for mass effect, no comment, I didn't find them, to be as in depth, as these three sorry-but before you soil your panties just remember its an opinion.
Also i think that the problem is OP, that the video game industry is mostly run by males, so relating to their female counterparts doesn't work at times and sometimes gets in their way of what strong female character should be about. Though i think extra credits cover that fairly better than i could ever dream of doing.