Buying my first gun.

[Stu35]

Americas homicide per capita in 2004 - 5.9
Britains homicide per capita in 2004 - 1.6

Homicide is a good example I think, because unlike "violent crime" it's generally more universally defined.

Context is important

US HPC in 1979: 9.8, in 2009 (When Obama took office and gun sales soared): 5.0, in 2010: 4.8

In UK in 2010 is 1.17, which is impressive but not much movement from 1.71 in 2000

The fact is: Homicides have been steadily declining in the US and have been for decades.

Alternately, Mexico's HPC (where civilian-owned firearms are heavily regulated) was 14 in 2000 (before FAF) and 15 in 2010, and Russia matches them (in 2010).

Also Switzerland (They hate this example) saw its PEAK in the first decade 2K at 1.19, and at 2010 is at 0.66

Finally Israel (Who seems to be getting into a fight with Palestine every other week and requires all able bodies to serve in the IDF) saw it's 1D peak in 2002 at 3.6

In short: That guns exist in a country matters a hell of a lot less than who has them.

I agree.

My argument was that America is more violent than Britain. I didn't say it was because of guns.

I'm very much on the fence when it comes to guns. I think there are more important things to deal with. There are so many other social and economic factors which need tackling imho.

snip

Keep believing that UK is safer if that makes you feel better.

I've already shown you evidence it is. Repeatedly.

 

[Malyc]

How much are you willing to spend?

up to 1k,

I want a decent enough handgun to at least compensate for my in experience

In that case, definitely go with a 1911 style handgun. Trigger is damned good, especially in the more expensive examples, parts are everywhere, you can buy kits to convert them to .22 for practice shooting, they feel good in the hand, and just look damned sexy.

*Is not COMPLETELY biased, owns a Springfield XD 9mm, just likes the 1911 better.

Here is the problem. He live in Australia and like most countries in the world the .45ACP isn't common. Only in American and former colonies like the Philippians use .45ACP. With that said he can get a 1911 in 9mm.

Why is everybody seeming to think that ive been ignoring the OP being from Australia? Ive fired 9mm 1911s before, that's why ive been recommending them.

 

[Tanner The Monotone]

is bordered with a country that is ran by criminals

Canada isn't that bad...

However for home defense a lever action might not be a bad idea, lever actions can be manufactured to fire fire pistol cartridges such as .38, .357, and .44 magnum. But then again, I'm not sure if that would be legal in Australia without extensive papers. They're considered a rifle, but they fire pistol cartridges, and judging by the quoted comment, anything above .38 seems to be a no-no for most people.

Ironically enough there's no restrictions on levergun calibres you can get a .44 magnum with no problem. I have heard anecdotal stories about people owning an unregistered pistol and a registered levergun and just using the latter as an excuse for buying buying the ammunition (you can buy any ammunition with a CAT A+B, but you'd likely get some raised eyebrows buying pistol ammunition).

Screw it! If you can buy any lever action caliber, then get a 45-70 gov rifle with a short barrel. (big boom! big boom!)

 

[TotalerKrieger]

If you're going to use 9mm specifically, why wouldn't you choose the firearm which John Browning designed to use said calibre? In the 20's, Browning updated his previous 1911 model to become the 9mm P35 High Power. (Browning died before the new design was completely finished, but Saive of FN FAL fame put the finishing touches on it.)

I haven't heard anything bad about 9mm variants, but it seems "blasphemous" to chamber a 1911 in anything other than .45 APC...maybe that's just me.

 

[Tanner The Monotone]

Hey guys,

I just got back from my holiday on Hamilton island, I got to have my first real go with a few different hand guns, a Glock 9mm, SW .38, SW.357 magnum and the fabled SW .44 Magnum.

I had an absolute ball and it has convinced me to purchase my first gun.

The laws are pretty stringent here (NSW Australia) so I am thinking either a CZ75 9mm, or a SW .38 special

what do you guys think?

do any of you own any firearms or even go shooting yourselves?

I change my mind. Get an Astra 400. I own one and it's a good pistol. It shoots a 9mm and .38. It's also the only pistol ever made that can shoot both rounds that it was made for in one magazine. (It shoots .38 supers, but its not really safe)

 

[ElPatron]

I agree.

My argument was that America is more violent than Britain. I didn't say it was because of guns.

I'm very much on the fence when it comes to guns. I think there are more important things to deal with. There are so many other social and economic factors which need tackling imho.

I have been to London and it was pretty awful.

UK numbers do not include crimes against anyone under the age of 16.

 

[Akimoto]

If you want 9mm I'd go with a Beretta 92F, kind of a longer barrel and the way the sights are positioned make it very accurate. It's a little heavy so the recoil is very manageable. Also the magazine holds 15 rounds so you have that working for you too. It's also very easy to take apart and clean.

Agreed. I shot one in Korea and it was a joy to use as compared to others like the P228 or a .38. Personally I would go for a gun that I find 1) Light and easy to hold 2) simple to strip and assemble.

 

[jakeblues69]

If you're thinking of going for .38, I would recommend getting a .357 magnum. You can fire the .38's in the .357 too. Think of it as two for the price of one.

 

[Stu35]

I agree.

My argument was that America is more violent than Britain. I didn't say it was because of guns.

I'm very much on the fence when it comes to guns. I think there are more important things to deal with. There are so many other social and economic factors which need tackling imho.

I have been to London and it was pretty awful.

UK numbers do not include crimes against anyone under the age of 16.

I've been to London too, I agree it's awful.

Funny thing about the United Kingdom though, we're not a single bloody city (contrary to the opinion of far too many Americans i've come across in my travels, who upon finding out I was British immediately came out with "I've been to London!"...)... Ahem, but that's another rant, for another time.

Yes, London aint great, I've been to Detroit, St. Louis and Oakland. All are worse imho. I've been to San Francisco, San Diego and Boston as well though - SF and Boston are in my top 5 cities in the world list.

My point is, every country has it's shitholes. It's just that One of Americas shitholes (Detroit, in this instance, possibly some others as well, I've not checked), actually has more homicides in it's 5 million population than our entire country and all it's overseas territories.

I know there are many, many places in America that are perfectly safe, nice areas. Just as I know that there are parts of Leeds that I wouldn't want to wander round late at night. However, from the simple point of "Who is more violent", Statistics, pure and simple, show that America is worse.

Whether you take into account all of America, or simply pit 5 million of it's residents from one city against our entire empire, you're more violent.

Once again, I don't think it's anything to do with guns (if anything it's that you can't handle your booze). However I dislike the idea that Americans seem to think that their country is safer than ours BECAUSE of guns.

It's not. It's not safer, and if it was, it wouldn't be because of guns. It's for a variety of complex social issues.

 

[ElPatron]

It's not. It's not safer, and if it was, it wouldn't be because of guns. It's for a variety of complex social issues.

Some of the most violent cities in the US have pretty tight gun laws compared to the rest of the US.

Correlation does not imply causation, but I remember an American state that started issuing carry permits, and crime dropped 50%. In fact, most of the crime targeted tourists because criminals knew they were not carrying any gun on them.

And I think it's more of a culture thing than social issues. When I was younger I thought the UK was the most amazing place ever, but whenever I have contact with their culture it seems that the British equivalent of "soccer moms" are raising their kids to hate everything that is not normal and "conform".

I once bought a Top Gear magazine and read an article by James May. It was about the riots.

Apparently, everyone in the neighborhood wanted to defend their homes, but when May said his WWII screwdriver could be sharpened to military specifications to serve as a improvised bayonet everyone gave him a strange look.

Give every law abiding citizen a gun and a free pass to use it in self-defense and you won't have to worry about "social issues". As an European, I am tired of laws that protect criminals because of their social background.

 

[Stu35]

snip

Give every law abiding citizen a gun and a free pass to use it in self-defense and you won't have to worry about "social issues".

Tell that to Mexico, Afghanistan, Iraq... A lot of countries really.


Guns are, in my opinion, mostly an irrelevance when it comes to crime. For this I generally end up being sniped at by both the "uhh Guns are bad, m'kay" and the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people, guns protect people from people with smaller guns" crowd.

Fuck the both of your sides of the argument. I've walked through Chapeltown in Leeds, and I can tell you that the problem there isnt that people don't have guns, it's that their schools are shit, the parents are ill-educated cradle-to-grave welfare types, and there's nothing for the kids to do but drink and try to fucking stab passers by.

I've also wandered into the wrong part of St. Louis, same fucking score - taking their guns away wouldn't have educated them and given them jobs.

Everyone owning Guns wouldn't suddenly make those little shits more ambivalent towards strangers, it wouldn't get them more educated or give them better jobs.


Same goes the other way round though - taking away peoples Guns doesn't make them less murderous or violent. It makes those who are murderous and violent be a little more creative, or make them break a law to get their gun (which, given their intent, they're gonna do anyway).


Once again... I don't actually CARE if guns are legal. I really, really don't. Neither should any bugger else - because we've bigger fucking fish to fry.

 

[Latinidiot]

Get a water gun, the only type of gun worth getting. Seriously, why on Earth do you want a gun?

Really? Am I sensing the, "Guns are evil," mentality here? It certainly seems that way.

Obviously the OP would disagree with you here, and it appears many others on this thread would too. Why would anyone want a gun? The answer is quite simple. Shooting is, in fact, quite a lot of fun! Not only is shooting a competative sport, it is also sometimes necessary to own a firearm to control populations of dangerous/damaging pests, protect one's home, or even own them for the sake of collecting historical artifacts.

No, the question of 'why would you want a gun?' is a pretty fair one. I don't like guns, I really don't, but your answer strikes me as fair.

 

[ElPatron]

snip

Give every law abiding citizen a gun and a free pass to use it in self-defense and you won't have to worry about "social issues".

Tell that to Mexico, Afghanistan, Iraq... A lot of countries really.

You could have used Egypt. It would defend your point a lot better because people are using guns to carry out personal vendettas. That's the part you realize it's a cultural thing and doesn't apply to the US - they fought for their independence and didn't start shooting everyone.

In Mexico gun laws are pretty restrictive, and cartels have private armies that obtain truckloads of illegal weapons.

Afghanistan was supplied with weapons by the US to fight the Soviets. If they need they make AK's from melted down manhole covers, which is a good way to end up with a bolt carrier on the head. Anyway, the Taliban are criminals to the world's eyes. But they were not robbing and killing everyone.

Iraq? If you don't remember, the US fought governmental forces. Those guns belonged to the Iraqi army/National Guard.

"we've bigger fucking fish to fry."

What boggles me is that there are people wasting tax payer's money in public school, never getting an education or any training, mugging kids and performing acts of vandalism, can get to adulthood and still blame his social background for the criminal scum they are - basically running away from responsibility.

And the society feels they are entitled to steal your TV, kill your family and rape your grandma.

Give the populace reasonable self-defense laws, and we will personally "fry" any fish.

 

[Malyc]

If you're going to use 9mm specifically, why wouldn't you choose the firearm which John Browning designed to use said calibre? In the 20's, Browning updated his previous 1911 model to become the 9mm P35 High Power. (Browning died before the new design was completely finished, but Saive of FN FAL fame put the finishing touches on it.)

I haven't heard anything bad about 9mm variants, but it seems "blasphemous" to chamber a 1911 in anything other than .45 APC...maybe that's just me.

Ya know, when you put it that way... it does seem like a shame to not have the 1911 be a powerhouse.

 

[Stu35]

snip

What boggles my mind is that I'm not actually against your side (as such) when it comes to the possession of guns. In fact in your post you raise points supporting my stance (Egyptians aren't all running round destroying each other, Afghans are, indicating that guns aren't the factor making the difference).

And yet, because I don't believe that guns can cure all the worlds ills, you're arguing with me as if I am. The "With us, or against us" mentality eh?

It's fascinating, it really is.

 

[Grant Hobba]

I'd personally start with something a little easier to use, a .22 is usually what kids stateside start with. But if I had to choose something besides that a 9mm Glock is a good choice, its simple and reliable.

I live in the UK, where gun laws are even more stringent than in Australia (unless you have a collector's licence, pistols are limited to 2-shot "humane killers") but friends in the US swear by Glocks for their reliability and comparatively light weight.

Although OP, your posts puzzle me: you contradict your initial choice of a .44 Magnum by saying that .38 is the ceiling for calibre. Also, don't Glock 9mm pistols, like the classic Glock 17 typically have a magazine capacity in the 17-round neighbourhood? Unless you get the subcompact Glock 26, which has 10...

I suppose the question is, what are you intending to use it for?

I didn't contradict myself, I was on holiday in a Queensland Island... I live in New South Wales, the laws vary from state to state and there is a limit on caliber registered to a person, if the shooting range owns the gun... it's fine, same as police or security they can go over that limit because it is for their occupation.

 

[ElPatron]

The "With us, or against us" mentality eh?

That's not what I mean. Even in the US if you ask around a big city most people don't even know you can own guns without a license. Personally, it's much better than people thinking that a gun that can be "spray fired from the hip" is effective in crazed rampages.

It's just that an armed society can stop people from all social backgrounds from committing crimes. It's not fixing social issues, it's about reducing it's symptoms.

Gun ownership is not for everyone, to be honest. If you don't really care about them then there is no reason you need one.

EDIT: in Egypt the populace wanted a mass disarmament because they have been using the guns that gave them freedom to carry out personal vendettas.

That's why you don't give guns to people who weren't ready to use them.

Rather give them legally so that after a revolution everyone won't run around berserk just because they finally have a gun.

 

[tsb247]

Get a water gun, the only type of gun worth getting. Seriously, why on Earth do you want a gun?

Really? Am I sensing the, "Guns are evil," mentality here? It certainly seems that way.

Obviously the OP would disagree with you here, and it appears many others on this thread would too. Why would anyone want a gun? The answer is quite simple. Shooting is, in fact, quite a lot of fun! Not only is shooting a competative sport, it is also sometimes necessary to own a firearm to control populations of dangerous/damaging pests, protect one's home, or even own them for the sake of collecting historical artifacts.

No, the question of 'why would you want a gun?' is a pretty fair one. I don't like guns, I really don't, but your answer strikes me as fair.

I think it's a perfectly valid stance to not want to own a firearm, and even go so far as to not like them. That is your right. I only have a problem when people that I don't even know try to take my right to enjoy shooting away from me by proposing bans or ridiculous amounts of red-tape.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Get a water gun, the only type of gun worth getting. Seriously, why on Earth do you want a gun?

Same reason some people are more propense towards FPS games. They like shooting stuff.