California Marijuana Regulation Act of 2010
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That's complete and utter bullshit. A person is an individual with both individual feelings and beliefs that can either be different, similar or the same to the ones other individuals have. Stating that a person's will and body belongs to a community is extremely close to stating that the person is a slave.Cavouku said:
Of course I have been using that so called "excuse". A community has no right to dictate what another person should do. A persons life is his own problem and I always hated people who tell others how to live their lives. If they do end up affecting the well being of an individual then there are always consequences.Cavouku said:
Should people who are against pot be accommodated accordingly? This shouldn't be up to a debate just like gay marriage shouldn't be up for debate. No matter how large a community is they cannot force others to adhere to their belief system. Anything that does not affect you nor anyone else should be legal, like drugs for e.g.. The moment it starts to affect the community there are always consequences.Cavouku said:
Cavouku said:
ditto
Correlation does not imply causation. "Despite increases in cannabis consumption in the 1960s and 1970s in western society, rates of psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia remained relatively stable. Also, Sweden and Japan, where self-reported marijuana use is very low, do not have lower rates of psychosis than the U.S. and Canada do. For the theory of true causality to be correct, other factors which are thought to contribute to schizophrenia would have to have converged almost flawlessly to mask the effect of increased cannabis usage." - WikiFrungy said:
"A large, unselected population-based study, published in British Journal of Psychiatry (2008), examined cannabis use and prodromal symptoms of psychosis at age 15?16 years and concluded that cannabis use was associated with prodromal symptoms of psychosis in adolescence. The direction of causation was more directly examined in a study by Dr. Mikkel Arendt of Aarhus University in Risskov, Denmark, and colleagues, which found that individuals treated for psychotic episodes following cannabis use had the same likelihood of having a mother, sister or other "first-degree" relative with schizophrenia as did the individuals who had actually been treated for schizophrenia themselves. This suggests that the psychosis blamed on cannabis use is in fact the result of a genetic predisposition towards schizophrenia. "These people would have developed schizophrenia whether or not they used cannabis" - Wiki
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19560900
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7920
http://blog.norml.org/2010/05/26/latest-research-on-pot-and-schizophrenia-runs-contrary-to-mainstream-media-hype/
A person may be an individual, but unless you're a hermit you are part of a community, and are born with a responsibility, no matter how much you don't like it. I'm sure if you don't like that there are alternatives. There was a guy around here who went hermit, he did well, I'm to believe.AndyFromMonday said:
I must admit, I was more expecting to be likened to a communist than a slave runner. I think you underestimate how much a society depends on individuals working together, and when you protest so harshly it just sounds like desperate escape from others, as does the whole marijuana situation in general. I consider it spoiled myself, but I'll admit that I'm upset with your view and arguments, despite how little that's worth. I'm sure you feel the same.
And there are consequences every day of people minding their own business and still affecting others. Because most people have friends, and family, and acquaintances. A friend of mine was recently shunned by all of us, me including, for taking up marijuana. It was her method of coping with events from her past, and we all decided she needed to learn that she could talk to us. She stopped, but she learned nothing, and me and two others are trying to let the rest know about that. She affected us by doing nothing to us, such is correlation.
Your other question, about people against pot being accommodated, is fair. Such as there are people that would like to be accommodated to have a community without homosexual marriage. The only difference here being one is a request for something hedonistic the other for for love, hopefully for most at least, and equality. Your desire is to alter your brain for personal pleasure and any other effects you may receive. Gay marriage is so that two people may be legally binded to each other to receive the same benefits that two straight people do. An interesting comparison, and it made me think twice, so I give you that.
Still, there's a place for everyone, I suppose. I'd suggest you move to the Netherlands, but I'm aware that such a thing would be extremely expensive. I can't see marijuana as anything more than a detriment, so while normally I wouldn't suggest this to some causes, for you, I suggest coping. I'm told it's not a dependency, right? Surely there are more entertaining things to do for less or equal price, and if you don't find them such, I feel like I've proved a point.
As for your last point, I'm not sure what to make of it. There are several ways to take your response, but I won't risk making an assumption. Not again, at least.
Make the piss-test for the harder, physically addictive stuff (heroin, alcohol, meth etc) only, and I agree with this. Making theft for drugs a capital offense is ridiculously disproportionate, however - theft is theft is theft, and crimes linked to drugs can have enforced treatment sentences.SilentHunter7 said:
Remember, in the real world you'd pay as much now as you would if this passed to help the idiots who slip through the cracks - even if more stringent checks weren't put in place. The number of addicts, as we've seen from areas who've decriminalised harder drugs, would actually not change. Add in the checks you suggested (and I agree with), and suddenly you've got a clean product, some way to monitor and control your intake (say, be limited to a certain quota of addictive drugs but free access to non-addictive drugs every month) and, if you're poor enough to be at serious risk of a debilitative drug addiction which you won't be able to pay for yourself (hence being on benefits), then you'll not be allowed to take that risk.
That last bit does sound class-ist, mind - any thoughts on how to make that fairer?
Accomodating pot is just refraining from stopping other people from doing it. Constructing an animation of a dragon is something which must be actively done. You've made a poor analogy there.Cavouku said:
And accomodating marijuana users - all that is, is no longer repressing a freedom. I believe if it doesn't affect others, your freedom should be unbounded. It's not asking Californians to be forced to change their behaviour to accomodate the pot smokers - unless they like to make a hobby out of arresting stoners.
Are you suggesting that through some circumstances that I had nothing to do with I am forced to obey some arbitrary rules set up by the community I was born in? I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with that. You cannot force people to obey your beliefs just because they're part of your community. I'm part of a community that's 99% Christian. If they decide that I should convert and become a Christian should I do it or should I hold on to atheism?Cavouku said:
I understand that society is dependent on individuals, I really do. However, you cannot force people to abide by what you believe to be correct.Cavouku said:
I used gay marriage as an example due to most communities having no problem with forcing people to abide by their beliefs that homosexuals should not have the ability to marry. The same can be applied to pot. Sure, one deals with marriage and the other deals with drugs but the basic principle remains the same. Communities forcing others to abide by their beliefs.Cavouku said:
Accepting my poor analogy, I'm pretty sure that someone would be affected by you or anyone else smoking it, whether it be a friend, relative, or other. A child who has the freedom to jump off a cliff and die has greatly affected his parents, hasn't he? While the affect from pot is probably a lot less dramatic, for most at least, it's still affecting people. The same could be said about almost every freedom, but I think the line should be drawn once we're asking for frivolous freedoms. Well, for the user. There's no addiction, true, and very minor or nonexistent health problems, true, but it's purpose is for getting a high, and nothing else, unless we're talking about it in hospitals and such. I'm fully aware of some great medical uses for it.benylor said:
Used recreationally, it's just altering your state of mind, or something along those lines, for enjoyment. I'm sure the alternatives could be artistic mediums, like books, television, games. Pot and other mind altering drugs just seems so... disrespectful. To your mental state, your perception, the world around you that is altered, and the alternatives you're disregarding.
And also, aside from medical reasons, I've only ever heard saddening and disappointing reasons why people start using it. Conforming, emotionally coping, etc. Escapism can be done through more developing means. After all, this website, the Escapist, is dedicated primarily to video games, something that can develop a person's thoughts, knowledge, opinions and the like. I know the is anecdotal, but I've only ever witnessed detrimental development from marijuana. I'm sure there would be protests to that, whether personal statements or tests, but I've yet to see them and not be able to blast holes into them.
We're all born with responsibilities whether we don't want them or not, me being no different. If you don't want to accept them, you should get creative. I'm not saying you have to change your views, and you shouldn't be responsible for, at least most of, your inactions. Your actions, however, and who they affect are to be noted, and I'm hoping you at least take responsibility for them. I've been using that word a lot, but you seem to be using it in dictatorship terms, and that's only coming across as dodging them to me. I could argue with my father all day about why I shouldn't do the dishes, and call him a slave runner, but the point is I live in his house. I was born there. I should do the dishes, or move out. I'm grateful that I have a place to call home with people that care about what I do, and that my actions affect them.AndyFromMonday said:
If you have the capacity to not be part of a community that is not accepting of something you do, then I believe you should be the bigger man and leave them be. I'd say that to two gay people who want to be married, why try and change a community that doesn't accept you? Change is good, and they should change for them, but there's some respect for how others feel to be had. It's when you don't have that option that you should opt to fight for it.
But then again, I'm greatly convinced that there is a difference between the cause of gay marriage and legalizing marijuana's recreational use. Whether the circumstances are the same, the cause does make a difference. What's right can be a matter of opinion, but the differences between these two somewhat comparable things is vast enough that one garners my support and the other doesn't.
Do you know Dragon Age Origins: Awakening? Nathaniel Howe and Anders had a discussion of comparisons. Anders compared being a Howe to being a mage, like him. People fear or are disgusted with the Howes, as the mages, and he said if there were enough of them they'd be locked up in a tower to protect them from others.
Nathaniel thought about it and said that being a Howe doesn't mean he could turn into an abomination at any minute.
While I'm not saying you'll turn into an abomination, I'm saying that as comparable as two things are, the differences shouldn't be over-simplified.
I really don't like using it. I've only ever had lame or bad experiences with it. Wanna hear my worst experience? Of course you do.
So I was at work (I'm a pizza delivery driver, which makes this story make a lot of sense) and my coworker really wanted to smoke me out. So we went to his car with two other people and I took a nice big hit. I didn't realize the windows were rolled up, so while I was reeling, I was also being hot-boxed in a small car.
When I got back into the store, I was fucking swimming. I literally had to swim when I walked. I got to the driver's room and immediately felt queasy. I sat there with my head between my knees for a half-hour until my boss demanded I do SOME work. So the coworker who smoked me out took me to the back and I did dishes for three hours. The whole time, I was DANCING. My legs were actually sore the next day because I danced the dishes clean.
Oh, and when my boss had me Cash-Out, she fucking put MOVES on me. I'm 19 and she's 31. Fucking ew. She didn't think I'd be coherent enough to A, say NO, or B, REMEMBER. Silly woman.
Anyways, I was actually in a good place and enjoying myself when it was time to leave. I didn't trust myself to drive though. I'm never a fan of anyone driving under the influence of anything. So my coworker took me back to his place. On the way to his place, I ate an entire medium pizza (14-inch diameter). When we got back to his place, I was actually sobered-up. What's the good idea at this point? SMOKE SOME MORE apparently. I figured it would be better in a relaxed environment. I took another bong hit, and was feeling good. Then he introduced me to a vaporizer.
If you've smoked before, but never through a vaporizer, there's something you should know. It doesn't burn. So when you're smoking it, you need to know when to stop instead of stopping when it burns too much. Instead, the taste of peanut butter fills your throat. So I cleared the whole damn thing. Yes, on my first vaporizer hit, I cleared the whole thing. The first thing I remember hearing was, "YOU FUCKING CHAMPION YOU!" For a while, it was cool. He put me on some computer game which I could barely even SEE, and I just sort of hung over the keyboard with my face in the most excited expression you've ever seen.
Suddenly, everything hurt. I laid down on the desk and started moaning. He moved me back to his futon and gave me a glass of water while watching me for the next hour or so. It hurt so bad... It was like an immense throbbing pain from my shoulders to my thighs. I had never felt anything so terrible. It was like I was being crushed by a 747. I kept reminding myself that I wasn't going to die and that everything was going to be okay, but it wasn't mental. I was in physical pain. After about an hour of this, I belched hideously and a bunch of smoke rose from my gullet. I suddenly had to vomit. I made it to the toilet and I vomited up that entire pizza I'd eaten earlier. Fun shit. Immediately afterward, I was exhausted and passed out on his futon. I woke up in his guest bedroom the next morning with no idea how I'd gotten there.
Despite all of that, I highly advocate the legalization of marijuana.
So I was at work (I'm a pizza delivery driver, which makes this story make a lot of sense) and my coworker really wanted to smoke me out. So we went to his car with two other people and I took a nice big hit. I didn't realize the windows were rolled up, so while I was reeling, I was also being hot-boxed in a small car.
When I got back into the store, I was fucking swimming. I literally had to swim when I walked. I got to the driver's room and immediately felt queasy. I sat there with my head between my knees for a half-hour until my boss demanded I do SOME work. So the coworker who smoked me out took me to the back and I did dishes for three hours. The whole time, I was DANCING. My legs were actually sore the next day because I danced the dishes clean.
Oh, and when my boss had me Cash-Out, she fucking put MOVES on me. I'm 19 and she's 31. Fucking ew. She didn't think I'd be coherent enough to A, say NO, or B, REMEMBER. Silly woman.
Anyways, I was actually in a good place and enjoying myself when it was time to leave. I didn't trust myself to drive though. I'm never a fan of anyone driving under the influence of anything. So my coworker took me back to his place. On the way to his place, I ate an entire medium pizza (14-inch diameter). When we got back to his place, I was actually sobered-up. What's the good idea at this point? SMOKE SOME MORE apparently. I figured it would be better in a relaxed environment. I took another bong hit, and was feeling good. Then he introduced me to a vaporizer.
If you've smoked before, but never through a vaporizer, there's something you should know. It doesn't burn. So when you're smoking it, you need to know when to stop instead of stopping when it burns too much. Instead, the taste of peanut butter fills your throat. So I cleared the whole damn thing. Yes, on my first vaporizer hit, I cleared the whole thing. The first thing I remember hearing was, "YOU FUCKING CHAMPION YOU!" For a while, it was cool. He put me on some computer game which I could barely even SEE, and I just sort of hung over the keyboard with my face in the most excited expression you've ever seen.
Suddenly, everything hurt. I laid down on the desk and started moaning. He moved me back to his futon and gave me a glass of water while watching me for the next hour or so. It hurt so bad... It was like an immense throbbing pain from my shoulders to my thighs. I had never felt anything so terrible. It was like I was being crushed by a 747. I kept reminding myself that I wasn't going to die and that everything was going to be okay, but it wasn't mental. I was in physical pain. After about an hour of this, I belched hideously and a bunch of smoke rose from my gullet. I suddenly had to vomit. I made it to the toilet and I vomited up that entire pizza I'd eaten earlier. Fun shit. Immediately afterward, I was exhausted and passed out on his futon. I woke up in his guest bedroom the next morning with no idea how I'd gotten there.
Despite all of that, I highly advocate the legalization of marijuana.
What you described as responsibility was to comply with the terms of your community. If your community believes something then you should do the same as it is your responsibility. I believe there was a fundamental misunderstanding here.Cavouku said:
I agree. You should be responsible for your actions. I never stated that if drugs were legal all responsibility would go out the window.
Actually, that's a tricky situation. I disagree with the "either respect my rules or move out of my house" argument when it comes to children or teens. I believe that using such an argument puts the parents in a bad light. "I'm not your friend nor your parent, I'm your dictator. You either do what I want or face the consequences". I believe such a behavior hinders the parent-child relationship as parents should not come out as dictators but as guides. It would be way more beneficial for the relationship if the parent took the time to explain to the child why he should wash the dishes. I believe reason works better than dictatorship when it comes to raising kids.Cavouku said:
But this isn't about changing a community. This is about basic human rights. Should a larger crowd have the ability to impose their will upon others? What if that larger crowd is racist? Should black people abandon their home, their work and their friends just because there are some people that hate them? If a small child is being bullied, should he simply change schools or attempt to appeal to a higher authority, mainly the principal, to punish those bullies?Cavouku said:
Cavouku said:
How so? It's a basic example of the majority forcing their will upon the minority. There's really a simple solution to this. If the majority does not want to use recreational drugs then they can simply not use them but that does not mean everybody else should adhere to their belief.
I think I'm going to lay down, I'm upset from all this anyways. A recess, I suppose. But the way I see it there's no way to justify using it for recreational use. The only standing arguments are what it doesn't do, that it could be taxed, or something like that, and that it gets one high. I'll leave the taxation argument to people who understand economics better.
Getting someone high is in no conceivable way to me enough reason to make it a right to be able to smoke it. That's just greedy and demoralizing, when there are far less frivolous things that could be in discussion.
Getting someone high is in no conceivable way to me enough reason to make it a right to be able to smoke it. That's just greedy and demoralizing, when there are far less frivolous things that could be in discussion.
I'm just going to address the parent thing for now, I'll get to the rest when I return. I already understand why I should do the dishes, and my father knows that I know that. I'll not forget to leave that out next time.AndyFromMonday said:
Later, alright?
EDIT: Actually, I should let you know, I was very sidetracked. My attention wasn't so much on the legalization or otherwise of marijuana, I was directing my attention on why it's something poor to do. I feel the same about alcohol. In general, I consider the legality of something to be irrelevant, and the act of doing something, whether legal or not, whether punishable or not, to be the main issue.
But I'm still going to lie down now.
It's really not like that at all.Ldude893 said:
Marijuana is not addictive. Proven.
Marijuana has never been conclusively linked to either cancer OR brain damage. Proven.
Marijuana has been shown to reduce risk of cancer of the lungs and brain and also improve cardiovascular health. Proven.
There are THC and other various Cannibinoid (the main components of Marijuana) receptors on the brain and in other parts of your body. Proven.
Marijuana can help with eating and mental health disorders. Proven.
Marijuana cannot be overdosed on. Proven.
So maybe is weed were highly addictive and had the potential to turn you into a raving lunatic and start wars; then yes, Marijuana would be like opium. But in the meantime, Marijuana has been proven multiple time by both government and non-government funded studies to be generally harmless and even sometimes beneficial.
The only negative aspect of smoking marijuana that I can find would be throat damage (not lung damage or cancer of the throat/lungs, but inhaling flaming particles of paper and plant material can obviously damage your throat) and that there is evidence that prolonged usage of Marijuana may cause gynecomastia (A.K.A Manboobs).
And even then, one of those things can be avoided by using a vaporizer while the other is NOT yet proven, and is thought to be very rare.
So uh, yeah, I don't live in California, but I obviously support this.
It seems that you've not actually seen an example which proves that responsible use of cannabis is possible. I would like to offer up myself as a subject to try to dispel some of your concerns.Cavouku said:
I've been smoking the stuff for a year. I started smoking it because, after extensive research of the effect of cannabis, I decided to ignore the government warnings and legality and do it anyway, as it seemed overblown. I checked numerous evidence-based sources, pro- and anti-drug, before making this decision. My intent was for using it recreationally, and to see if a new state of consciousness would gift me with any new insights into problems. I was also slipping in and out of depression at the time, but it seemed to have no effect on my decision to use the stuff.
I'm still the same person today, pretty much. I smoke it when I feel like smoking it, and have tried cooking with it. My state of mind while sober is different from when I started - specifically, my depression has almost left me, and attacks far less regularly than before. There are external factors which may have influenced this, however, so I would not be prepared at all to say that cannabis helps depression sufferers. I shall not go into them, for the possible reasons for that are many.
As for how I've affected other people - well, I haven't. It may be that being less heavily depressed has marked my interaction with others far more than the introduction of a new drug.
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I would not be able to say such pleasant things about myself and alcohol, for a start.
All I'm saying is, I feel you have a prejudice against cannabis. I have approached the subject from the perspective that drug does not necessarily equal bad. It sounds as if you are looking from the starting perspective that drugs cause harm.
EDIT: And, for the record, I'd be arguing for its legalization and using it even if there were no health benefits. With drugs which actually cause some measurable level of harm, it's a more difficult position to take, but I support legalization again, on grounds of freedom and harm reduction (it's easier and cheaper to treat this way). I would also like you to consider what your government could do with the billions of dollars of tax revenue from legal weed, as well as the reduced cost of law enforcement and extra prison places for true criminals. How much of a benefit would the community feel from stopping this ludicrous enforcement?
Wikipedia has it all lined up quite nicely. If you're to lazy to check the article yourself then here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_19AxCx said:
Considering that marijuana is the #1 cash crop in the entire United States, plus the fact that it's already been decriminalized where I live (read: decriminalized DOES NOT MEAN legalized. It's become a matter of quantity)... Why not legalize it and tax it?
The arguments against legalization make no sense to me. We're in an economic crisis. "But if we legalize marijuana," they say, "society will suffer!"
At the very least, legalization will keep our prisons less crowded.
The arguments against legalization make no sense to me. We're in an economic crisis. "But if we legalize marijuana," they say, "society will suffer!"
At the very least, legalization will keep our prisons less crowded.
It seems you have trouble distinguishing between marijuana USE and marijuana ABUSE, Cavouku. Your arguments seem to be based on the misguided belief that, if marijuana is legalized, everyone who uses it will abuse it. Let me be the first (well, perhaps not the FIRST, but still...) to tell you that that's not how things are going to go down.Cavouku said:
Have you ever been high, Cavouku? It's not always a terribly fun experience. In fact, I find it incredibly boring to be high with no one else around, so I don't smoke up unless I'm among friends. The way that works out is that I'm only high for about three hours out of every month.
Oh, and regarding your comment about how "escapism can be done through more developing means," let me inform you that a marijuana high allows one's perception to expand a bit. You notice things you wouldn't otherwise. You start to think more creatively. It's not a drunken stupor. It's not a quiet buzz. It's a very mentally stimulating experience.
Marijuana doesn't work like tobacco or alcohol. When you consume it, it doesn't consume you. I LIKE being high, but I'm not high all the time. And sure, some people are, but then, there are WAY more alcoholics and chain-smokers in the world than there are marijuana "addicts."
The polls, at the moment, suggest that it's going to pass.Dungus said:
Also, two points;
1) Why do you think the view that every drug should be legalised is stupid? Myself, I don't think that every drug should legalised, but it should be judged on addictiveness rather than danger. It all comes down to personal control. If you're constantly taking marijuana or ecstasy or other non-addictive drugs, then you're still in control of yourself. However, in the depth of a heroin addiction, you no longer want to take the drug but rather need to take it. This is where I think the boundaries for where politicians can ban a substance should come in.
2) Driving under the influence of marijuana. I know you'll probably view this as an outright lie, however, I, along with most of my friends, have driven stoned and there has not been one accident, not even nearly one. Everytime I drive stoned i'm fully attentive and safe, I drive more slowly than I do when i'm sober. Now i'm not saying "everybody spark-up and drive, it's ok!" But the stigma attached to driving when high is pretty unfounded, in my own experience.