Can high difficulty and atmosphere fit together?

[bartholen_v1legacy]

This popped up to my mind recently when I was playing Skyrim. I was in a very, very long, big and hard dungeon where and army of Falmer and Frostbite spiders were chewing on my ass. I probably died like 15 times before finally stepping out. Then it came to me.

Isn't a game like Skyrim (or RPG's in general?) all about immersing you in the game world so you can lose yourself in the adventure and explore the landscape randomly for hours on end? Isn't a video game tradition like the death --->loading screen --->respawn routine the ultimate reminder that you are still just playing a game? Doesn't the game contradict itself this way? When you're thinking "Goddammit that one mage is just unfair game design" instead of what's around the next corner, aren't you taken out of the experience? Like when you're watching a 3D movie and there's a scene that exists purely for the sake of showing it off.

The same thing I noticed about Amnesia: The Dark Descent, a game that's all about atmosphere and immersion. When I was in the flooded cellar I died a few times, and just had to memorize what to do at what time. Then I wasn't thinking "OOOOH SHITSHITSHIT I NEED TA GIT OUTTA HERE", but "now hop on to these crates, yawn-a-rama", and felt like I was missing the whole point of the game.

Thoughts on this, please.

And before you ask: No, I haven't played either of the "Souls" games.

 

[Esotera]

If you couldn't die, then it'd need something really good like you waking up in the nearest village with most of your good armour/coins gone. I wouldn't say that dying then reloading really takes away from the experience - it reminds the player that you are in fact mortal.

 

[Datsle]

Yeah, Dark Souls.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I actually feel the opposite. If a game is easy, then I usually feel less immersed into the world. The world should able show me that I am indeed not in charge. I am not the center of the universe nor should my character be. That's just one small part though, there are just so many minor details and probably several intangibles that cause people to be immersed into a world.

 

[dimensional]

Ive never really got this immersion lark people are talking about so having to reload a save reminds you that you are playing a game? so your saying that until that point you had forgotten? Death is usually used as a sort of punishment by the game to say that you have failed and you have to try again, take away any possibility of losing and any victory will be meaningless.

Death in a game is just a mechanic in a system and like any system it can be exploited die enough times in an area and no doubt you will soon know all the hazards there and be able to use aquired skills and knowledge to deal with them. Of course this mechanic can also be bad through incorrect implementation kill off the player seemingly at random with no chance to learn from the mistake and odds are people arent going to enjoy or even play the game.

You dont die and have to reload in all games though sometimes it punishes you another way but unless it features some kind of self wiping autosave feature odds are people will just reload to a previous save before they were killed anyway. Likewise if there is little punishment such as Bioshock then you dont really play the game properly either who cares about possible danger when your immortal.Personally I prefer the death reload option better than the more `realistic`you die you lose wiping save file now approach.

 

[Skin]

The "Souls" series pretty much tries to accomplish this.

 

[skywolfblue]

Isn't a game like Skyrim (or RPG's in general?) all about immersing you in the game world so you can lose yourself in the adventure and explore the landscape randomly for hours on end? Isn't a video game tradition like the death --->loading screen --->respawn routine the ultimate reminder that you are still just playing a game? Doesn't the game contradict itself this way? When you're thinking "Goddammit that one mage is just unfair game design" instead of what's around the next corner, aren't you taken out of the experience? Like when you're watching a 3D movie and there's a scene that exists purely for the sake of showing it off.

I'll agree with this.

Some difficulty is required in order to keep the player engaged and aware. However, too much results in me getting tired of it and throwing a fit of rage. It stops feeling challenging and feels more like BS.

 

[Ruairi iliffe]

S.T.A.L.K.E.R: Shadow of chernobyl

Play on the higher difficulties, get a scratch or shot you start to bleed out unless you bandage yourself up, Background Radation can spike and anomalies can suddenly suck you up and crush you into flecks.

Alot of these things still are around on lower difficulties, so ive had many a time where im walking around the Zone at night, i hear the wind rustling agasnt the trees and i feel really alone and outside, then i hear something breathing... and im now empting a full clip into a tree while having my arse clawed off.

I.E fucking Bloodsuckers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBh9wz-JbYE

But its still possible to fight it off, bandage my wounds and wait for it to come sulking back, only this time im ready with my shotgun. Utterly atmospheric, and at a nice satisfying challange.

To me, the only game ive played which has pulled this off.

 

[Doclector]

A difficult one. As previously said

I actually feel the opposite. If a game is easy, then I usually feel less immersed into the world. The world should able show me that I am indeed not in charge. I am not the center of the universe nor should my character be. That's just one small part though, there are just so many minor details and probably several intangibles that cause people to be immersed into a world.

but it does interrupt things when after wondering towards ivarstead I die and end up swearing my ass off.

For the record, mages aren't broken...bears at low level however...

 

[krazykidd]

Isn't a game like Skyrim (or RPG's in general?) all about immersing you in the game world so you can lose yourself in the adventure and explore the landscape randomly for hours on end? Isn't a video game tradition like the death --->loading screen --->respawn routine the ultimate reminder that you are still just playing a game? Doesn't the game contradict itself this way? When you're thinking "Goddammit that one mage is just unfair game design" instead of what's around the next corner, aren't you taken out of the experience? Like when you're watching a 3D movie and there's a scene that exists purely for the sake of showing it off.

I'll agree with this.

Some difficulty is required in order to keep the player engaged and aware. However, too much results in me getting tired of it and throwing a fit of rage. It stops feeling challenging and feels more like BS.

Then don't die? Turn the difficulty down? I don't know stop playing games? I don't get people that complain about difficulty. Lets take out death all together , then you can walk around the world feeling immersed and all powerful like superman . I mean really , have we gotten to the point that gamers don't want to be able to die to be immersed? Go watch a movie .

OT: play dark souls or limbo , two games with great atmosphere and challenging . Too hard? Play kirby's epic yarn. Good atmosphere and you can't die . Btw horror games ( likr amenesia ) are about the fear of death.thats where the horror came from. Take a game like silent hill for example . The atmosphere in those games are great , and will have you fearing death even after you turn the game off .

Now for games like skyrim , can you tell me what would be the fun if you couldn't die? Just wandering around and killing shit for the sake of sight seeing . Really? That doesn't seem very interesting to me . Challenge is needed ,

 

[Zen Toombs]

In short: Yes they can. However, sometimes it can be challenging to get the balance correct. A game needs to be just challenging enough to a person to not break immersion, either due to easiness or hardness. Too difficult, and you run into the "Save/Reload" issue you spoke of. Too easy and a person just runs around flailing their arms and are unironically referred to as the savior of the world.

 

[Hyper-space]

snip

Death in video-games has always been a missed opportunity for a more immersed approach to story-telling. As you pointed out earlier, its this save-load routine that you have to do every time you die that keeps pulling you out of the experience. Failure is never part of the story, or more specifically the journey that your character goes through, it is always just an error that will be corrected. You will always be able to undo whatever missteps there are along the way, which makes for a rather uninteresting story.

I however, would like to see an RPG that makes it so that you character can be captured (and not just because its part of the story), enslaved or whatever. Make it so that failure is an option, so that you have the opportunity to make a comeback.

In the context of Skyrim, it would happen like this: You come across a bandit-hideout, you decide to attack. However, the Bandit Leader proves to much BUT! instead of just dying and re-loading, your character wakes up in a cell having been knocked out during the fight (presumably while low on health). Yours is a sneaky one, managing to hide a lock-pick which you then use to open the cage. The question then arises: do you try to sneak out and come back later for your stuff, or, try to take them out one by one sneakily.

Now, this would just be one hypothetical situation, and it would be up to the developer to think of exciting ways this scenario could play out (a necromancer might try to perform some unholy rite upon you, or a mage might try to enslave you).

 

[endtherapture]

You could try playing The Witcher 2 on Insane difficulty. When you die, your save gets deleted so you have to start at the beginning. It can prove to be quite challenging.

 

[efrafa_6]

The "Souls" series pretty much tries to accomplish this.

This, although I think Demon's Souls did it better than Dark Souls.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Isn't a game like Skyrim (or RPG's in general?) all about immersing you in the game world so you can lose yourself in the adventure and explore the landscape randomly for hours on end? Isn't a video game tradition like the death --->loading screen --->respawn routine the ultimate reminder that you are still just playing a game? Doesn't the game contradict itself this way? When you're thinking "Goddammit that one mage is just unfair game design" instead of what's around the next corner, aren't you taken out of the experience? Like when you're watching a 3D movie and there's a scene that exists purely for the sake of showing it off.

I'll agree with this.

Some difficulty is required in order to keep the player engaged and aware. However, too much results in me getting tired of it and throwing a fit of rage. It stops feeling challenging and feels more like BS.

Then don't die? Turn the difficulty down? I don't know stop playing games? I don't get people that complain about difficulty. Lets take out death all together , then you can walk around the world feeling immersed and all powerful like superman . I mean really , have we gotten to the point that gamers don't want to be able to die to be immersed? Go watch a movie .

OT: play dark souls or limbo , two games with great atmosphere and challenging . Too hard? Play kirby's epic yarn. Good atmosphere and you can't die . Btw horror games ( likr amenesia ) are about the fear of death.thats where the horror came from. Take a game like silent hill for example . The atmosphere in those games are great , and will have you fearing death even after you turn the game off .

Now for games like skyrim , can you tell me what would be the fun if you couldn't die? Just wandering around and killing shit for the sake of sight seeing . Really? That doesn't seem very interesting to me . Challenge is needed ,

Please note that nowhere in my post did I imply that difficulty itself would be the problem. I meant that too high level of difficulty in certain types of games can be a problem. It's hard to feel like being on an epic journey when you've just been killed by the same 5 enemies for the 7th or so time. I generally don't like turning down the difficulty in games, it feels like cheating.

I guess it ultimately comes down to balance. Too little difficulty, and the player just gets bored and wanders off to another game. Too much difficulty, and the player just gets frustrated, says "F U" to the game and wanders off to another.

 

[suitepee7]

thats saying difficulty just lies in combat, with the penalty being death. if you were sneaking, and the penalty was being caught, i would say immersion can be very good with high difficulty (my skyrim thief is proof for me). however if it is just running in all guns blazing, it is very difficult, and it would lower immersion too for me. but then surely if you were playing for immersion, you would notice that your character cannot win that fight, and try a different tactic?

 

[Wolfram23]

The "Souls" series pretty much tries to accomplish this.

This, although I think Demon's Souls did it better than Dark Souls.

Really? How come?

I think Dark Souls is basically all the same, and everything they changed only makes it better. Like not having the central hub, and just having all areas interconnected. I think that's awesome for immersion. I also quite like the new healing system. No more stupid grass!

 

[Pat8u]

Isn't a game like Skyrim (or RPG's in general?) all about immersing you in the game world so you can lose yourself in the adventure and explore the landscape randomly for hours on end? Isn't a video game tradition like the death --->loading screen --->respawn routine the ultimate reminder that you are still just playing a game? Doesn't the game contradict itself this way? When you're thinking "Goddammit that one mage is just unfair game design" instead of what's around the next corner, aren't you taken out of the experience? Like when you're watching a 3D movie and there's a scene that exists purely for the sake of showing it off.

I'll agree with this.

Some difficulty is required in order to keep the player engaged and aware. However, too much results in me getting tired of it and throwing a fit of rage. It stops feeling challenging and feels more like BS.

Then don't die? Turn the difficulty down? I don't know stop playing games? I don't get people that complain about difficulty. Lets take out death all together , then you can walk around the world feeling immersed and all powerful like superman . I mean really , have we gotten to the point that gamers don't want to be able to die to be immersed? Go watch a movie .

OT: play dark souls or limbo , two games with great atmosphere and challenging . Too hard? Play kirby's epic yarn. Good atmosphere and you can't die . Btw horror games ( likr amenesia ) are about the fear of death.thats where the horror came from. Take a game like silent hill for example . The atmosphere in those games are great , and will have you fearing death even after you turn the game off .

Now for games like skyrim , can you tell me what would be the fun if you couldn't die? Just wandering around and killing shit for the sake of sight seeing . Really? That doesn't seem very interesting to me . Challenge is needed ,

I think his point is that when you die you shouldn't jsut reload

 

[efrafa_6]

The "Souls" series pretty much tries to accomplish this.

This, although I think Demon's Souls did it better than Dark Souls.

Really? How come?

I think Dark Souls is basically all the same, and everything they changed only makes it better. Like not having the central hub, and just having all areas interconnected. I think that's awesome for immersion. I also quite like the new healing system. No more stupid grass!

I agree the gameplay is a massive step-up from the hub-based gameplay of Demon's Souls, especially the healing system as you mentioned but I feel Dark Souls lacks more in atmosphere than Demon's Souls, I get a true sense of loss and hopelessness from Demon's Souls

This is probably my nostalgia speaking though, haha.