Can (Internet) Piracy ever be Justified?

[Agayek]

Hey all,

Firstly, I know that the Escapist is very anti-piracy. I am in no way attempting to condone piracy in this thread, I am merely asking if there are any ways in which piracy can be defended.

By Piracy I just don't mean video games, I mean movies and music as well.

Are there really any logical reasons for why piracy is a good thing? What positive things does it promote?

Or is it just bad for all involved?

Also, I really don't want anyone to be reported because they are defending piracy in a way. So I would ask you all not to get angry and report those who seem like they are condoning piracy themselves, because it is just a hypothetical discussion in this thread.

Thanks!

Oh and if mods feel that this thread somehow breaches some piracy forum rule then you can delete it, but I couldn't find anything in the rules.

Piracy is a legitimate option in one of two scenarios:

1) You literally cannot experience the media in any other way. For example, it's not released in your country or there is no version in your native language.

2) You've already purchased the media in question. The way I see it, if you buy something and lose the disk or whatever, it's perfectly legitimate to download another copy. You've already paid for it, there's no reason to have to pay for it again.

Any situation involving piracy that does not fit one of those criteria is simply wrong. It's not technically theft, but the spirit behind it is the same. You take something without paying for it, because you're an entitled twit.

That said, piracy can potentially be good, in some circumstances. It's not, but if you follow the same principle as open-source software, wherein you make something freely available to everyone and let them edit it as they please (obviously, this likely wouldn't work for movies and the like), everyone can benefit greatly, assuming people redistribute their edits. I have not seen an instance of piracy that actually does such a thing, but there is potential for it.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

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Okay. You are saying your opinion cannot be supported by evidence because none exists; it 'just is'.

That's all I wanted to make sure of.

Actually, read the thread you've been posting in. The fact that I have people agreeing with me is proof enough that it's common knowledge, which is the standard we're trying to hit here; I don't have the time, the money, or the inclination to run a formal study on what the percentage is that has committed piracy, but this thread just proved my common knowledge claim.

I'm not arguing that you don't think you're right -- or that no one else does. I'm arguing that you cannot provide any evidence for your standpoint beyond 'because everyone knows it'. Everyone knows a lot of things, like Sol revolving Earth.

Your claims could be true. But you can't, by your own admission, supply any evidence for them.

That is all I'm saying.

You realize that the only reason I can't is because of the rule against admitting to piracy, right? When something is common knowledge because it's something people know about themselves, it really doesn't need a high standard of proof. This is like me saying "everybody poops" and you asking for scientific proof, when it's not necessary in the slightest.

 

[gavinshai]

Everybody with an internet connection has done at least one of them on accident.

Do you have any proof, or? It's fine if you want to make claims with zero evidence, just don't claim them as fact.

and also, it wasn't omyn claiming you have pirated, it was you claiming you've never pirated and omyn asking you if that's true or not.

Hence "you mean to tell me you've never...?"

Quit feeding the troll and mash the report button. This thread has been thoroughly derailed, and if Hive Mind didn't break the don't be a dick rule, I don't know what would.

All I asked was that you provide evidence to support your claims that everyone on the internet has committed piracy. If you had simply said you cannot, there would be no need for this conversation to occur.

Common knowledge + Logic = your answer. And I'm sorry to tell you this, but with an attitude like you've shown me this morning, I'm not expecting you to last long on these forums. At this point, I've reported you because you need a warning from someone with some authority. Did you read the rules or lurk at all before joining?

If it is common knowledge, could you please supply some evidence? If facts are readily available that prove your claims to the common people, it should be easy for you to present some.

I'm kind of enjoying this, actually; listen, dude, you aren't going to get a formal link. You're the only one arguing that it isn't common knowledge. Besides, you never answered my question; have you never, not once in your life, done any of the things on that list? And if not the things on that list, the second list two posts up from your first post after I wrote down the list?

Edit: And it's sufficiently proven to the common people because they're the ones doing it. I know a lot more shameless pirates in real life than I do online.

I'm actually half tempted to take the time to argue with a mathematical proof that when you take the probability of each individual event of each possible act of piracy spread throughout the population of the world that the likelihood of this not being true is within acceptable variance to call it 0%. Alas I'm not quite that bored yet.

 

[scythian0528]

Everybody with an internet connection has done at least one of them on accident.

Do you have any proof, or? It's fine if you want to make claims with zero evidence, just don't claim them as fact.

As much as I hate absolutes, the likelihood of someone being involved with piracy is extremely high, and I realize the difficulty in substantiating this claim through empirical means.

 

[Hive Mind]

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If you cannot provide evidence and are going to continually fall back on the 'it's true because everyone knows it' malarkey, we are done.

P.S: Someone tell those people Sol DOES orbit Earth. After all, everyone knew that. Common knowledge doesn't need evidence.

 

[VaderMan92]

the only situation i think it could be justified is if you already own a copy of the game and want a backup or maybe another copy for a different system but that's stretching it.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

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If you cannot provide evidence and are going to continually fall back on the 'it's true because everyone knows it' malarkey, we are done.

P.S: Someone tell those people Sol DOES orbit Earth. After all, everyone knew that. Common knowledge doesn't need evidence.

Well, if the sun were a sentient being that had to move under its own free will, and it personally believed it was orbiting the earth instead of the other way around, I'd tend to believe it when it told me that it did.

 

[Hive Mind]

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If you cannot provide evidence and are going to continually fall back on the 'it's true because everyone knows it' malarkey, we are done.

P.S: Someone tell those people Sol DOES orbit Earth. After all, everyone knew that. Common knowledge doesn't need evidence.

Well, if the sun were a sentient being that had to move under its own free will, and it personally believed it was orbiting the earth instead of the other way around, I'd tend to believe it when it told me that it did.

I'm sorry, but did our sun make the claim? No. No it did not. People like you and I did. Making your post entirely irrelevant.

I really cannot understand why you are finding it so hard to admit you are making a claim you assume to be true even though you can't point to ANYTHING as evidence for it. Reminds me of religion in a way.

 

[kabooz18]

No. Owning a copy, not being able to own a copy, being poor, owning a broken copy, or anything else doesn't matter.

Entitlement - some people haz it.

with being poor doesn't make it right I agree but the other stuff if you already have bought a license you can download the game licensed with that license as much as you want, would be stupid otherwise it's in fact so illogical I can't even think of a metaphor.

also if the game or piece of software is not licensed in your country it's not piracy XD technically I'm just saying

EDIT: to be clear the uploading of such products via 3rd parties is still illegal so never ever do that!

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

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If you cannot provide evidence and are going to continually fall back on the 'it's true because everyone knows it' malarkey, we are done.

P.S: Someone tell those people Sol DOES orbit Earth. After all, everyone knew that. Common knowledge doesn't need evidence.

Well, if the sun were a sentient being that had to move under its own free will, and it personally believed it was orbiting the earth instead of the other way around, I'd tend to believe it when it told me that it did.

I'm sorry, but did our sun make the claim? No. No it did not. People like you and I did. Making your post entirely irrelevant.

I really cannot understand why you are finding it so hard to admit you are making a claim you assume to be true even though you can't point to ANYTHING as evidence for it. Reminds me of religion in a way.

People made the claim about themselves, because they have the self knowledge to know they have done it. And by the way, you never did answer my question about youtube videos. Have you never watched a video that was put up by someone other than the copyright holder? have you never gone to youtube to look up a song? And if not youtube, then some other streaming video site? If you can say no to that question, I'm honestly puzzled at what you use the internet for.

Edit: My point with the whole sun thing is that you were using a bad metaphor. Yeah, common knowledge was wrong about what orbited what. But it was common knowledge about a force of nature that was tough to directly observe. I'm talking about a personal choice that people tend to know if they've made or not.

 

[Aurgelmir]

Hey all,

Firstly, I know that the Escapist is very anti-piracy. I am in no way attempting to condone piracy in this thread, I am merely asking if there are any ways in which piracy can be defended.

By Piracy I just don't mean video games, I mean movies and music as well.

Are there really any logical reasons for why piracy is a good thing? What positive things does it promote?

Or is it just bad for all involved?

Also, I really don't want anyone to be reported because they are defending piracy in a way. So I would ask you all not to get angry and report those who seem like they are condoning piracy themselves, because it is just a hypothetical discussion in this thread.

Thanks!

Oh and if mods feel that this thread somehow breaches some piracy forum rule then you can delete it, but I couldn't find anything in the rules.

Pro:
-Introduce people to things they might not have tried before.
-Forces industry to think different in order to combat piracy -> Leads to better solutions for the customer.

Con:
-Industry is forced to spend loads of money on anti piracy schemes
-Anti piracy solutions doesn't always lead to better solutions for the customer -> DRM
-Can't continue with the "old ways"


All in all Piracy is not desirable, but I personally do believe we have gotten a few good things out of it as consumers:

-Online TV channels and movie sites like Hulu and Netflix are filling a gap that piracy used to fill; Fast access to movies and TV without having to pre-record it yourself or go to a rental store.
-Simultaneous releases of movies and games between the bigger markets. I think I waited 6 months for Star Wars Episode 1 to be released in Norway after its release in the US. I didn't have to wait much at all for Episode 2. Same with games, but today I get them at the same time as the US (sometimes even before - See Thor release date)

All in all I think the best thing that piracy bring us is innovation in hte market towards newer and "scarier" distribution systems.

If you want to survive in todays market you need to accept that Piracy is your competitor, and provide your customer with a product that is far superior to the product that piracy provides, then and only then can you truly combat piracy and get payed for it at the same time.

 

[Hive Mind]

People made the claim about themselves, because they have the self knowledge to know they have done it. And by the way, you never did answer my question about youtube videos. Have you never watched a video that was put up by someone other than the copyright holder? have you never gone to youtube to look up a song? And if not youtube, then some other streaming video site? If you can say no to that question, I'm honestly puzzled at what you use the internet for.

A) You have pirated and therefore that is all the evidence you need that everyone in the world that uses the internet is a pirate? Your logic alludes me.

B) I don't use Youtube. I use my computer for MSN, writing my articles and playing my games.

Once again, you cannot provide any evidence at all and resort to 'because it just is' 'logic'.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

I'm actually half tempted to take the time to argue with a mathematical proof that when you take the probability of each individual event of each possible act of piracy spread throughout the population of the world that the likelihood of this not being true is within acceptable variance to call it 0%. Alas I'm not quite that bored yet.

I just quoted you to say that your Avatar disgusts me. I don't mean to be rude and I'm not trying to insult you...... but God, your avatar is REALLY disquieting. I don't like it at all.

OT: Does a kid in a poor, 3rd world nation not have the right to play any games whatsoever, because not a SINGLE game Publishing company in the world, sends a Single copy of any of it's games to his/her country's shops? He loses the right to play video games, watch Int'l movies, or hear foreign music, because s/he just so happens to have been born to a couple living in said poor country?

I'm not going to answer that ofcourse. I'm just going to leave that there....

 

[Hive Mind]

I'm actually half tempted to take the time to argue with a mathematical proof that when you take the probability of each individual event of each possible act of piracy spread throughout the population of the world that the likelihood of this not being true is within acceptable variance to call it 0%. Alas I'm not quite that bored yet.

I just quoted you to say that your Avatar disgusts me. I don't mean to be rude and I'm not trying to insult you...... but God, your avatar is REALLY disquieting. I don't like it at all.

OT: Does a kid in a poor, 3rd world nation not have the right to play any games whatsoever, because not a SINGLE game Publishing company in the world, sends a Single copy of any of it's games to his/her country's shops? He loses the right to play video games, watch Int'l movies, or hear foreign music, because s/he just so happens to have been born to a couple living in said poor country?

I'm not going to answer that ofcourse. I'm just going to leave that there....

You aren't entitled to something because you have bad luck.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

People made the claim about themselves, because they have the self knowledge to know they have done it. And by the way, you never did answer my question about youtube videos. Have you never watched a video that was put up by someone other than the copyright holder? have you never gone to youtube to look up a song? And if not youtube, then some other streaming video site? If you can say no to that question, I'm honestly puzzled at what you use the internet for.

A) You have pirated and therefore that is all the evidence you need that everyone in the world that uses the internet is a pirate? Your logic alludes me.

B) I don't use Youtube. I use my computer for MSN, writing my articles and playing my games.

Once again, you cannot provide any evidence at all and resort to 'because it just is' 'logic'.

See, this goes beyond using youtube as a matter of habit; to avoid that little bit of piracy, you have to have never used youtube to listen to a song. The fact that you're on a forum in which youtube songs frequently get posted suggests that you have, at some point done that. The way embeds work, you don't even have to go to the site to do it. I actually admitted earlier that it was hyperbole, but it's a very slight hyperbole. It would take a miracle to avoid committing piracy with an internet connection because copyrighted materials are so prevalent that it's ridiculously easy to infringe upon copyright completely by accident, to say nothing of the fact that people do it purposefully all the flipping time.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'm actually half tempted to take the time to argue with a mathematical proof that when you take the probability of each individual event of each possible act of piracy spread throughout the population of the world that the likelihood of this not being true is within acceptable variance to call it 0%. Alas I'm not quite that bored yet.

I just quoted you to say that your Avatar disgusts me. I don't mean to be rude and I'm not trying to insult you...... but God, your avatar is REALLY disquieting. I don't like it at all.

OT: Does a kid in a poor, 3rd world nation not have the right to play any games whatsoever, because not a SINGLE game Publishing company in the world, sends a Single copy of any of it's games to his/her country's shops? He loses the right to play video games, watch Int'l movies, or hear foreign music, because s/he just so happens to have been born to a couple living in said poor country?

I'm not going to answer that ofcourse. I'm just going to leave that there....

You aren't entitled to something because you have bad luck.

But you are if you have the good luck to be born into a situation that allows you to get whatever it is you want? Pot, meet the kettle.

 

[infohippie]

When the pirated version of a game works and the one you've just bought from a store doesn't due to shitty DRM, I'd say it'd be justified.

 

[Gigano]

No, not as long as the law banning it is legitimately passed in a democratic society.

In some instances - where there's no present or future national market to protect for the product being pirated - it can de facto be entirely harmless though, where it would be disproportionate overkill to waste resources prosecuting it. Nor would I waste my breath condemning such instances.

 

[ramboondiea]

here where the situations where i ended up pirating.
i owned the game, but the disc suddenly stopped working (2 games, zax and the first half life)

i have also done it so i could play games i already own but on my netbook (first two fallouts and some really old games i have) also i think i have an emulator on my computer but haven't used it in ages.

never pirated a film, but have done so with music, however i only do that when i cant find the cd which i always endup buying the cd because id rather own the actual copy.

see now i see no problem with this kind of thing, (although im sure any people will argue otherwise) i also think if you cat get the what ever it is your looking for (like it isnt made anyore or there is a regional issue) then go for it