Can somebody explain to me why Baldur's Gate is such a revered classic?

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Maleval

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I played it religiously when I was 10 or so, obviously never finished it, never even got that far into it, but had tons of fun mocking about GTA style. Obviously now I'm waiting for the possible HD re-release because of nostalgia and the desire t actually finish it.
 

Sangreal Gothcraft

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Baldurs Gate 2 was more....Forgiving.... Baldurs Gate one was goddam hard though, though if you just keep at it you will find it rewarding.
 

Kahunaburger

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tehroc said:
Level 1 can be the most difficult DND might be. You've got at max 17 hps (Gnome Barbarian with a 20 con) where any critical hit could drop you into the negatives. Hell a level 1 Mage could fall of his horse and go negative.
Or die to a full attack from a housecat :p
 

Bara_no_Hime

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GiantRaven said:
To answer the topic question: Because it's old.

I mean, it is an okay game (good old Bioware RPG) but it doesn't deserve the pedestal it sits upon.

Planescape: Torment, on the other hand, does. Not because of the gameplay (which is basically the same as BG) but because of a unique story that has never really been outdone.
 

JaceArveduin

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PureChaos said:
JaceArveduin said:
Not a clue, never played them. The Dark Alliance games, however, have acquired many days of my life.
Dark Alliance was a great game but i've not played the second one. the first had a great ending but which set up the second one really well but it wasn't released on GC. SO annoying
Yeah, the second one was great. They didn't change too much, but the changes were nice, like not having to buy arrows. There's only one thing I don't like, and that's the fact they combined the coin purse thing for multiplayer, so you and your friend both draw from the same pool of money.
 

Scars Unseen

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GiantRaven said:
Kahunaburger said:
Wow, it's almost like your choices actually have an impact on the game.
Hah, that's true. I would prefer, however, that the choices I make actually allowed me to continue through the game.

Min-maxing is pretty easy. That's why it's called min-maxing. You put the maximum points into the things that help your character be good at doing the thing you want your character to be good at, and put the minimum points into things that aren't relevant to that. If the game is less than clear about what abilities are effective in what situations or work well together*, you read GameFAQs or something.
The problem isn't whether it's easy or not, it's the fact that it needs to be done at all. If you need to min-max to beat the game, then why am I presented with a bunch of other options which aren't going to be of help to me?

Making a sub-optimal character that only serves to make the game impossibly hard is just going to infuriate the player, which is the exact opposite of what the developers should be trying to do.

Seriously, this is like complaining about how you have to gather resources in an RTS. What if you don't want to gather resources? The game should reward all choices equally because anything else is just bad design through and through!
This may not come as a surprise but I have little love for the RTS genre.

lRookiel said:
It's a common mistake really, one I made myself aswell. but you need to learn to jump for the opportunities when they come your way.
Clearly roleplaying a grump anti-social dwarf was a poor choice of character.

By the way, they will follow you to the inn regardless, you don't have to go south with them :)

Now I must point out once you acquire the set of companions I wouldn't keep them for long, my advice would be to get Xzar and Montaron, go to the inn, kill the troublesome assassin, then get Khalid and Jaheira to join your group. Since the two groups of companions are completely different (They secretly both work for different factions and have different interests), they will bicker amongst themselves and eventually fight (It would take a while). so searching for additional companions is a must, it's your choice really. ;)
Interesting, I fobbed them off pretty much because I had no interest in going south (my mission seemed pretty important, no time for messing around) but I might go back in a few weeks and give it another try. I'm somewhat reluctant to though since I don't want to end up in another fight in which I'm repeatedly killed 20 seconds with seemingly no way to victory.

I want to say 'ah perhaps this just isn't the game for me' but I love Arcanum and Fallout so much that I want to see it through just so that I've experience a higher amount of isometric RPGs.

Also, as a general side note, all these comments about me being a dirty 'casual' or needing to run crying to my mother are hilarious. 'Hardcore' gamers really do make me laugh sometimes. It's even funnier when you read other threads about how gamers are looked down upon. Some people could really use a good look in the mirror.

Seriously, utterly hilarious.
You don't really need to min max, but I would say that you should be at least somewhat familiar with the AD&D system so that you can make informed choices when deciding what kind of character you want to make and what NPCs you want to take with you. As for that mage at the inn... this isn't a design flaw in the game. The game is roughly emulating AD&D 2nd edition, and back then, low level characters led a dangerous life.

The mage in question is also low level, but he is armed with a spell that makes you lose control of your characters and a damaging spell that can't miss. One thing you can take from this is that mages, while fragile, can make a lot of fights trivially easy. Try making one yourself, and take spells like fear, sleep, hold person, etc. The mage is at his best when he is keeping the enemy from doing anything useful while they get torn to shreds. A quick sleep spell will take care of that upstart at the inn.

The thing to remember, and this is a side effect of the game being based on a tabletop game, system mastery is your friend.
 

dragonswarrior

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So it seems like everything I would say has already been said except...

GiantRaven said:
I was shocked to find people lovingly recalling how much they enjoyed this bullshit, loading the game over and over until the dice-rolling RNG gave them the great rolls they needed to pass this completely over the top obstruction.
See, I don't know about those, but I always had fond memories of difficult battles because they made me have to think. And it was so great. Replaying a battle over and over till I got the results I wanted... In today's video game world that sounds like a recipe for a bad game, but for me every time I went into those battles with a different strategy or tactic, then watching it all come together finally was a truly great experience.

What I am getting at is that for me it had nothing to do with the RNG. I mean, sure working strategies will fail if your numbers aren't high enough, but that will only ever result in one or two restarts tops. If you are doing your pausing and quicksaving like you should, it isn't really a problem.
 

Darkmantle

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GiantRaven said:
haha, I feel your pain, but sadly that's how d&d systems roll for the first 2 levels. I personally have no problem with him, but I have a good understanding of the AD&D rules. But even the first time I played he kicked my ass. What I would do is have the caster prepare all magic missle, and have imoen repeatedly blast him with the magic missle wand you SHOULD have at that point (i forget where you get it though)I'm not sure if you know this, but Magicmissle isSO good because it can NEVER miss. EVER. It ALWAYS hits!! so your having trouble hitting him? use MAGIC MISSLE LIKE A BOSS :)
 

Darkmantle

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michael87cn said:
Wouldn't know. I own both of the Baldur's Gate games but I've never really given either much of a chance. I just can't enjoy the entire process. Call me dumb or stupid or lazy, but either way, I find everything to be "work". Making a character is a pain, starting the game you see a massive interface with about 100 different buttons and when you click on one, you're assaulted with about 50 more that all link to 50 other interface options. Not to mention the whole idea of controlling a PARTY of characters in a real time isometric game is a nightmarish headache for me - and I'm fairly good at strategy games! - . . .

Now, in comparison to fallout 1/2? They are much better games. The character creation is varied but not confusing. The interface has options and depth but its not something you have to study. Everything is intuitive and with a little memorization becomes second nature. You can get party members but you're not forced to pause the game every few seconds to control every single thing they do. You control one character and your party of NPCs follow you and exercise their own A.I.

Combat is a lot more fun because it's turn based...

Basically.. in my opinion the Fallout games were ahead of their time and did it right - the Baldur's Gate games were obsolete at their time and did it wrong. That's why I don't like 'em. I have much the same problem getting into Planescape Torment. The writing in the games may be excellent, but I would prefer better gameplay and less reading to horrible gameplay and Shakespeare.
Use the space bar. BG is real time, but you can pause it at will. Use the space bar luke! or in the option you can set it to auto pause after every "round" if you want. but I've always loved my space bar :)
 

mrhateful

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GiantRaven said:
Here is my experience with Baldur's Gate:

I go through the game as normal. Create character, meet Gorian, see him get killed and venture out on my own towards my next objective, two characters I assume I can recruit into my party. So far so good. It's enjoyable and the story setup is vaugely interesting and I'd like to see where it leads.

Upon reaching said objective (a large inn) I'm greeted by an assassin (though I only know this because I read that he's an assassin via google) who evades and eludes every attack my companion and I make, whilst offing me with a single flick of his wrist. I should also mention he completely blocks the way to where I need to go, crucially cutting me off from the backup I so desperately need.

After repeating this a dozen or so times with no success I stubbornly head off to search how to beat this bastard, finding out that this assassin is way out of league for my characters and should be dispatched by the nearby guards. The same guards that ineffectually wail on him to no avail.

Going through another dozen or so futile attempts to beat this sucker (the guards killed him once, right after he'd magic missile'd my scrawny Dwarven buttocks) I give up in frustration and took to google again to find out more information. I was shocked to find people lovingly recalling how much they enjoyed this bullshit, loading the game over and over until the dice-rolling RNG gave them the great rolls they needed to pass this completely over the top obstruction.

How do people like this piece of shit? Even Fallout wasn't this bastardly in it's opening hour.
You are not supposed to be able to just beat anyone, remember you are on escape and aren't exactly a hero at this point.. Just because the game itsn't holding your hand all the way doesn't make it bad. People today have just been fed that false idea through the mainstream games of today.
 

boag

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T_ConX said:
Bioware managed to tone down the difficulty in future releases. Neverwinter Nights (still my favorite game of all time) was a little softer, and I really think KOTOR managed to nail the difficulty sweet-spot.

Then Mass Effect came out... then ME2... and things have been going downhill since. I blame EA...
Allow me to place a linch pin on your OPINION.

Game mechanics have never been Biowares FORTE, they have always depended or ripped off an ancillary or already established system.

Which makes your complaint seem to stem Primarily from the Fact that NO ONE uses the AD&D system anymore for Gameplay.

Thats a valid opinion for you, but using that as basis for why Bioware has supposedly gone downhill will make a lot of people disagree.

If anything Bioware hasnt really changed much, it has continued to recycle the same character archetypes and Overall plot from BG in all their titles with a few exceptions here and there.

It usually goes like this

ANCIENT MISTERY EVIL must be prevented by the unseemingly normal PC before the Plot Twist kicks in and makes him pivotal to the plot.
 

Beryl77

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I tried it but I didn't really like it, guess it's just not my cup of tea.
As for why it's like so much, fans. People prefer different things, that's really the gist of it and BG does things in a way which the fans like.
It's only revered as such a great game by fans and not by every gamer, like pretty much all the other games who have a strong following. You can't expect to like every game just because it's popular. There is no game which is like by everyone.
 

endtherapture

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boag said:
T_ConX said:
Bioware managed to tone down the difficulty in future releases. Neverwinter Nights (still my favorite game of all time) was a little softer, and I really think KOTOR managed to nail the difficulty sweet-spot.

Then Mass Effect came out... then ME2... and things have been going downhill since. I blame EA...
Allow me to place a linch pin on your OPINION.

Game mechanics have never been Biowares FORTE, they have always depended or ripped off an ancillary or already established system.

Which makes your complaint seem to stem Primarily from the Fact that NO ONE uses the AD&D system anymore for Gameplay.

Thats a valid opinion for you, but using that as basis for why Bioware has supposedly gone downhill will make a lot of people disagree.

If anything Bioware hasnt really changed much, it has continued to recycle the same character archetypes and Overall plot from BG in all their titles with a few exceptions here and there.

It usually goes like this

ANCIENT MISTERY EVIL must be prevented by the unseemingly normal PC before the Plot Twist kicks in and makes him pivotal to the plot.
I thought BG and BG2 had really good plots. You didn't have a clue what was going on for most of the plot. You follow some map to some inn then go investigate some mines then kill some bandits and close their other mine and then it starts coming together - but for a long time you have no idea what the evil is, apart from some bandits and a big armoured dude who killed Gorion. And in BG2 you're chasing some insane mage around for half the game until he nicks your soul and everything gets revealed. You then chase him some more but still have no idea what's happening until the final chapter.

Neverwinter Nights, KoTOR and Mass Effect just had exactly the same stories though with a few specifics changed.

DA:O was a generic story too but that's allowed since it was introducing a whole new universe, so a simple plot managed to introduce all the factions and races and aspects of the lore very well.
 

boag

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endtherapture said:
boag said:
T_ConX said:
Bioware managed to tone down the difficulty in future releases. Neverwinter Nights (still my favorite game of all time) was a little softer, and I really think KOTOR managed to nail the difficulty sweet-spot.

Then Mass Effect came out... then ME2... and things have been going downhill since. I blame EA...
Allow me to place a linch pin on your OPINION.

Game mechanics have never been Biowares FORTE, they have always depended or ripped off an ancillary or already established system.

Which makes your complaint seem to stem Primarily from the Fact that NO ONE uses the AD&D system anymore for Gameplay.

Thats a valid opinion for you, but using that as basis for why Bioware has supposedly gone downhill will make a lot of people disagree.

If anything Bioware hasnt really changed much, it has continued to recycle the same character archetypes and Overall plot from BG in all their titles with a few exceptions here and there.

It usually goes like this

ANCIENT MISTERY EVIL must be prevented by the unseemingly normal PC before the Plot Twist kicks in and makes him pivotal to the plot.
I thought BG and BG2 had really good plots. You didn't have a clue what was going on for most of the plot. You follow some map to some inn then go investigate some mines then kill some bandits and close their other mine and then it starts coming together - but for a long time you have no idea what the evil is, apart from some bandits and a big armoured dude who killed Gorion. And in BG2 you're chasing some insane mage around for half the game until he nicks your soul and everything gets revealed. You then chase him some more but still have no idea what's happening until the final chapter.

Neverwinter Nights, KoTOR and Mass Effect just had exactly the same stories though with a few specifics changed.

DA:O was a generic story too but that's allowed since it was introducing a whole new universe, so a simple plot managed to introduce all the factions and races and aspects of the lore very well.
Tell me which of those didnt follow the formula I gave you?
 

Zeraki

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I tried Baldur's Gate, but I just couldn't get into it(incoming torrent of hate comments about how I'm a "dirty console gamer" for not enjoying it). I was never into D&D, so I guess that has a lot to do with it. It's the same when I tried Planescape: Torment. The story is great, the game's in-game graphics have aged well... but the actual game-play is horrible.

To each their own.
 

endtherapture

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boag said:
endtherapture said:
boag said:
T_ConX said:
ANCIENT MISTERY EVIL must be prevented by the unseemingly normal PC before the Plot Twist kicks in and makes him pivotal to the plot.
I thought BG and BG2 had really good plots. You didn't have a clue what was going on for most of the plot. You follow some map to some inn then go investigate some mines then kill some bandits and close their other mine and then it starts coming together - but for a long time you have no idea what the evil is, apart from some bandits and a big armoured dude who killed Gorion. And in BG2 you're chasing some insane mage around for half the game until he nicks your soul and everything gets revealed. You then chase him some more but still have no idea what's happening until the final chapter.

Neverwinter Nights, KoTOR and Mass Effect just had exactly the same stories though with a few specifics changed.

DA:O was a generic story too but that's allowed since it was introducing a whole new universe, so a simple plot managed to introduce all the factions and races and aspects of the lore very well.
Tell me which of those didnt follow the formula I gave you?
Baldur's Gate 2. Irenicus wasn't an ancient mystery evil. He was just an elven mage tormented by his love for Ellesime, and then blinded by revenge. Nothing was an ancient evil there. You knew from the last game you were a Bhaalspawn, so there was no mystery pivotal plot revelation - you were the plot all along, it was driven by your character. All that happens is half way through the game he gets your soul so you have to get it back. You just happen to save an elven city on the way...It's a very slow paced, well written and tragic adventure story, one of my favourite ever written because of the complexity of Irenicus. He was a real heart wrenching villain (Loghain in DA:O was also great)

Dragon Age Origins had you become pivotal to the plot at the very beginning, after the Joining. There was no insane plot twist, like in KoTOR or Mass Effect.
 

ResonanceGames

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There isn't a lot to say. Baldur's Gate is hard for the first few hours.

News flash: games used to be really hard. They were made for a much smaller niche market that was full of tabletop and war game players. You need to really think about what you're doing.