Can we agree on this? Biggest problem in the world today.

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cuddly_tomato

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Nov 12, 2008
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John_Doe_Damnit said:
Cuddly tomato, your definition of the scientific method is warped out of recognition.

Religion/Irrationalism is the problem

Btw, Tomato, correlation ≠ cause
Naah [http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node6.html#SECTION02121000000000000000]. I was merely warping it out of all recognition, ostensibly using it to demonstrate that you can't establish that atheist societies would fare any better than theocracies and there is even evidence to show that they would be worse. If you can demonstrate that using the scientific method, you need to warp it.

Secularism is the best way to go in the modern world of multiple faiths/cultures. Remove it from the equation of tax and state sponsorship, and let people make up their own minds and believe whatever they wish. History has shown time and again that forcing people to think one way or another ends in tears, or a lot of blood and people being fed into meat grinders.

Nomadic said:
Secularism is essentially atheism through persuation rather than through oppression.
No it isn't. Not even close. Show me some proof that an atheist society would fare better. Where is your example?
 

YouGetWhatsGiven

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Jan 2, 2009
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It is so easy to say there is one big problem for everything bad in the world. Unfortunately, there is not. All people can do is work to fix the little problems that make up the big problems.
 

Nomad

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Aug 3, 2008
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cuddly_tomato said:
No it isn't. Not even close. Show me some proof that an atheist society would fare better. Where is your example?
Yes it is. Very close. (See, if you don't have to back your statements up, neither do I).

And what? I never said anything about atheist societies faring better than any other society. I said quite the opposite, meaning a country's view on religion has close to zero relation to its level of success. So no, I won't show you proof of something that I don't believe in.

Now you show me some proof that a religious society would fare better than an atheist society. And no, don't give me examples of religious/atheist societies and pit them against eachother. You take any random country (the US or Albania, whichever you choose), and you make a thourough analysis of how history would've looked for said country in each scenario. Because you can't compare two different countries, they had other things that separated them (economic policy, availability of raw materials, demographics and so on and so forth). Because really, out of the two of us, you're the only one that's trying to prove something.
 

cuddly_tomato

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John_Doe_Damnit said:
I'm just gonna point to Nomadics last post and nod
No need to do that. Just prove me wrong by showing me the atheist state that has lasted for more than 50 years. That international example to us all. That bastion of freedom, democracy, peace, and all things noble. A nation so beloved by everyone we all want to move there. North Korea [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1131421.stm]. That is an atheist state that has stood the test of time. Why don't anti-theists (not atheists, but anti-theists), just leave these horrid theocracies and go live in North Korea for a while? Get a taste of state sponsored atheism. If you decide that it isn't for you you can just come back, assuming you are still alive of course.

Nomadic said:
Now you show me some proof that a religious society would fare better than an atheist society. And no, don't give me examples of religious/atheist societies and pit them against eachother. You take any random country (the US or Albania, whichever you choose), and you make a thourough analysis of how history would've looked for said country in each scenario. Because you can't compare two different countries, they had other things that separated them (economic policy, availability of raw materials, demographics and so on and so forth). Because really, out of the two of us, you're the only one that's trying to prove something.
So in other words you want me to rewrite some other nations history and pretend what would have been different if it was atheist? And this is scientific is it?

Secular nation = USA, UK, France, Germany, Holand, Norway, Finland, Canada, Australia, Spain. Many religions in those nations, but they are secular. Secular is state neutrality on religion. Not trying to sponsor atheism. They tolerate religions in their countries.

Nations with state atheism = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Communist Albania, The Soviet Union, The People's Republic of China, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, Mongolian People's Republic, North Korea.

Any more?

Ohh... The People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Democratic_Party_of_Afghanistan]

Marvelous guys. This thread is about solving the worlds problems, not creating a fuckload of them.

This isn't rocket science guys. To stop religion you will actually have to force people to think differently. That requires the kind of nations that atheist states (and theocracies) have always been - oppressive and despotic.
 

Steelfists

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I find the self-hate fest that this thread has become idiotic. Or at least the first page. I couldn't be arsed to read more.

1. The human race is not "intrinsically stupid". We are intrinsically violent. That is why we still exist. While the usefulness of violence is debatable in modern times, this does NOT make us stupid.
And defining stupidity as a foolish and Disney-like (couldn't think of a better way to describe it) mentality. Violence is a very useful tool which has been used to great effect and profitability by many peoples, nations and governments. Such as the USA (and I'm not saying its a bad thing) which leads me onto my second point.
2. Stop hating on the US. Someone above said something like "They are not competent", he/she is an idiot. The US has built its empire (and it has one) very intelligently, they exploited Europe when it was at its weakest, and rose to the top of the pile. It is still the dominant force in the world, American culture permeates every aspect of Western and sometimes Eastern life.
What profits one faction of humans will always be a bad thing for another faction. Until we all unite under one banner (which will not happen for a while, I think) this will happen all the time. Stop bitching about it and calling the human race evil. We aren't. We just look out for number one. Which is another reason why our race still exists.
 

Revolves

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Jan 31, 2009
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Be warned ye all who read this, this is a somewhat stretched theory at the root of the world's problems.

The root of all the problemes is a strong segregation of the peoples of this world. I don't mean racial segregation, well maybe, but only to a small extent. I mean those things you see on maps. Those lines, that divide huge landmasses. That label one side of the line as entirely diffrent to the other one. You know what I'm talking about.

Borders.

Borders signify lines that seperate people, segregate them. Suddendly the segregated humans start to band together with the fellow 'countrymen', and they find that relationships with people from the other side of the artifical line to be harder. Over the years, decades, centuries, the line showed signs of fading, espically in today's world (The information age), which allows for communcation with fellow men from the othe side of the line indirrectly through the internet. Dirrectly it's still quite a pain to step over the line.

Now while this is a rather unpleasent effect of the segregation via a line, one could still see postive aspects in the line segregation concept. These could be increased friendship inside the line due to the conrtrast of other people, companianship inside the line, easier to govern, etc. But truely the most double edged part of this concept is the fact that pride arrises from these aritfical lines.

Pride.

Pride that it is food coming from inside the perimeter of the line that you live in. Pride that people born in your line's perimeter are able to beat them. Pride that the people inside the line have a unique codex/way of life (culture). Etc.

But the evil twin of Pride, Wrath, makes a truely horrid display. Wrath could be the way that people outside the line are coming into the line instead of remaining where they should be and having their own jobs, instead of the ones produced by an ever so prideful country. Wrath that we must give resources from inside the line perimeter to those outside it. Wrath.

If ammassed greatly enough, wrath can lead to war, the destruction of the infrastructure, the murder of people, etc outside the perimeter of a line. Leaders, even in the middle ages, need the wrath of the people to be able to set things into motion, which are unethical and goes against ones conscience. If they instead force this movement without wrath, then revolutions occur, the one in power is taken out of power, and a leader who understands the concept of wrath takes over eventually, as failed leaders, who refrain from using wrath to their means, will be taken off their throne of power, either via a revolution, a new president, etc. So in the end we're left with wrathful countries, between which tensions keep rising. A world, or a part of the world, without those lines will lead to bigger understanding between those who were segregated by lines before, which will change the philisophies of the man, leading to a more peacful soceity.

As an example one could look at the EU, which strives to remove those lines.

I'll say this again: the root of the problem are artificially created lines which first served to be able to better control the development of societies, but then lead to pride, and wrath.

And this segregation is not only caused by lines on a map - but also by diffrent religions, cultures, but it is not as drastic as the 'borders' concept. It would be a choice between a more utopian society, where freedom is sacrificed for happiness, or a freer, more angry world, at least in the perspective of the other segregating factors, but removing the 'borders' between people, or at least fading them to slowly remove them, will cause far less loss of freedom compared to the other methods, and at the same time reduce pride, which eventually reduces the violence, leading to a more happy world.

Note: I derribtly used 'lines' instead of 'borders' to break the illusion that borders are rather natural things.
 

TheRightToArmBears

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Eldritch Warlord said:
Now that I think about it aside from both being affluent and powerful European societies the US and Rome have almost nothing in common.
Er, since when was America European?
 

Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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Steelfists said:
...Stop bitching about it and calling our race evil. We aren't. We just look out for number one. Which is another reason why our race still exists.
I know I said I wasn't going to post, but I'm changing that slightly. I still will not post on the 'religious' aspect of this thread, since Cuddly Tomato is holding the position of 'tolerance' very well.

But I will post here to make on comment. The US isn't a 'race'. It's a country. A nationality. I hear you on the of the points you made, don't get me wrong. But, again, the US isn't a 'race'. There is nothing 'racial' about being a US citizen.
 

Shadowtek

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Jul 30, 2008
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Archaon6044 said:
Shadowtek said:
Ego. The whole world says their the best, when most are equal in more ways than they realize. So I believe the biggest problem is the rulers of each country have egos that are way out of control. (or the worlds dependence on fossil fuels.)
but which nation shouts the loudest?

please forgive me for the ignorant hate-crime the rest of this post is about to become

most of europe looks at america and your rabid patriotism and sighs deeply.
the only reason your the 'greatest nation on earth' is because you declared yourself so, and just happen to be the biggest MEDC going at the moment.
we look at you and see an excited and spoiled child (in terms of history) who's just learned that he get what he wants by screaming at his parents (that would be us, over here in europe with a history longer than 200 years)

eventaully china will take over, and they WILL be better than yo, but you won't be able to handle not being the kid with the biggest collection of toys.

/ignorant hate-crime
honestly, I agree with you. Being over here isnt all that fun if your not a "die hard" patriot. I feel the government over here is just as corrupt as ever and when you speak up about it, you are hushed (or reformed). For far too long this country has believed it is this worlds only super power and eventually when another country becomes a super power America dosent like it. We start publicizing why we need to go over there and we continue to make a mockery of things. America is about as close to a communist country as you can get without having an enforcer on your back for every slip up (as long as you dont draw attention to yourself).
 

Social Pariah

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Ah... the decadent west... human nature would be the biggest problem, especially humans when in groups larger than ten, such as countries. Everybody feels so much better than others at certain geographical locations, until countries are gotten rid of completely then we'll be much the same, segregating each other off.
 

Steelfists

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Baby Tea said:
Steelfists said:
...Stop bitching about it and calling our race evil. We aren't. We just look out for number one. Which is another reason why our race still exists.
I know I said I wasn't going to post, but I'm changing that slightly. I still will not post on the 'religious' aspect of this thread, since Cuddly Tomato is holding the position of 'tolerance' very well.

But I will post here to make on comment. The US isn't a 'race'. It's a country. A nationality. I hear you on the of the points you made, don't get me wrong. But, again, the US isn't a 'race'. There is nothing 'racial' about being a US citizen.
I was referring to humans, but I'll edit it.

Since I'm not American, I thought it would be obvious, but you can't tell by reading my post.
 

SquirrelPants

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Dec 22, 2008
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The biggest problem today is that people are still trying to work toward the utopia theory, which is impossible. People should understand that by now.
At least, that's the biggest problem in my mind. Other than that, I suppose governments in general would rank pretty high.
 
Feb 18, 2009
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RedDiablo said:
I would say pride is the world's biggest problem. Because we think we are better than others, we kill others for power and money. We destroy the environment cause we think we can own Mother Nature, and we spend too much cause we want more. I think Earth's biggest problem is just our hubris. We think we are superior to everything.
I tend to believe that pride is totally acceptable if it´s balanced by equal amount of humility. It´s perfectly OK and natural to take pride in one´s work. It´s the disturbing lack of humility that makes pride a negative feeling.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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RAWKSTAR said:
Bad things - if we had more good things it would be better.
Its about time people woke up to these bad things and replaced them with good things ... I agree!

Being serious I think the No.1 problem in the world is that we haven't visited other worlds.

If we were to visit Mars or Venus ... we'd realise how awesome Earth is <.<

I mean, give it serious thought ... you put down a group of people on Mars or Venus ... not one single person is going to say "This would be a great place for a picnic" ... or "I wonder what the land prices are like here? I could so see myself having a nice cottage overlooking that giant sea of molten rock, with gushing geysers pumping sulphuric acid"

Only reason why people like the moon is ... because you can still see Earth well enough to identify small European nations! :D "Not much here ... but look at the view!!"
 

Shivari

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I really don't feel anything for this country; I'm not patriotic in anyway, as I see it as rather irrational (although, I really wouldn't want to live anywhere else, either), but I can't agree that the US is the biggest problem in the world today, or even a that huge of a problem in and of itself.

First off, calling our existence a parallel to the Roman Empire is rather silly, as we're both separate types of powers. Maybe 90 years ago you could have made a case that the US was turning into a modern Rome with imperialism being the trendy think among countries, but we also weren't the largest imperialist either, so saying that the US was the most Rome-like wouldn't really be correct. And looking at the present day, we're not an empire in the traditional sense at all, most of our power we have comes from the influence we have all around the world, whether it be economically, politically, whatever.

And we could argue about the good and bad decisions that the US has made over the years, but if someone is going to be the superpower with so much influence, I'm glad it's us, and not a country with ideas that would destabilize and cause more tension than we ever will. One big thing I think the US government should do if it wants to be smart is really work at moving upcoming powers such as China and India to think like us, and work in ways that would continue to have powers at the top that aren't going to stir trouble up.

Oh, and once again, the US has made mistakes, and not everything we do is necessarily the best thing, but it's good to have a country on top with strong beliefs in freedom and equality, as that is much more positive influence than the opposite. I don't think we should force democracy and capitalism with socialism hints onto places where it won't work, but I'm glad that the top spot isn't taken up by someone who would force things on places where it wouldn't work all over the world without much thought or hesitation. I generally like what the US is, as secular state with decent values, and it's not perfect, but we could be a hell of a lot worse. If America was really a huge sore on the rest of the world and nothing was worse, I think it'd be rather obvious.

Anyways, I don't think religion is a huge problem either, as it has it's place in society, no matter what you think. I'm an atheist, but I think religion has a foothold that you can't really take out of a large number of people, and it would be rather silly to try to do so. Now, wars over religions are never good, but I'm not going to say that religion is at fault for everything bad, as it does serve some people good, and if people want it, then by all means let them. It's not as stifling on things as some like to say it is, and while it does breed some problems (like everything does), it still has its bright sides that we can't just rip out anytime soon. If the heavy majority of the world chooses to give it up then that's all well and good, but I'm going to let people believe in what they want, as doing anything otherwise is rather foolish.
 

Caliostro

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Jan 23, 2008
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cuddly_tomato said:
You know those idiots who talk in the news about all the crime the GTA games cause? About all the school shootings being the responsibility of Maralyn Manson? You are doing the exact same thing when you blame religion for the terrible things that people do.
Fallacy. GTA hands you over a controller, says "hey, it's a game, do whatever, nobody is really getting hurt, it's a game...now beat that hooker with a baseball bat!", Manson does music...

...Religion hands you over a 2000 years old sci-fi story, copied, edited, translated and otherwise modified more times than god himself could count, originally written by people who saw invisible man in space and heard voices in their head, and tells you to live your life according to it. Tells you that if you don't, you go to hell, a place where you suffer for all eternity, which is sort of like a second life where you can't die and live forever and everything is conveniently vague and unexplained...

...And while you're at it ostracize, dehumanize, infra-humanize, beat, murder and burn these guys that think your hallucinations are wrong!
 

RedDiablo

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Nov 8, 2008
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Incredible Bullshitting Man said:
RedDiablo said:
I would say pride is the world's biggest problem. Because we think we are better than others, we kill others for power and money. We destroy the environment cause we think we can own Mother Nature, and we spend too much cause we want more. I think Earth's biggest problem is just our hubris. We think we are superior to everything.
I tend to believe that pride is totally acceptable if it´s balanced by equal amount of humility. It´s perfectly OK and natural to take pride in one´s work. It´s the disturbing lack of humility that makes pride a negative feeling.
I agree with you on your statement. I think pride that's balanced by humility is good, but an excess of pride is bad. It reminds me of the Golden Mean by Aristotle. Always keep things in balance, don't let one side get too big.