Can we please go back to having fun?

[UmberHulk]

Oh no some one called me a racist I can no longer enjoy video games. Seriously dude your being kind of pathetic as many others have said if you don't want to take part in this argument you can just play your games no one is stopping you.

 

[Fappy]

Why aren't the feminists attacking the porn industry then? It's pretty much the same gratification of male power fantasy as SOME (not all) games have. You can't attack one part of society while accepting its synonymous counterparts.

Where have you been? Feminists have been railing against the porn industry for literally decades!

I was wondering about that

But I think it goes to show the intent was more of a "shut up feminists" thing. He didn't even bother to check. And the logic is bad anyways, people don't need to campaign equally against all things. Lots of causes exist, people pick for various reasons. Like people into games are more likely to speak up about games and not porn.

It actually highlights one thing that really bothers me about all this. A lot of gamers who complain about "feminism ruining games" really don't know much of anything about what feminism is, its history or why it has been such a powerful force for so many decades. In all honesty, this campaign feminists are engaging in here is nowhere near as aggressive or poignant as many of the others we have been involved in in our long history. Video game culture is important, sure, but I would argue that it's influence on the way women are perceived in society is dwarfed by the influence pornography has. That said, porn is a far trickier subject to tackle and there's no way I want to open that can of worms here.

 

[XDSkyFreak]

Oh no some one called me a racist I can no longer enjoy video games. Seriously dude your being kind of pathetic as many others have said if you don't want to take part in this argument you can just play your games no one is stopping you.

so why msut everyone asume this is personal? When I specifically adresed gamers as a whole? trying to call for calm and reason over all the shit flinging, trying to remind people why we are here in the first place? Oh, right because it's easier to dismiss me that way. See the thing is I care about games, I want change. I bloody want more female characters that aren't sex dolls. But I also see something you forget: all this scandal and death threats and all these wars are doing the exact oposite of helping gaming evolve and be taken seriously. They are simply painting all of us as assholes, and are destroying any reputation games might have had as a form of art. This isn't personal. This isn;t affecting my enjoyment of games. It's affecting any chance this industry has of meaningfull growth by flooding it with hatred and conflict and scandals. And both sides here are all too hapy to start their arguments not as civil people, but by imediatry stating "the oposite side is wrong", thus ruining any chance of actual debate.

God so many people not bothering to actually read this and simply look at the title then post.

 

[XDSkyFreak]

This is rapidly devolving into a flame war. i asked people not to do this, but it seems I may have to call on the help of the devs to delete the thread if this goes on and try to have this discussion later when things are calmer. And as @Darth Rosenberg pointed out, work a bit on my phrasing of the issue (thanks for that btw).

 

[Panda Pandemic]

Do you want gaming to be taken seriously? I thought most of you did. I thought most of you wanted our medium to be looked at as artistic and status quo changing. Do you really?

Because, all of this shit right here? It doesn't seem like you do. Whenever someone brings up sexism, racism, or hell, anything political at all around games, you're damn quick to jump on the "They're just games! Shut up!" bandwagon. But at the same time you seem to want the rest of pop culture to look at gaming as some big important thing that can do real good in the world.

You can't have it both ways. Either we go through shit like this, or we can continue to not be taken seriously.

I honestly don't care that much either way, but you guys seem to. Do you want us to be taken seriously or don't you? You decide.

So they should shut up about issues important to them because... oh because you don't find it fun. Most compelling thing I have ever seen. They need to stop thinking about their petty issues and ought to consider if it's hampering your fun.

It also seems to have escaped you that people with these messages can be gamers too. You don't own the damn hobby and they don't need *your* invitation. No one had to ask for them.

Also you have no evidence change will happen on its own. Throughout history people tend to have to do something to achieve change. Change has to have a reason that it is happening.

As I admited in my phrasing issue, my message was not to ignore these issues. It was for people to not try and enforce a particular set of ideals as right and everything else as wrong. And not forget why we began playing games in the first place. My issue is not that these issues exist, if you would have bothered to read the whole argument, I was all for change, I am almost 100% certain that inclusivity will become a part of the industry and sexism will get toned down. What I am sick of is people trying to force X and Y set of morals on games NOW and call gamers and all who might argue anything against them, no matter how logical or valid, scum/pigs/entitled white guys/etc.

And change will happen because of these people, but not through hostility. It will happpen when the core of game developers come to embrace those ideals. Now tell me: what is more likely? That the current body of devs will sudenly embrace your ideals and start altering all their projects to fit your moral view? Or that these devs will carry on and when they retire be replaced by devs with different sets of views that match your? To say change doesn't happen without it beeing imposed i stupid. The independece war was centuries ago. There is no need to get torches and pitchforks and march in the street. There are better methods than this. When you try to impose change and use violent and insulting means you will garner a violent and insulting response ESPECIALY ON THE INTERNET. And you will also loose any kind of moral high ground you might have had.

Where has anything been imposed? Give an example where they were somehow enforced. If not, then it just looks like standard complaining about words, somehow blowing up mere words into some sort of edict.

You know ... you just joined here for the controversy and jsut want to start shit. This thred isn;t for you. Just leave.

But to answer your question: When you call for change, like say sarkesian did, but when some people object in any way or don't imediatly adhere to your views and demands they imediatly get labelled as sexist or any slew of other insulting stereotypes, you are trying to silence and dismiss these people as unimportant so as to reduce any form of oposition to your views becoming standard. That is imposing your views by trying to silence and dismiss any and all oposition.

Lol? Um I'll just ignore the bit where you try to order me around.

So you have no actual examples. You have yelling and you are declaring it to be enforcing and an imposition. Sorry, someone calling you sexist doesn't impose anything on you. People having opinions is not an imposition. As an exame about something *real*, much as I hate the anti-gay bigots them just calling it sinful wouldn't be an imposition, it is an imposition when they try to pass laws and crap. Words alone are not an imposition .

Hey! You're trying to silence me. That's actually pretty funny.

Denigration of your oponents has allways been a mechanism of silencing oposition. So whenever groups X (frminists or any other indignated minority that games don't sudenly cater to them when they became a part of the market for only a year or so) denigrated group Y (in this case gamers) for having any form of disenting opinion (like you started doing in this whole thing, but hey a flamer troll who joined the site exactly when the whole controversy started just to write inflamatory remarks will do that) that is a form of opresion. It is a form of removing criticism and oposition, so that the particular set of views of group X become the norm. In other words it's imposing a set of views as right by making all criticism apear fake. And the funny thing is THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! When Sarkesian started her message against sexism in the industry she started by labelling current gamers as sexists, making a baseless alegation against a alrge group of people and basicaly saying "you are all wrong and I'm right, no shut up and learn from me as I instruct you on your wrong". It doesn't matter that her message was the right one, it got lost in insults and shit flinging.

And before you try to say things like "You're tryint to shut me up" I refer you to what you atempted to do in your first comment: shut me up and label me as yet another gamer not wanting change, when the exact oposite is what I wrote. My council was not against change, it was against this whole stupid atitude of us versus them and get thigns done now.

And every time I level and argument you bassicaly start yelling "you're wrong, shut up" basically as soon as I post ... yeah. Obvious flamer is obvious. I can't silence or make you go away. what I can do with someone who just joined to start shit is ignore you. So next time try to perhaps think a bit before you jump in and start flaming (as i specifically requested people not to do, but hey who cares enough to be civil).

You are starting off with what is called a fallacy of composition. Denigration has been used to silence opposition therefore this case of using an insult is an attempt to silence someone. Doesn't work like that. Insults exist that are not an attempt to 'silence' you. And anyways if it is purely insults then that is not any kind of oppression. You can ignore it and jack shit will actually happen about it. You can just ignore them. If you can do that then it isn't a matter of imposition. Imposition would imply you can't just ignore them.

And making your criticism look not very credible is still not a form of imposition. You don't have a right to be taken seriously. And hell you could even call it a problem but they imposed nothing on you.

I also never flamed you nor tried to 'silence' you. You're pulling shit out of thin air and saying it came from me . At most I implied you were being selfish in my first post. Quite frankly the reasons you presents were selfish. It was about you and your fun and *your* hobby.

I also never told you to shut up. That only happened in reverse. For someone apparently so sensitive to another suggesting a negative attribute about them you sure like to insult me and make a lot of personal accusations

 

[Erttheking]

I haven't truly had fun at least in online competitive gaming since people abandoned Quake and UT for easier online experiences of CS, Halo, and CoD. Like they have the privilege to win any matches without dedicating their life to the game.

Yeah, I'm pretty glad that we left that part of gaming behind us.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I go back to having "fun" a lot. Then here comes Ubisoft with Farcry 2. Playable women are cut. They seemed had pressed to make a female player character for a long time which is pretty annoying, but largely ignored until watch_Dogs and the arrogant "We know how you play"(or something like that.) advertisement. I got a ray of light with AC Liberation, and maybe with some irony, Child of Light.
Then AC: Unity, an Farcry 4 actively removed women as they had planned to have them playable in both games. What capacity? Doesn't matter to me.
I can't really ignore getting kicked in the teeth, you see, and getting kicked in the teeth isn't fun. Not for me, anyhow. I don't know what y'all might be into.
The incident reminded me why I can't have steady fun with the gaming industry. This isn't an isolated incident. Ubisoft isn't the only company that pulled this.
Incidents have been happening like this since forever.

I like having fun playing as an awesome, competent woman in an industry of little innovation, and very little in the way of new features to make me interested in the game itself. Been there, done that feels kinda common.
NPCs don't matter to me, really. It's all about the playable characters. Playable characters are the most competent, IMO due to the fact the game can't be completed without them.

Videogames are my escapism, entertainment, and so forth. All the wonderful stuff games offer. Imagine my dismay when the stark realities of the gaming industry's politics against characters that aren't white, straight, and male. It's basically "tadaa! You're second class! An outcast!"
Except, that as an asian, female, lesbian, I feel like I'm beyond second class as the industry doesn't seem to wanna let you be the latter 2 very often. Yeah, once in a blue moon there's games that accommodate one of those (well, asian heritage aside), but more than one in a playable character? That's even rarer.

So, being reminded of this crap kinda kills my ability to go back to having "fun" for a while.

This isn't to say I want all games to have women, or some checklist be made. I liked the story of GTAV well enough. Games (even from companies that prolly couldn't make a female lead if they were paid to) can be made with male leads. I just hate it when politics get involved which is probably extremely often.
I support creative freedom far more than the industry does in my case.

If I can't be mad at issues like I described, then we're done talking.
I'd imagine others are mad, too! That's why these incidents create so much passionate outcry. At least in part. That's why we can't have fun all the time.
People are getting screwed over. Developers being told they can't do something with their game by the -industry-, and a long span of time between non straight white male leads, partly because of this lack of freedom. It's possibly why that games that don't have women that don't let you play as women from the start to finish get targeted.
I blame the industry more than the gamers because the industry can change a game while it's being made. Gamers very rarely get the chance to do that. Gamers can almost only complain after the fact and almost never change things.

I keep saying that if we didn't have so few examples to pick from, then we'd have more to talk about, more odds that people will be happy, and less hostility. Choices people -know- about without having to scour the internet for as a great deal aren't that dedicated, and in my experience, to find games that don't make you play as straight white males do require that outside of MMORPGS, and character creation games hat often force the personality to be watered down because the script often mirrors the male, and female choices.

That isn't to say I don't have fun. I do, and there's game I look forward to. It's just that the party gets pooped.

 

[SNCommand]

I never stopped having fun, some people though can't be happy unless the world is exactly like they want it

 

[Sensia v7.03]

Why aren't the feminists attacking the porn industry then? It's pretty much the same gratification of male power fantasy as SOME (not all) games have. You can't attack one part of society while accepting its synonymous counterparts.

Where have you been? Feminists have been railing against the porn industry for literally decades!

I was wondering about that

But I think it goes to show the intent was more of a "shut up feminists" thing. He didn't even bother to check. And the logic is bad anyways, people don't need to campaign equally against all things. Lots of causes exist, people pick for various reasons. Like people into games are more likely to speak up about games and not porn.

It actually highlights one thing that really bothers me about all this. A lot of gamers who complain about "feminism ruining games" really don't know much of anything about what feminism is, its history or why it has been such a powerful force for so many decades. In all honesty, this campaign feminists are engaging in here is nowhere near as aggressive or poignant as many of the others we have been involved in in our long history. Video game culture is important, sure, but I would argue that it's influence on the way women are perceived in society is dwarfed by the influence pornography has. That said, porn is a far trickier subject to tackle and there's no way I want to open that can of worms here.

Pornography is actually a very simple topic to handle. It's something that can be empowering for some, is an attrocity for others, and with loads of people in between who don't really care. Some feel that working within pornography is a great way to express yourself, even though it may be unconventional in some peoples' eyes, and others will instantly jump to the conclusion that because of it's percieved nature, it is a form of regressive behaviour. However, this isn't universal at all: it all depends on the context of the content's creation. You can generally tell when someone is being forced into something against their will, and who is willing and consenting to do whatever it is they're doing at the time.

I know you said you didn't want to start a discussion on pornography, but I think we can draw some parallels here with gaming. Solutions to these things are much simpler than a lot of people realise, but unfortunately it's very easy for things to snowball whenever anyone talks about these things, whether it comes from genuine misinterpretation, over-thinking the issue, or even just being intentionally malicious. This past month has only been the worst it's been for gaming, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Fappy]

Why aren't the feminists attacking the porn industry then? It's pretty much the same gratification of male power fantasy as SOME (not all) games have. You can't attack one part of society while accepting its synonymous counterparts.

Where have you been? Feminists have been railing against the porn industry for literally decades!

I was wondering about that

But I think it goes to show the intent was more of a "shut up feminists" thing. He didn't even bother to check. And the logic is bad anyways, people don't need to campaign equally against all things. Lots of causes exist, people pick for various reasons. Like people into games are more likely to speak up about games and not porn.

It actually highlights one thing that really bothers me about all this. A lot of gamers who complain about "feminism ruining games" really don't know much of anything about what feminism is, its history or why it has been such a powerful force for so many decades. In all honesty, this campaign feminists are engaging in here is nowhere near as aggressive or poignant as many of the others we have been involved in in our long history. Video game culture is important, sure, but I would argue that it's influence on the way women are perceived in society is dwarfed by the influence pornography has. That said, porn is a far trickier subject to tackle and there's no way I want to open that can of worms here.

Pornography is actually a very simple topic to handle. It's something that can be empowering for some, is an attrocity for others, and with loads of people in between who don't really care. Some feel that working within pornography is a great way to express yourself, even though it may be unconventional in some peoples' eyes, and others will instantly jump to the conclusion that because of it's percieved nature, it is a form of regressive behaviour. However, this isn't universal at all: it all depends on the context of the content's creation. You can generally tell when someone is being forced into something against their will, and who is willing and consenting to do whatever it is they're doing at the time.

I know you said you didn't want to start a discussion on pornography, but I think we can draw some parallels here with gaming. Solutions to these things are much simpler than a lot of people realise, but unfortunately it's very easy for things to snowball whenever anyone talks about these things, whether it comes from genuine misinterpretation, over-thinking the issue, or even just being intentionally malicious. This past month has only been the worst it's been for gaming, as far as I'm aware.

We're going to have the biggest community-wide hangover once this is all over, I can assure you XD

As for the pornography thing... I agree that it's not a black & white issue. As a feminist, I have some issues with some aspects of it but believe it serves a purpose in society. I firmly believe people have the right to express themselves any way they want so long as it isn't hurting anyone. On the whole it may perpetuate some rotten ideas in our society, but I also believe that it needs to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. If I can't condemn a young woman for leveraging her own body for entertainment to pay for college (it is her body after all), I can hardly blame the person filming and distributing the film as per their contractual agreement. I think the best we can hope to do is identify the potential problems it can create in our society and educate people about them. The industry will adjust with its audience and hopefully (mostly) everyone will be happy.

That's my 2 cents, and with that I am done discussing porn XD

 

[Sensia v7.03]

Why aren't the feminists attacking the porn industry then? It's pretty much the same gratification of male power fantasy as SOME (not all) games have. You can't attack one part of society while accepting its synonymous counterparts.

Where have you been? Feminists have been railing against the porn industry for literally decades!

I was wondering about that

But I think it goes to show the intent was more of a "shut up feminists" thing. He didn't even bother to check. And the logic is bad anyways, people don't need to campaign equally against all things. Lots of causes exist, people pick for various reasons. Like people into games are more likely to speak up about games and not porn.

It actually highlights one thing that really bothers me about all this. A lot of gamers who complain about "feminism ruining games" really don't know much of anything about what feminism is, its history or why it has been such a powerful force for so many decades. In all honesty, this campaign feminists are engaging in here is nowhere near as aggressive or poignant as many of the others we have been involved in in our long history. Video game culture is important, sure, but I would argue that it's influence on the way women are perceived in society is dwarfed by the influence pornography has. That said, porn is a far trickier subject to tackle and there's no way I want to open that can of worms here.

Pornography is actually a very simple topic to handle. It's something that can be empowering for some, is an attrocity for others, and with loads of people in between who don't really care. Some feel that working within pornography is a great way to express yourself, even though it may be unconventional in some peoples' eyes, and others will instantly jump to the conclusion that because of it's percieved nature, it is a form of regressive behaviour. However, this isn't universal at all: it all depends on the context of the content's creation. You can generally tell when someone is being forced into something against their will, and who is willing and consenting to do whatever it is they're doing at the time.

I know you said you didn't want to start a discussion on pornography, but I think we can draw some parallels here with gaming. Solutions to these things are much simpler than a lot of people realise, but unfortunately it's very easy for things to snowball whenever anyone talks about these things, whether it comes from genuine misinterpretation, over-thinking the issue, or even just being intentionally malicious. This past month has only been the worst it's been for gaming, as far as I'm aware.

We're going to have the biggest community-wide hangover once this is all over, I can assure you XD

As for the pornography thing... I agree that it's not a black & white issue. As a feminist, I have some issues with some aspects of it but believe it serves a purpose in society. I firmly believe people have the right to express themselves any way they want so long as it isn't hurting anyone. On the whole it may perpetuate some rotten ideas in our society, but I also believe that it needs to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. If I can't condemn a young woman for leveraging her own body for entertainment to pay for college (it is her body after all), I can hardly blame the person filming and distributing the film as per their contractual agreement. I think the best we can hope to do is identify the potential problems it can create in our society and educate people about them. The industry will adjust with its audience and hopefully (mostly) everyone will be happy.

That's my 2 cents, and with that I am done discussing porn XD

Which is fair enough. ^^ I think we're on a similar mindset on the matter, although I'm not so convinced that pornography itself perpetuates the occasional negative idea or stereotype myself. I feel that's more to do with the people who percieve it in that manner, and is more indicative of a certain type of individual's mentality than anything else. And if that group is large enough, then it can appear to bleed into larger aspects of society as a result.

And with that, that's me done with this for now too. XD

 

[Vault101]

anip.

you call for fun then write an angry condescending rant with a mis use of capitals and expect people not to take issue with it?

I believe they call that shooting yourself in the foot

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh well, seems nobody wants to discuss this. I'll just go back to *checks steam* oh hey new update to WFTO. Or maybe get some sleep.

What's to discuss here? Aside from the notion that your speech addressed pretty much no real human on any side of the issue, let alone people who are likely to discuss it. You may have actually found the one way to be worse than the people screaming "SJW" at anyone who thinks women in games might be a neat idea.

If you want to go back to having fun, have fun. I just don't get the point of this thread. You're not talking about having fun, you're retreading the same things that aren't fun that everyone has been talking about that you ostensibly do not, and doing it in a super condescending fashion.

If you want to change the tone, don't do it by lecturing. Make some threads or something. Hell, I tried that, and people didn't go for them. I don't think you're going to change the tone, but making threads about actual fun would be a better way to do it.

No, and anyone who thinks so is trying to divert attention from the real issues, and is part of the MRA/Feminist/Gaming journalist conspiracy. Yes, they're all part of the same conspiracy. It's all a bid for attention, I tell you. Open your eyes, sheeple.

Oh shit, someone's onto us! We must silence you!

Spoiler: With This!

kittens if you don't tell!

Do you want gaming to be taken seriously? I thought most of you did. I thought most of you wanted our medium to be looked at as artistic and status quo changing. Do you really?

Because, all of this shit right here? It doesn't seem like you do. Whenever someone brings up sexism, racism, or hell, anything political at all around games, you're damn quick to jump on the "They're just games! Shut up!" bandwagon. But at the same time you seem to want the rest of pop culture to look at gaming as some big important thing that can do real good in the world.

You can't have it both ways. Either we go through shit like this, or we can continue to not be taken seriously.

I honestly don't care that much either way, but you guys seem to. Do you want us to be taken seriously or don't you? You decide.

The worst part is there will be no lesson learned. I'm just waiting for the next batch of "why do people look down on gamers" threads. Because like Winter, they're coming.

No, I think what's worse than that is we effectively circled the wagons around people who resorted to terrorist tactics. The guys who called in bomb threats and made death threats. And then we wonder why we're seen as violent, misogynistic, thin-skinned children.

 

[Dragonlayer]

I miss those days when the majority of the threads in the gaming section were talk about games, now it's all talk about people, media and a company someone doesn't like or to shit on a game that's on a console.

I honestly don't think this "level" of discussion would have arisen outside of the annual game release drought: just hold on for another month or so and we'll be right back to being disgusted with the amount of sexism/being disgusted with anyone who brings up amounts of sexism enjoying games!

 

[Pink Gregory]

I've been having fun all this time.

Haven't you?

Isn't it just enough to be at peace in your own world?

 

[XDSkyFreak]

Oh well, seems nobody wants to discuss this. I'll just go back to *checks steam* oh hey new update to WFTO. Or maybe get some sleep.

What's to discuss here? Aside from the notion that your speech addressed pretty much no real human on any side of the issue, let alone people who are likely to discuss it. You may have actually found the one way to be worse than the people screaming "SJW" at anyone who thinks women in games might be a neat idea.

If you want to go back to having fun, have fun. I just don't get the point of this thread. You're not talking about having fun, you're retreading the same things that aren't fun that everyone has been talking about that you ostensibly do not, and doing it in a super condescending fashion.

If you want to change the tone, don't do it by lecturing. Make some threads or something. Hell, I tried that, and people didn't go for them. I don't think you're going to change the tone, but making threads about actual fun would be a better way to do it.

One last time before I let this die: yeah, I can get into a bit of lecturing. Comes with the age and the job. What I wanted out of all this is to maybe get people to put down the guns and act like decent human beeings. Aaaand I got shot down for trying, mostly by people who just read the title. Serves me right for calling on people to stop this insane train wreck that isn't making the gaming industry change, it's just destroying whatever image it had and makes gamers look like the monsters fox news described. It seems I should have listened to a younger friend who told me not to bother, because people will keep this mess going as long as they like, reason logic or comon sense be damned.