Canadian Study: Piracy Created by Greedy Capitalists
- Thread starter Greg Tito
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I think my post record will show that I do not look favorably upon piracy and am inclined to think that most excuses given for piracy are just flimsy rationalizations designed to help someone do something they know is wrong.Therumancer said:
This, however, is one case where I can fully understand why. I can purchase a brand new collectors edition version of a hot new game using funds gained in less than a half day of work and as such the price is trivial for me. But I recognize that, as people move further down the economic ladder (and I'm not terribly high on it myself), purchasing games increasingly becomes an absurd luxury item. Someone who gets paid minimum wage must labor for a full working day to purchase a new console game for example. Slide far enough down the spectrum and the purchase of a game is impossible or, at the very least, incredibly unwise.
In places where the purchase of a console requires the expenditure of an equivalent portion of one's income to be as monumental a decision as a new car purchase is to me and game purchases might require a full month or more of labor to pay for there really are just the two options: steal it (and play) or don't play it at all.
It seems to me that the problem here is a very real version of "but it's too expensive to own through legitimate means" of the most common argument supporting piracy (usually put before "but this publicly traded business just wants money!). It stands to reason that any profit on such games is better than the zero profit they get now. What is there to stop manufacturers from selling a bare bones iteration of a game for 1/5th the price, especially if the game is released a few months (most game sales take place during the opening month anyhow) to a few years later? Sure, you might not be making much off such a thing and it is a price point where you'd have to move an absurd volume of games in order to turn a profit on the average triple a game (right now the number of 60 dollar games that needs to be sold to cover the costs of the average triple A game is around 2 million), but at least you'd make something.
I think this is an insight that is commonly lost on the piracy debate. It is a common conundrum in the world. We have a problem that we want to solve and even the means to solve the problem but, in the final accounting, we often come to realize that we cannot stomach the solution for one reason or another. There are solutions to the piracy problem even in first world nations but those solutions would generally ensure that virtually no games were sold. Thus why we see (in piracy and other matters) people taking routes that will not solve the problem in any real way but somehow these people are comforted by the fact that they're doing something.Therumancer said:
The only other defense of piracy I tend to begrudgingly agree has merit is this very situation. If no one is willing to take money in exchange for a product (a price you might have been perfectly willing to pay), what is the harm in pirating it? They already lost the sale by refusing to take part in the first place.Therumancer said:
While I generally agree with your point here I think you do your argument a disservice. There is a minimum price a Bently can be sold for and turn a profit, a price that is easily tens of thousands of dollars. Ignoring the R&D costs one must pay for the base components, the salaries of people turning base components into car parts, the salaries of people who assemble the car, and the salaries of people who maintain all the equipment directly associated with the manufacture of said parts. Then you must pay various transport costs all while realizing that the people who will inevitably sell the product are going to want a cut for themselves. By contrast, the absolute necessary cost of selling a game such that the game itself (i.e. the disc and its associated packaging) is around two bucks. Simply moving a unit of Bently at a price that the car itself (not necessarily the line) is profitable still places it in the "very expensive item" category where, by contrast, simply moving a single unit of game at a price where one is not losing money on each disc sold is a pittance.Therumancer said:
Thus, while I agree that people ought not steal something easily classified as a luxury item because they cannot afford it I also recognize that it would be possible to make at least some quantity of sales in regions where a 60 USD game is something only the wealthy afford if they dramatically slashed the price. It might be impossible to make money on a game that cost 30 million USD to develop if all copies were sold at 10 USD, but if a title has already turned a profit you might as well pad that number with sales in regions that would otherwise refuse to purchase the game, even if each unit sold only brought in a few paltry bucks to the bottom line.
Hmm DuX1112 it's true! 
) AAA games will never be sold for a mere 4$. But another way is to re-sell old games when new ones appear and perhaps increase the sales for the sequels. e.g. You could find and buy the first 3 PoP games with 10$ ea when Forgotten Sands appeared or the original Shogun and Rome total war for 6-7$ rising up to 25$ for Empire at the begining of this year. I't a way to promote new games in the series.
) AAA games will never be sold for a mere 4$. But another way is to re-sell old games when new ones appear and perhaps increase the sales for the sequels. e.g. You could find and buy the first 3 PoP games with 10$ ea when Forgotten Sands appeared or the original Shogun and Rome total war for 6-7$ rising up to 25$ for Empire at the begining of this year. I't a way to promote new games in the series.
Yeah, dude, those are great. But the fact remains that much of the rest of the world (if not all) don't have access to these services. For example, I can't use Netflix because I'm not a U.S. citizen. And so on... However I would love to get similar services here ($7,99 is completely affordable for anyone I believe). So that would be on of the adaptive tactics that would work, I think. Nice post, thank you for bringing up the options!theultimateend said:
Yeah, that's great and I love it! I actually bought the 3 PoP games collection that you speak of, it didn't cost much if I remember (on other threads I've spoken of this). Another issue was that one of them wouldn't install properly, but what the hell...Loon said:Hmm DuX1112 it's true!
Anyways, I DID play pirated versions of PoP before I bought the legal PoP collection, which I think proves the statement that although people pirate, they would still buy a legitimate copy of a game it it was cheaper. I'm a living proof, he he.
(And I wouldn't want to be an exception). But, waiting for the tomato sauce to fall off my face is what makes games fun and exciting! I'm always "on edge" when I sit safely behind my some-how impervious one-inch-thick table!funguy2121 said:
/sarcasm
I really want health-bars back. TF2 did it well, why can't others?
XxRyanxX In a way i'm thankful for the lack of entertainment in the 90's right after communism fell in my country because the childhood i had was wonderful! All i could do was read books and play outside with my friends. Most of today's children don't even touch a book and prefer to stay indoors and play videogames rather than play outside. This affects their judgement and social skills.
I read the article and thought wow this is a pretty bad article for the escapist, then I saw the source was the Toronto Star and it all made sense.
Oh my God, a voice of reason! Silence him! Shut up and also you're a troll! Why don't you go play Battletoads?bbad89 said:
Isnt that difficult is it? How many of them have gone to college to learn how to program? Just because you find something relativly easy doesnt make it easy, theres a reason programmers get the wages they do, there arent a whole lot of people that can do it. I dont know what kind of things you do at work but if your title is a programmer I'd be willing to be your pretty well off.zehydra said:
Starting up an industry like that doesnt happen overnight, they have all the other well established companies to compete with. Theres a reason markets get dominated by huge developers, they get the economies of scale and the smaller companies just cant compete. Thats just the begining aswell, where would they get the finance for it?
The reason they get the AAA games for free is because they are so expensive otherwise, cant really say I blame them either.
From the book itself:zehydra said:
The first test of the adequacy of business models under local conditions is simply the
presence or absence of goods in the market.93 By this standard, Brazil fares poorly. For physical
goods such as music CDs and DVDs, high-cost licensing creates a high-priced and culturally
impoverished market of the kind documented throughout this report. With regard to digital
platforms, Brazil is far down the list when it comes to industry internationalization strategies.
As of late 2010, Brazilians had no access to iTunes, Spotify, Hulu, or the PlayStation Network
and were only recently granted access to a (functionally restricted) version of Xbox Live. Some
of these issues are clearly amenable to public-private cooperation but remain at the margins
of a discourse that emphasizes the moral failings of consumers, questionable links between
piracy and organized crime, and inflated loss numbers. The CNCP?s recent endorsement of
the Fecomércio-RJ campaign message that ?those who buy pirated products pay with their
lives? is a good example of this pattern of avoidance of serious debate on these issues. Brazil?s
upcoming hosting of the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016 is, unfortunately,
likely to strengthen this trend as multinational corporate sponsors bear down and as Brazilian
officials seek paths of least resistance through the many challenges associated with these highprofile
events.
presence or absence of goods in the market.93 By this standard, Brazil fares poorly. For physical
goods such as music CDs and DVDs, high-cost licensing creates a high-priced and culturally
impoverished market of the kind documented throughout this report. With regard to digital
platforms, Brazil is far down the list when it comes to industry internationalization strategies.
As of late 2010, Brazilians had no access to iTunes, Spotify, Hulu, or the PlayStation Network
and were only recently granted access to a (functionally restricted) version of Xbox Live. Some
of these issues are clearly amenable to public-private cooperation but remain at the margins
of a discourse that emphasizes the moral failings of consumers, questionable links between
piracy and organized crime, and inflated loss numbers. The CNCP?s recent endorsement of
the Fecomércio-RJ campaign message that ?those who buy pirated products pay with their
lives? is a good example of this pattern of avoidance of serious debate on these issues. Brazil?s
upcoming hosting of the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016 is, unfortunately,
likely to strengthen this trend as multinational corporate sponsors bear down and as Brazilian
officials seek paths of least resistance through the many challenges associated with these highprofile
events.
There's more I could link but seriously, it's worth checking out...
I'm sorry folks, but no matter how much "being poor makes you evil". This is a situation born of objective circumstance.
the morality of the issue is irrelevant because it is impossible to effectively enforce it.
besides the people can't compensate developers for their work because they don't have the money.
Since they can't afford it, they get it for free. no matter what you think.thoughts alone always fail to intervene in physical action.
The producers shouldn't fret. it was money they weren't going to make anyway with those current prices.
usually with games, if it's a affordable it gets bought.
if piracy occurs regardless of affordability, enforcement should be made more effective.
the morality of the issue is irrelevant because it is impossible to effectively enforce it.
besides the people can't compensate developers for their work because they don't have the money.
Since they can't afford it, they get it for free. no matter what you think.thoughts alone always fail to intervene in physical action.
The producers shouldn't fret. it was money they weren't going to make anyway with those current prices.
usually with games, if it's a affordable it gets bought.
if piracy occurs regardless of affordability, enforcement should be made more effective.
What's your point? Our ancestors were thieves so we have no grounds to protest current thieves? If our ancestors were mass murderers, should we also overlook genocide? Certainly a large portion of our American ancestors owned slaves, should we just overlook slavery? I see no logic to the claim that because people in one country got away with it in the past we should take a less harsh stance on it today. Maybe if it was the same people in office dictating the current rules we could make a case that they were hypocrites, but really that's not even a sound, reasonable argument for why it shouldn't be allowed even if it was the case (which it's not). The fact remains that there are good reasons copyright laws are in place and enforced today, and so long as there are, infringement is not justifiable for luxury items.Falseprophet said:
The copyright system has changed plenty since that time, surely, but I'm hardly an expert, but it doesn't matter. Even taking for granted that there was no sound justification for it at that time, us getting away with it then doesn't change the present situation. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now; all that's changed is the willingness of the US to enforce the law. Does that mean that it will not be selectively enforced, even today? Of course not, and while that's regrettable, that's a question of enforcement, not principle.
you're REALLY intent on trying to win an argument on the internet? okay then.funguy2121 said:
the "shut up" was because i don't like hearing the same complaint over and over again
but other than that, you're just impossible to deal with.
Interestingly enough, I was reading over both of our comments when I saw you quoted me again, and I thought of the Metroid Prime trilogy. I love the first and third games and enjoyed the second in spite of some of its flaws. Prime 2 was the most difficult of the 3 games, but a large part of this was due to some poor design choices (ammo system for almost all weapons, constant health drain in over half the game, excessive backtracking, etc.). So the designers listened (I think a bit too much) to feedback and made the third game easier but also shorter. I am glad the fetchquest wasn't nearly as protracted, and I wish the game were as challenging as the first Prime but, and IGN and The Escapist agreed with me, Prime 3 was by far the best game in the series, in spite of its being the easiest. It was still quite challenging, but it was also the most diverse, the most immersive, and the most fun.Azaraxzealot said:
Let me point out, with all respect, some of the comments you've made so that you understand where I'm coming from. You told me to shut up because I voiced an opinion you've heard others make before. You called me a troll because I said something others have said before. Neither of these were "complaints" as you call them. They were valid opinion concerning the direction of the industry and the creation of a quality product.