Canadian Study: Piracy Created by Greedy Capitalists

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Atmos Duality

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The crime/problem is deceptively simple to commit; it's the consequences where the controversy arises.

*If your product, in its current, legal form is not being sold to another market for whatever reason, then that market cannot lose out, because it was NEVER SOLD THERE TO BEGIN WITH.
(anime and manga fans should know precisely what I mean, and I don't even like anime)

*Price fixing/gouging in other, non-primary (usually very poor) countries is tricky.
If a product is being sold there and at a grossly inflated price, there are a few reasons for this:
1) It's to prevent resale arbitrage. If a company sells a hot product in another country at a different price than in my country, it's automatically possible to exploit arbitrage. If I'm a retailer and the products are otherwise the same (assume common language), why wouldn't I attempt to purchase the cheaper product, and sell it elsewhere at a higher cost?

2) To combat #1, we invented Regions. Local governments also tend to interfere with commerce (usually because they want a cut of the action too. Taxes are legal theft, no matter how one rationalizes it.) in some way or another.
I'm sure our resident Australians can attest to that much.

3) Why price-fix in the first place? Not all markets are equal. The United States offers a powerful commercial force; being able to compete at all in the US retail market is extremely profitable, even today. But other markets lack money, either because the country itself is poor, has low commercial output, or even just a weak currency. Compounding this is the legal element; again, many governments will attempt to act like crime syndicates, and regulate everything.

How does this tie-in to piracy?
Well, in these weak markets, to legally purchase a good, your average person will have to spend an extremely large portion of their income. The Publisher/Legal Owner/Distributor of that product cannot lower their price to match the local economy, or it will be bought out by others in stronger economies and exploited. This greatly lowers the profit potential for the Publisher in the weaker region AND it harms their profits more directly in other, much stronger regions.

This is why that game costs 3 times greater, even after adjusting for the change/value of the local currency.
Since games are luxury items, few/no sane people will do this. There's still a demand for the product, and because of piracy, there's also a supply that anyone can afford.

Now, the relationship is even worse than if the publisher hadn't gone into that weak market at all; they're spending money on product they will almost NEVER legally sell.

Now if the story stopped right there, and the Publisher decided to withdraw from that lossful-market, there would be no argument. But the story doesn't end there.

Rather than withdrawing from the market, like any sensible firm normally would, the publishers became creative, and leveraged this disadvantage against their STRONGER markets (global piracy charts are hugely inflated as a result of this) like the USA and Japan.

Piracy still occurs there as well, but nowhere near to the same degree (% of population) as in those weaker markets. Why? People can afford the luxuries there. Piracy is still common, but it's almost always among those who are either technically inclined, or kids who could not otherwise afford it (makes one wonder how so many 14 year olds ended up with R4s).
Many older hardcore gamers, besides having more disposable income are also aware that their money goes in part to the developers, and that this is supposed to encourage more games that they like. (at least, that's the philosophy I follow)

Furthermore, the effective price for those weaker markets is greater than those in the stronger markets, so the numbers on those reports are even MORE inflated!

With "global piracy" on the rise, and hundreds of millions in "losses", why it's just the perfect excuse to cut content and raise prices. The strong markets pay more for nothing, and they can't call them out on it because, hey, the Publisher is just protecting their interests!
We now have DRM that effectively spies on you and gathers info for marketing purposes. All publicly accepted (and despised) because of this HUGE piracy catastrophe!

The weaker markets? They get to stick around doing nothing but padding out those yearly piracy reports. Even though the Publisher is taking a loss there, it absolutely PALES in comparison of the gains they are making in the stronger markets as a result of this farce.

And the irony of it all, is that by going public with software piracy, and keeping it in the spotlight, these Publishers have in fact made more people aware of it, and that it exists as a possible, cheaper alternative for them.

And thus, we arrive at this tangled mess of ethics and economics.
 

funguy2121

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Let's talk about piracy, shall we?

Dave Matthews Band used to let fans plug directly into their equipment to record live shows. This helped to expand their fanbase (though not as much as making it on MTV back when it was, y'know, Music TeleVision). When opportunists began to SELL these recordings to make their own profits, rather than suing them, the band started putting out their own live recordings for sale. They never once threatened the livelihood of anyone involved in the bootlegging, even those that were trying to unjustly cash in on their creative talent.

Unfortunately, Dave Matthews Band aren't running any scene or industry. The people who do lack the mindset necessary to approach such issues with such creativity. They stifle the creativity, water down the difficulty level of games, pander to the adolescent immaturity that they blindly assume characterizes their demographic, and make myopic decisions that hurt everyone, including their selves.
 

JMeganSnow

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Anton P. Nym said:
JMeganSnow said:
Why can't big game companies do the same? Sell stripped-down copies lacking expensive features like manuals and nice plastic cases with artwork?
Well, in part because most of the cost doesn't come from manuals or plastic cases. To use your car example, maybe you could sell a Cadillac cheaper by swapping out the leather interior for a vinyl one but I don't think it'd be a big drop in price.
I'm aware of this. The point of stripping down the copies is to make them less desirable for people in first world countries to IMPORT, NOT to save a ton of money (although they will save some). Just by gaining entry to the market, they'll make SOME money that they wouldn't have before.
 

funguy2121

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Azaraxzealot said:
funguy2121 said:
Let's talk about piracy, shall we?

Dave Matthews Band used to let fans plug directly into their equipment to record live shows. This helped to expand their fanbase (though not as much as making it on MTV back when it was, y'know, Music TeleVision). When opportunists began to SELL these recordings to make their own profits, rather than suing them, the band started putting out their own live recordings for sale. They never once threatened the livelihood of anyone involved in the bootlegging, even those that were trying to unjustly cash in on their creative talent.

Unfortunately, Dave Matthews Band aren't running any scene or industry. The people who do lack the mindset necessary to approach such issues with such creativity. They stifle the creativity, water down the difficulty level of games, pander to the adolescent immaturity that they blindly assume characterizes their demographic, and make myopic decisions that hurt everyone, including their selves.
(1)big words don't make your explanation make any sense.

(2)how does watering down difficulty and "pandering to adolescent immaturity" have anything to do with piracy?

(3)i hate hearing people complain about "GAMEZ R 2 EZ!!!" (4)who cares? (5)does difficulty make a game any better? (6)then go play battletoads (on co-op) and (7)shut up.
Hello, friend! It's been a long time since I've been so unsubtly trolled! Let's do this by the numbers...

(1)As an amateur writer and generally well-educated, well-informed person, I refuse to dumb down my language for anyone. I think it would be insulting to the people with whom I'm speaking and would also be too much effort to be accepted by my intellectual inferiors. When I stumble across a word, here or elsewhere, with which I am unfamiliar, I try to ascertain the meaning via context clues. Failing that, I open up another tab and visit dictionary.com. But I'm sorry if my diction offends you.

With or without big words, I wasn't making an "explanation." I was making a simple point.

(2) I was discussing how the industry leadership habitually makes decisions which are bad for the industry as a whole - bad for them, bad for the consumers, bad for everyone. Perhaps if you reread the text you quoted you'll see where I actually address how the industry leadership miserably fails to properly combat piracy.

(3) I promise you'll never see a posting from me on here where I gloriously embrace my own ignorance in a way like that.

(4) Those of us who like to get as much out of our $50-60 purchase as possible care.

(5) Why yes, yes it does.

(6) I wish I could. I need to get a controller for my PC so I can just play an emulator, since Rare ain't bringin' Battletoads over to Virtual Console or XBox Live any time soon. God, what a game!

(7) No, you shut up! You! You!
 

hitheremynameisbob

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JMeganSnow said:
Anton P. Nym said:
JMeganSnow said:
Why can't big game companies do the same? Sell stripped-down copies lacking expensive features like manuals and nice plastic cases with artwork?
Well, in part because most of the cost doesn't come from manuals or plastic cases. To use your car example, maybe you could sell a Cadillac cheaper by swapping out the leather interior for a vinyl one but I don't think it'd be a big drop in price.
I'm aware of this. The point of stripping down the copies is to make them less desirable for people in first world countries to IMPORT, NOT to save a ton of money (although they will save some). Just by gaining entry to the market, they'll make SOME money that they wouldn't have before.
What you're missing, though, is that it's not free for them to sell games in other countries. Tariffs, shipping costs, bandwidth (in the case of digital downloads), local operating costs, retailer revenue percentages, localization costs, and so forth all eat into the profits. Some of these can be avoided or diminished, but costs are still there. So there is still a floor past which you cannot drop the price, or you'll be selling at a loss. That floor needs to take into account the severely limited number of copies you're likely to sell regardless of the price on the game (because people can STILL get it free, no matter what you charge). It could simply be the case that this is a proposition that cannot make a profit at the end of the day. If you're only going to sell a hundred copies of a game at ten dollars each, if the tariffs and localization costs are over a thousand dollars, there's no reason to sell the game in that country as you'll just be losing money. I don't know whether this is the case, or not, but given how rampant piracy is it wouldn't surprise me if it were in some places. So it's not necessarily a positive sum game as you're suggesting.
 

Azaraxzealot

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funguy2121 said:
Hello, friend! It's been a long time since I've been so unsubtly trolled! Let's do this by the numbers...

(1)As an amateur writer and generally well-educated, well-informed person, I refuse to dumb down my language for anyone. I think it would be insulting to the people with whom I'm speaking and would also be too much effort to be accepted by my intellectual inferiors. When I stumble across a word, here or elsewhere, with which I am unfamiliar, I try to ascertain the meaning via context clues. Failing that, I open up another tab and visit dictionary.com. But I'm sorry if my diction offends you.

With or without big words, I wasn't making an "explanation." I was making a simple point.

(2) I was discussing how the industry leadership habitually makes decisions which are bad for the industry as a whole - bad for them, bad for the consumers, bad for everyone. Perhaps if you reread the text you quoted you'll see where I actually address how the industry leadership miserably fails to properly combat piracy.

(3) I promise you'll never see a posting from me on here where I gloriously embrace my own ignorance in a way like that.

(4) Those of us who like to get as much out of our $50-60 purchase as possible care.

(5) Why yes, yes it does.

(6) I wish I could. I need to get a controller for my PC so I can just play an emulator, since Rare ain't bringin' Battletoads over to Virtual Console or XBox Live any time soon. God, what a game!

(7) No, you shut up! You! You!
i've written more than a couple of novels, just didn't get them published because i was unhappy with the end result. it's not that i can't comprehend your diction, it's that it comes across as pretentious

besides, i was only asking you to just explain your point, not go off on me, if it came across as "trollish" it's because i'm sick of people complaining that games are too easy. lives systems, time limits, and no continues went away for a reason, because they typically ruin immersive experiences (unless the immersion you are trying to create is endless anger and controller throwing)

i'm sure bullet hell games and ones that punish you for making tiny mistakes that humans make are appealing to you, but for the rest of us, we like games to focus on their art direction, sound, story, and gameplay that ties into it. mindless difficulty increases do nothing to add to any of that (usually)

and what about the pot calling the kettle black, huh? telling me to shut up and calling me a troll? thanks.
 

warfjm

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OMG! People pirate games because they can't afford to buy the game regularly! Who knew?!?!?

/end sarcasm

They seriously needed to research this? Really?
 

hitheremynameisbob

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Sgt. Sykes said:
Indeed.

I'd really like to know what would Americans and other people from developed countries think about piracy, if a game would cost not $50, but $300 or $1000. Just imagine that.
What's your point? That there exists a global income inequality? We know that. That may instill some sympathy towards the poorer parts of the world, but it doesn't justify the theft of what are, in the end, luxury items. As long as the right of game manufacturers to defend their intellectual property is acknowledged, theft of said property is not justifiable by any means. The only case in which an argument may exist to counter that simple fact is when the denial of access to the property creates a situation wherein free access is a moral imperative. Games are luxury items, hence no such situation exists.

Sure, I'm thankful I live in a country where they're available, and I think it'd be great if developers wanted to give people their games out of charity and the spirit of human kindness, but the point remains that it's their decision as to whether or not to do so. If you want to give people in poor countries games, there is a legal way to do it, you know: buy the games yourself and donate them.

Companies that deride pirates as a serious impediment to the success of the game industry are mostly just using them as a scapegoat to avoid having to address their own internal problems: of that I have no doubt. That does not mean that we should just ignore the established law, though. A lot of people claim piracy is harmless, but if nothing else, the persistence of piracy on this level undermines the international system of copyright recognition and enforcement. It degrades the foundations of an important construct, even if only in a small way, which may end up being something that comes back to haunt the industry at some future time, even if their current fiscal impact is negligible. Developers need to get their act together and start looking at the real problems they're facing, but efforts to stem the tide of pirates can't really hurt the industry beyond diverting its focus. In which case, there's nothing really specific to piracy that matters there - they could just as easily pick some other token issue to rail against instead.

Edit:
And for the sake of accuracy, it's worth acknowledging that "theft" is a misnomer. Infringement is the correct term, but the principle of the matter is still the same.
 

funguy2121

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Azaraxzealot said:
funguy2121 said:
Hello, friend! It's been a long time since I've been so unsubtly trolled! Let's do this by the numbers...

(1)As an amateur writer and generally well-educated, well-informed person, I refuse to dumb down my language for anyone. I think it would be insulting to the people with whom I'm speaking and would also be too much effort to be accepted by my intellectual inferiors. When I stumble across a word, here or elsewhere, with which I am unfamiliar, I try to ascertain the meaning via context clues. Failing that, I open up another tab and visit dictionary.com. But I'm sorry if my diction offends you.

With or without big words, I wasn't making an "explanation." I was making a simple point.

(2) I was discussing how the industry leadership habitually makes decisions which are bad for the industry as a whole - bad for them, bad for the consumers, bad for everyone. Perhaps if you reread the text you quoted you'll see where I actually address how the industry leadership miserably fails to properly combat piracy.

(3) I promise you'll never see a posting from me on here where I gloriously embrace my own ignorance in a way like that.

(4) Those of us who like to get as much out of our $50-60 purchase as possible care.

(5) Why yes, yes it does.

(6) I wish I could. I need to get a controller for my PC so I can just play an emulator, since Rare ain't bringin' Battletoads over to Virtual Console or XBox Live any time soon. God, what a game!

(7) No, you shut up! You! You!
i've written more than a couple of novels, just didn't get them published because i was unhappy with the end result. it's not that i can't comprehend your diction, (1)it's that it comes across as pretentious

(2)besides, i was only asking you to just explain your point, not go off on me, if it came across as "trollish" it's because (3)i'm sick of people complaining that games are too easy. lives systems, time limits, and no continues went away for a reason, because they typically ruin immersive experiences (unless the immersion you are trying to create is endless anger and controller throwing)

(4)i'm sure bullet hell games and ones that punish you for making tiny mistakes that humans make are appealing to you, but for the rest of us, we like games to focus on their art direction, sound, story, and gameplay that ties into it. mindless difficulty increases do nothing to add to any of that (usually)

(5)and what about the pot calling the kettle black, huh? telling me to shut up and calling me a troll? thanks.
Youtube is really failing me today. First I can't find a short clip of Family Guy's Peter complaining about "you big words and your...small, difficult words," and now I can't find the Star Trek 2 clip of Spock telling Kirk "You proceed from a false assumption." This is making me look so uncool...


(1) How so?

(2) No, you went off on ME. I just made a point about the industry and you responded by telling me to shut up.

(3) I agree that the lives system is justifiably disappearing and that infinite continues are becoming the norm. But I wholly disagree that ducking behind cover should magically make your health go up to max. As far as the immersive experience is concerned, that should be ONE element of a game and not its entirety. A game without any real challenge, wherein the boss battles are all won on the first or second try, doesn't have much replay value, and it isn't very rewarding when said bosses are defeated. A game that forces you to employ strategy and get creative in winning is far more appealing.

(4) This is the epitome of stereotyping. I don't like challenges in my games to come from poor hit detection and level design or anything that feels cheap or unfair. I DO like for them to challenge me. To you, that means that I only like near-impossible games. Do you see the flaw in looking at this in such a 2-dimensional way?

(5) I wonder if the pot-kettle phrase is an old racist phrase like "cotton-picking." Either way, I was mocking you, not telling you to shut up. Maybe you should read what you said. It ended with "shut up!"
 

DuX1112

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Ah, well GOOD MORNING! I've been arguing the same (almost a year ago) here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.188902-Why-do-people-think-its-ok-to-pirate-games?page=13#5904435

and here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.201265-View-from-the-Road-When-I-Was-a-Pirate?page=5#6748863

P.S. Before you judge, try walking in our (third-world/developing countries) shoes, okay? And imagine Crysis 2 costing you as much as ~$2000 (or do you get paid more? We earn that amount of money in, like a year or something). =)

EDIT: Economy, at least the one concerned with digital media distribution, should adapt to different markets. I've argued that people will buy a $10 copy of whichever game even if it comes in a simple paper packaging with no extra or fancy features. Maybe the company would receive less income PER COPY, but it will undoubtedly get more people to buy their products which may in the end even result in INCREASED PROFIT - which would also dampen piracy. And I'm saying this out of experience: many people would like to own an original, legal copy of a movie or a game, no one really wants to bother with pirating what they downloaded or bought from a street dealer on a no-name disc, because it's a thing of honor, and second, it would allow access to the online features and communities, making the non-western gamers feel at home and accepted globally. The evidence of this is that many young people and gamers here are very eager to get their hands on any merchandise - a friend of mine ordered a Mass Effect N7 hoodie all the way from Australia - her uncle paid it (and, like, we're 100 miles from the EU), because there is nothing of the sort to buy here. Nothing except half a salary World of Warcraft: Cataclysm in a luxury pack. Yeah, sure...

Regarding movies, a similar solution would be viable. Sell $50 Blu-Rays of say, Avatar in the USA/UK/EU, but why not sell a $10-20 DVD/DivX quality of the same movie in developing countries? The quality (discerned by resolution, special features etc.) would fit the price, and besides, not many people CAN or WANT to enjoy the max quality of a movie. Right now, a Blu-Ray player costs a lot of money where I live, plus you need a good large-screen flat TV to watch the movie, and this amounts to a fortune so almost no one has these things. And thus the question: WHY sell so many Blu-Rays on a market that CAN'T utilize them? Why force the issue, lose sales and incite piracy?

So my point is:
The industry needs to adapt.

I firmly believe there are ways to do this and integrate gamers worldwide, it's just a question of will and effort.
 

Falseprophet

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A bit of historical perspective: Over a century ago, Americans were the biggest media pirates on the planet. They table of estimates [http://www.atomic-robo.com/2010/12/22/internet-piracy-of-the-19th-century/] suggests the GDP per capita for both the US and UK in 1870 were about equal). Yet some of the biggest media corporations in the country built their fortunes on ripping off foreign artists.

So before you condemn poor third-worlders for pirating "non-essential" entertainment, just remember many of today's major Western media corporations were built on bootlegging supported by our thieving ancestors.
 

rda_Highlander

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I didn't cycle through all the answers, and I might be risking infuriating the moderator, but do you know what a great deal piracy is in these coutries? I'm talking about my country, which is Ukraine, which you may or may not know from STALKER and Super Klichko bros 3 (sorry)

Anyway, over here, piracy is not just an option, it's THE option. You're talking about tens of thousands of people who start their day cycling through web-pages that are dedicated to pirating media. All of it. You're talking about people who DON'T KNOW GAMES AND MUSIC COST MONEY. If someone buys a legal game or music CD, he is immediately considered a deep fan of it, and/or VIP-shmug. Of course it's not a 100% population, but you know there is a problem, when legal purchase is considered an exception.

I'm not standing on a point here, but just so you guys knew that it's not about some local "pirate gangs" but actually about a nation-wide lifestyle.

Disclaimer: I don't get involved into this argument by simply downloading free-of-charge music and freeware games, thank god there are plenty of them.
 

KazOondo

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This is retarded. Pricing something high does not MAKE someone steal it. I just creates an incentive to do so. You can't say high prices CAUSE piracy.
 

DuX1112

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Falseprophet said:
A bit of historical perspective: Over a century ago, Americans were the biggest media pirates on the planet. They table of estimates [http://www.atomic-robo.com/2010/12/22/internet-piracy-of-the-19th-century/] suggests the GDP per capita for both the US and UK in 1870 were about equal). Yet some of the biggest media corporations in the country built their fortunes on ripping off foreign artists.

So before you condemn poor third-worlders for pirating "non-essential" entertainment, just remember many of today's major Western media corporations were built on bootlegging supported by our thieving ancestors.
I'd just add that this still happens today. I mean, not the authors and literature, but games/music/movies piracy. I've talked to a number of Americans who've admitted of doing it. And many times it's exactly game industry employees who leak the games and media on the web.

So... Yeah. ;)
 

Loon

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In some countries albums, dvd's and even books are usually sold in 2 or even 3 editions across a year. When they first appear they are sold at the same price you can find them in the u.s and after 6 months the price is lowered for the 2nd edition. Sometimes after an year you can buy a dvd or a book for a very cheap price from a newspaper stand. It's a very good marketing tactic. E.g. in the country I live (Romania) You can initally find a music altbum at roughly 30-40$ but after 6 months depending on how many copies were sold you can buy the second edition for 15$. After a year that same album can be bought with only 4$ along with a local popular newspaper or magazine.
So. If you're a fan and/or you can afford it you can buy whatever you want the moment it appears. If you're a regular costumer and don't mind waiting a while you can buy it for a lower/ more affordable price after 6 months. And the 3rd edition is for non-regular costumers who are just curious and have a small amount of money to spare.
 

theultimateend

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
Piracy is like Religion. Two sides that will never agree...and the truth is probably somewhere in between.

Oh, and you can get really badly burned on both sides.
It's funny because it's true and your name is relevant.

I like meta.

The problem is similar to Occam's Razor.

You need the option to be cheaper AND still meet all the same limitations or conveniences of the piracy option.

I used to Pirate games, then Amazon and Steam came along and now I literally don't pirate any games. The pre-order discounts on Amazon (25 bucks on top of 20 bucks off on Tiger Woods Golf 12 for instance) and the deals AND convenience of steam made piracy not worth my time. Now if a title is on either of these services and I don't feel like buying it I just don't get it, if it isn't worth my money now it's not worth my time.

I used to pirate music. Then Zune Marketplace came along. I pay for the cost of 1 CD a month to get 1 CD worth of music and infinite downloads. It could only be better if they sent you random nudie pictures but I'm splitting hairs.

I used to pirate movies, then netflix came along. I can now access a giant pantheon of films and have no need to pirate. I got the convenience and the cost in a bundle.

The ONLY thing that I'm currently struggling with is television. I'd be willing to pay comedy central whatever they get from ad revenue from one person + say 30% to watch the Daily Show and Colbert report without ads and by either streaming or downloading. They are missing out by not offering something similar to all customers. This could help them (and other TV producers) escape the advertising model for something more efficient and cost effective.

So yeah, it's not JUST price, you need to hit price AND equal or greater convenience.

KazOondo said:
This is retarded. Pricing something high does not MAKE someone steal it. I just creates an incentive to do so. You can't say high prices CAUSE piracy.
Well you can. They just did. It's not necessarily true, it's a matter of cost and convenience being strong motivators. Especially considering that the user would not have purchased either way (in the case of overpriced inconvenience). The company loses no money because no money would have been made. But this is not the topic I want to specialize in for this post. My above point is better (albeit anecdotal to the extreme).

GM Rico
 

DuX1112

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Loon said:
In some countries albums, dvd's and even books are usually sold in 2 or even 3 editions across a year. When they first appear they are sold at the same price you can find them in the u.s and after 6 months the price is lowered for the 2nd edition. Sometimes after an year you can buy a dvd or a book for a very cheap price from a newspaper stand. It's a very good marketing tactic. E.g. in the country I live (Romania) You can initally find a music altbum at roughly 30-40$ but after 6 months depending on how many copies were sold you can buy the second edition for 15$. After a year that same album can be bought with only 4$ along with a local popular newspaper or magazine.
That's a good example and I like it, but I haven't seen it in Macedonia. :/ Also, are these local artists or media you're talking about, or Western stuff? I'm kinda skeptical Assassin's Creed 2 would get sold for $4 with a newspaper after a year...