Changing JRPGs for the Better: What Can Be Done?

[Strife2GFAQs]

I get the sense that the genre has stagnated over the last generation. I know titles have come along that are spectacular for their time (Radiant Historia, Persona 4), but the glut of titles now seem to suffer from cliche overload (gaming or anime based), bad characters, or archaic design choices (Random Battles, Active Battle System, Visual Novel Presentation). Maybe I'm growing old, but I think part of it has to do with the "pre-teen, coming of age ******** stories like Hope from FFXIII that start this. I've thought about this for a while, and I think I came up with suggestions to change the formula (and possibly) the perception these games have currently. I'll post something big here in a second. It was from another topic, but felt it approprate here. Also, I make reference to games that teeter the line between RPG and other genres, but they are applicable to the situation.

The makings of a great game in the genre have yet to be totally balanced. Here's what I would do.

1. Choose fast, clunk free turn-based (RH, SMT) or real-time (Tales, Star Ocean) and have the fight occur in the overworld (FFXII) but allow for avoidance at all times (TWEWY).

Grind sensation is the product of transition between overworld and battle, which adds more frustration to having closed combat. We can't "fight when we want to" because most games continue to force battle on us. Above all else, give free movement to the player. We are not watching a movie...don't treat your battles like them either.

2. Tell stories through overworld narration (Nier, Arkham Asylum), making cutscenes interactive (FFVII and VIII). If cutscenes or dialogue happen, one button press to skip everything (RH).

Even in Persona, you get the sense nothing occurs in cutscenes. There's no sense of death, tribulation, or urgency. People are standing around. Cutscenes have shifted storytelling mechanics. Arkham provided minial scenes of spectacle, while plot points or objectives were hammered out while walking halls. If you want to draw attention, make short opening shots of the area or enemy, then let us get back to work.

3. Institue warp/exit features, auto save/instant save into any area or dungeon.

I don't want to feel like I am forced to backtrack through somewhere I just completed. I don't mind forced battles or stealth if the game's plot warrants it. Give me the ability to escape, save, or return to whatever floor at my leisure. Add instant health regeneration after battles or via save points, but that might be asking for too much.

4. Avoid dead ends.

One of the few things XIII did well was eliminate "dungeon dead ends." Every path either led to a treasure or checkpoint. Old school RPGs pad out game time by forcing you 3-4 fights if you so much as BLINK towards the wrong direction. If you have a maze, once again, make it part of the plot, or give us incentive to trudge through it. Same goes if you include puzzles.

5. Cliche cutbacks

With the overabundance of anime based games, JRPG cliches (amnesia, pre-teen wuss heroes, swords > guns) have been further tainted by anime tradition. Harems with ONE and only ONE main guy or girl outcome, and effeminate males learning to "like or love" girls as the payoff is one. Guys dressing as transexuals and speaking with *** lisps or claiming to be female is another. Cliche borders on the ridiculous. Make characters act with conviction towards justifiable outcomes. Don't pull the Nintendo "princess in distress" **** either. If they do, make it a small scene like the original FF, then move on. I would assume saving the world or seeking revenge is enough motivation for most main characters. We don't need the world to hinge on the inability of some douche to function if he can't save his girlfriend...who won't have sex with him anyway.

6. Morality Matters

There's a sense in P4 that no matter what you do, you will max every social link or be everyone's friend. You're the be all end all answer to everything. Add in Catherine. I loved the game to death, but it had a glaring flaw (aside from the death only occurs in Nightmare mode). The game doesn't change if you choose Catherine. I worked towards change, but I got the super happy ending anyway (or vice versa). More than anything else, JRPGs have failed to latch on to the idea that WRRGs have had for years. If they've gone through the trouble of "affection meters," what's stopping them from allowing freedom to choose allies, pick sides, affecting endings, and overall game flow? I want that sense of freedom, but with the JRPG trappings and ambience. I know it can be possible.

 

[Strife2GFAQs]

*Spoilers*

Here's another I just thought up. Remember how Heavy Rain allowed the story to change if characters died or got arrested? I wish to God they could have implemented that with Hope. It would have worked perfectly in the game too, since it was set up in the plot anyway.

*Lightning and Hope take a break*

Lightning: Get up, we have to go.

*Hope sits in fetal position*

Hope: I don't know what to do, what should I do? *other mopey BS*

Lightning: **** you *leaves*

Hope: She left me.

The game could prompt you and say, "would you like to continue Hope's story or let him fend for himself?" They could end the scene there, never to be seen again, have other party members save his sorry *** like they did in the game, or even develop a third option that actually turns Hope into a badass and saves us from more melodrama.

 

[krazykidd]

Here's another I just thought up. Remember how Heavy Rain allowed the story to change if characters died or got arrested? I wish to God they could have implemented that with Hope. It would have worked perfectly in the game too, since it was set up in the plot anyway.

*Lightning and Hope take a break*

Lightning: Get up, we have to go.

*Hope sits in fetal position*

Hope: I don't know what to do, what should I do? *other mopey BS*

Lightning: **** you *leaves*

Hope: She left me.

The game could prompt you and say, "would you like to continue Hope's story or let him fend for himself?" They could end the scene there, never to be seen again, have other party members save his sorry *** like they did in the game, or even develop a third option that actually turns Hope into a badass and saves us from more melodrama.

That is genius !

Seriously, give me the option to not always have to have the main protagonist on my team. FF6 did this best, you have a large number of characters, use the ones you want to before going out ( except for character specific plot lines). Also something else that game did that i love, Give me the option to just use one character if i choose. Makes level grinding a lot easier when i can choose to only have 1 character in my 4 party team.

 

[Strife2GFAQs]

I forget if the Escapist follows that star policy of hiding words or not. I know GameFAQs does. Thank you for letting me know.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Well, if the battle system is the most important thing to you, I recommend Xenoblade Chronicles. Real-time battles on the overworld which (for the most part) you choose when you want to fight, health comes back on its own outside the battle so you don't need too many potions, and it's totally optional when and what you want to fight. I'm not sure about most of the others, but it does also handle #6 a little with "heart-to-heart" talks...

 

[Aircross]

-Less angst-ridden overly-feminine male characters.

-More badass loose cannon characters like Yuri Lowell.

-Remove tag-along kids. No one likes tag-along kids.

-Less cutscenes. More gameplay.

 

[Smeggs]

I want a guy with a fucking big amish beard, built like a goddamn tree trunk, missing one arm that has been replaced with a hunk of jagged metal that has been seared to his stump of an elbow.

Award winning main character, right there.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

When it comes to JRPGs I can forgive turn-based combat if it's done well. I can work past a cliché story and even a few cliché elements here and there. Hell, deliver on good combat and a decent story then I can even forgive the usually horrendous cast (the frequently beautiful artwork in JRPGs helps too!). I understand that JRPGs usually aren't written for a Western Audience, so some thing are bound to get lost in translation.

But what I can't stand is what sometimes happens to the chatacters and story when the games get localised. Setting the design choices aside here, a good localisation can make all the difference. Also there are a glut of fantastic voice actors out there, yet it seems that when a JRPG gets dubbed the voice acting takes a hit. I'd like a lot more of the characters in Eternal Sonata or the Tales of series if they had better voice acting.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

The only big thing I wish they'd change is that I want them to mix it up a little. They follow so many shonen anime archetypes that honestly its far to easy to predict just about everything in your standard JRPG if you have any exposure to anime. Change it up, maybe use a setting like Ghost in the Shell instead of your standard "Kinda fantasy, kinda sci-fi, all teenagers" land.

 

[G-Force]

5. Cliche cutbacks

With the overabundance of anime based games, JRPG cliches (amnesia, pre-teen wuss heroes, swords > guns) have been further tainted by anime tradition. Harems with ONE and only ONE main guy or girl outcome, and effeminate males learning to "like or love" girls as the payoff is one. Guys dressing as transexuals and speaking with *** lisps or claiming to be female is another. Cliche borders on the ridiculous. Make characters act with conviction towards justifiable outcomes. Don't pull the Nintendo "princess in distress" **** either. If they do, make it a small scene like the original FF, then move on. I would assume saving the world or seeking revenge is enough motivation for most main characters. We don't need the world to hinge on the inability of some douche to function if he can't save his girlfriend...who won't have sex with him anyway.

I gotta call you out on this one because at the end of the day cliches are in everything. WRPGs have their own fair share of cliches such as the adventures of "The Chosen One." Heck some of the most celebrated WRPGs use those same cliches that you had issues with Planescape featured a main character with amnesia meanwhile it seems like in Bioware games all the female leads are interested in the main character despite having a large number of males around them.

Cliches are not bad in themselves, it's how they're used that we should take issue with.[/quote]

 

[TephlonPrice]

Hmmm.... here's some:

-Have likable main characters for once. Please stop with the overly feminine yet "superpowered" male characters who never seem to have their shit together when GodFuck The Amish Dragon Rapist Monster shows up & ruins your day. Please have female characters who actually exist in the same mental realm as us instead of either being overly feminine or dying to compete with the male team. Please ditch the emo-ass, angst-ridden teenagers for people who don't sound like they're about to have periods & chug ice cream if a crumpet touches their nose.

-Have a battle system that allows for avoidance & consists of free-flowing fights where action = action, not action = movie. Have free movement so I can evade attacks instead of taking them. Hell, take the old-school SOCOM approach & let me give orders to my team in battle & let me decide how things play out! And allow it to be done in REAL TIME. I'm pretty sure it can be done.

-Have a choice system where choices actually have impact. Like say an enemy I decide to leave alive might provide me some good help, but they also warn the enemy & they may step up security, search patterns, & even have traps waiting for me. Or someone who I help out actually helps me in battle & can even provide advance warning for certain things! And lets me ditch annoying characters (unless they're useful) to get left to their own ends!

-Improved traveling. No more of this backtrack through the 9th circle of Hell just to get the +1 Defense armor. Have some sort of quick-travel system or something. Or at the very least, make movement through these places fun & have multiple pathways so I don't get bogged down in needless battles.

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

I do have one for you, though. If you don't personally like cursing, there isn't anything wrong with that. But if you do want to say a curse word, then motherfucking say a curse word, don't write this "****" shit.

Hehe made me laugh because I was thinking it too. xD

I'm not sure how to really respond here... I'm have feelings and thoughts that amount to

"If you made all of these changes, would it still be what is usually defined as a 'JRPG'?"

6. Morality Matters

There's a sense in P4 that no matter what you do, you will max every social link or be everyone's friend. You're the be all end all answer to everything. Add in Catherine. I loved the game to death, but it had a glaring flaw (aside from the death only occurs in Nightmare mode). The game doesn't change if you choose Catherine. I worked towards change, but I got the super happy ending anyway (or vice versa). More than anything else, JRPGs have failed to latch on to the idea that WRRGs have had for years. If they've gone through the trouble of "affection meters," what's stopping them from allowing freedom to choose allies, pick sides, affecting endings, and overall game flow? I want that sense of freedom, but with the JRPG trappings and ambience. I know it can be possible.

The whole concept of morality is something I have always wanted done well after seeing the weird systems of Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 that gave incentive to meta-gaming to get what you want rather than actual role-playing.

However, I don't really feel that the "JRPG" is the place to initially try and implement such a system since (for me personally) most JRPGs are known for their linear nature and the ability to tell fun stories in a linear fashion. I'm not entirely sure I would want a JRPG to "latch on to the idea that WRPGs have had for years." That's a difference that they simply have.

From my limited gaming experience WRPGs often seem to have a more open world feel with a focus on the player as the main character. JRPGs often have a tendency to have a more linear world with a focus on a group of folks adventuring together. To me it seems that with the focus on a group I never really get the sense of role-playing as any single character, rather I feel that I'm watching a wonderful story unfold before me as different characters make their own choices based on their personality rather than mine. It may seem like something that is counter-intuitive to what is called a "Role-Playing" game, but I thoroughly enjoy this aspect of many JRPGs while I can also appreciate the freedom that many WRPGs give player-characters.

I think that one of the best games that really seemed to bring together aspects of both the JRPG and the WRPG is Dragon Age:Origins. I absolutely loved the focus on a party of characters as opposed to just a lone player-character such as games like Fallout 3. Along with the wonderful band of characters came a fun dialogue system that often allowed for areas of gray rather the the binary system of Mass Effect/Mass Effect 2. After playing through some of the game (Unfortunately I haven't found the time to finish) I searched for games that offered something similar, but to no avail.

I feel that you may simply be a bit tired of the JRPG genre as a whole at the moment. Rather than "changing JRPGs" I get the feeling that you would rather gather different aspects from various genres and simply create a better game/genre. I wholeheartedly appreciate your endeavor in pursing such a topic and thank you for the read. It was mildly interesting in comparison to the boredom I tend to usually feel for the more recent topics on The Escapist. (I still love you guys/girls/other on here though^^)

Well...most of you.

Sorry if I got a little bit off-topic near the end there.

P.S I may decide to look at this thread later and respond to some other folks because wynaut. :3 (or maybe I'll post in a little bit because I can still respond to some other points you have made.)

P.P.S Please try to avoid using acronyms for games next time if possible. It took me a little bit to figure out what in the world TWEWY was (The World Ends With You I assume.) I also didn't immediately recognize RH as Radiant History (I assume). Also also you used SMT (Shin Megami Tensei right?). I just think that not using acronyms allows for easier accessibility for people who may not be as well-versed in this specific genre of games. This could allow others to check out the games being mentioned or try to contribute based on their own knowledge of the game without having to recognize acronyms. Just a thought. x3

 

[G-Force]

-Have likable main characters for once. Please stop with the overly feminine yet "superpowered" male characters who never seem to have their shit together when GodFuck The Amish Dragon Rapist Monster shows up & ruins your day. Please have female characters who actually exist in the same mental realm as us instead of either being overly feminine or dying to compete with the male team. Please ditch the emo-ass, angst-ridden teenagers for people who don't sound like they're about to have periods & chug ice cream if a crumpet touches their nose.

I think this is more attributed to just the bad examples of the genre being pushed forward. For JRPGs there are plenty of very likable characters that have become staples in video game history Auron from FFX, Sazh from FF13, The entire P4 cast as well as Chrono Trigger and various other individuals from lesser known RPGs. I'm sure there are WRPG characters that are just as lame and hated as the JRPG cast but they're not so readily brought to the firing squad as the JRPG offenders on account of how its only recently that WRPGs have been gaining momentum this console generation.

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

*Spoilers*

Here's another I just thought up. Remember how Heavy Rain allowed the story to change if characters died or got arrested? I wish to God they could have implemented that with Hope. It would have worked perfectly in the game too, since it was set up in the plot anyway.

*Lightning and Hope take a break*

Lightning: Get up, we have to go.

*Hope sits in fetal position*

Hope: I don't know what to do, what should I do? *other mopey BS*

Lightning: **** you *leaves*

Hope: She left me.

The game could prompt you and say, "would you like to continue Hope's story or let him fend for himself?" They could end the scene there, never to be seen again, have other party members save his sorry *** like they did in the game, or even develop a third option that actually turns Hope into a badass and saves us from more melodrama.

Note: Just to be clear, I hope that you don't at all feel attacked when I comment just because I choose to disagree.^^

Well the main issue I have with that is how can you decide that Lightning is the main protagonist of the story and that it is she who you, the player, are role-playing as. I never felt that any particular character in Final Fantasy XIII could claim the role of main protagonist because of the way the combat system worked.
Umm...spoilers I guess, if you haven't played the game... o-o

Spoiler: The game is so old, but I suppose I should be polite for those who haven't played.

Eventually the combat system let you set whoever you wanted as the "leader" of the party that you controlled. In the first half of the game when I didn't have control over who was the leader I could see how at certain points of the game Lightning did seem to in fact be the main character, but once the party had gathered together I really only saw them as a group of characters.

One JRPG that successfully made me feel as if I was in fact the protagonist, role-playing as that single character within a group other characters is Persona 3. The way the combat was set-up was that you could control your own actions as the Main Character and you could only give general suggestions to allies as opposed to directly controlling them as you do the Main Character. Some argue that this was a frustrating choice in terms of gameplay, (and I'm not here to argue about that point) but I thought it was an absolutely wonderful way of using gameplay to reinforce story. You are the main character and these are your friends. You aren't playing as the entire group, but only as one of the characters in a group.

To reply to your last little comment about turning "Hope into a badass" and being saved from "more melodrama":

I feel would like to think that the developers/writers/other people who worked on the game probably included Hope because someone on the team genuinely liked him and his character arc. Honestly, I did not particularly enjoy Final Fantasy XIII and therefore don't remember much about the particular characters or their arcs. However, just because you don't seem to have an affinity with Hope's story arc (or others that are similar) doesn't mean that it should be removed or changed.

Spoiler: I wonder if anyone will appreciate me covering this with a spoiler: Note about Snow

I'm sure there are dozens of people who thought Snow's whole hero thing was completely batshit crazy and unrealistic, but there are others who would have loved his attempt to protect everything he holds dear ultimately failing because life ain't no Nintendo game. It's a Square Enix game. he is only human and humans are naturally imperfect. (I really hope I remember that story arc vaguely correctly. xD) Different people will see and define the same experience differently. :3

Oh, here's one solid-ish example I can give of having different reactions to the same event in Final Fantasy XIII.

Spoiler: Once again, just to be polite. It relates to Sazh's storyline.

At that one moment when Sazh looked as if he was about to commit suicide here are just two possible reactions I could think of. One could be the reaction I sort of had. I didn't believe for a second that Sazh was going to commit suicide because they pretty much never kill off party members in JRPGs except for at the start and at the end. This was a more cynical reaction that rose from my experience with many JRPGs. However, someone who didn't know about this habit of JRPGs might have been completely enthralled with the possibility of Sazh's own suicide and filled with feelings of joy once he was revealed to still be alive. It's simply a difference in how a person perceives the game.^^

 

[Strife2GFAQs]

I admit to being jaded about a lot of things. The older I get, the less I tolerate stupid cliche BS. I've always had a fondness for the genre. My love hasn't changed, but I'm always on the lookout for something to hate games for, instead of enjoying them for the ambience. It could be my tolerance for anything annoying (difficulty, bad voice acting, androgynous teenagers killing Satan) gets magnified now rather than letting my brain shut off. I do try other game styles for time to time (Skyrim for about an hour), but I always come back to JRPGs for some reason. My issue is that when I do, those same issues I had when I left remain prevalent.

Maybe I'm just getting pissy now I'm nearing 30.

 

[veloper]

1. put all the characters on a battle grid and make them mobile;
2. fix some small stuff, like ranges.

Basicly, make the JRPG a bit more like an SRPG and you have a winner.

Most features can stay pure to the genre:
+turn-based is good
+anime is valid choice
+story I don't care about anyway
+parties of 4 are just enough

 

[4RM3D]

I have one: Release the freaking RPGs in Europe. Wait what? You have any idea how many good RPGs have been released in Japan that weren't release in Europe (and the US in most cases)? Europe almost always get the shittiest treatment. Like we don't exist.

At this point I am happy to see any JRPG at all. But very few have been released. JRPGs are dying out, because they cost more than a 'normal' game to make and they sell worse (smaller fan base). The Wii is FINALLY getting 2 more releases from Japan. But the Xbox360 and the PS3 haven't gotten anything worthwhile recently, besides Final Fantasy (if you like FF).

And those few that have been released consisted of a number of good games like Tales of Vesperia, Resonance of Fate and Lost Odyssey. I am not asking for a reincarnation of Final Fantasy VII here, although a remake would be awesome. All genres have good games and shitty games, JRPGs are no exception to this.

As it stands now I am not displeased with JRPGs, but I am displeased with the lack of releases in Europe.

Also, when you try to change JRPGs too much, they might lose the defining character that made them JRPGs in the first place.

 

[DSK-]

Being able to save anywhere or almost anywhere in the game. I fucking hate having to play the game just to find a save point where I can finally turn the thing off.

 

[Aurgelmir]

1. Choose fast, clunk free turn-based (RH, SMT) or real-time (Tales, Star Ocean) and have the fight occur in the overworld (FFXII) but allow for avoidance at all times (TWEWY).

2. Tell stories through overworld narration (Nier, Arkham Asylum), making cutscenes interactive (FFVII and VIII). If cutscenes or dialogue happen, one button press to skip everything (RH).

3. Institue warp/exit features, auto save/instant save into any area or dungeon.

4. Avoid dead ends.


5. Cliche cutbacks


6. Morality Matters

1. I disagree, random combat is part of what creates tension in a lot of JRPGs, and the removal of that can make the game seem predictable and boring. But the random encounters shouldn't be as frequent in "puzzle style areas". Besides avoiding battle? why do you play these games if you want to avoid battle, and then later you seem to want to avoid the cut scenes also?

2. Can't argue there, but JRPGs has always had loads of cut scenes, they just used to be the type you read, pressed X, then read some more. Now they have become inactive movies. But all in all this ties in to your point 5. I think, so lets do 5. straight away:

5. Japan and the West have very different ideals when it comes to aesthetics, so this might be hard to change. Although Nier tried to make it more appealing to the west by changing the main characters looks... although they still looked highly Japanese, which probably put a lot of people off.
So when you have a game with aesthetics that don't agree with you, you might also be less inclined to like the cut scenes imo.
But all in all cut scenes isn't the problem, its the amount of jibber jabber going on, so many games seem to state the obvious all the freaking time.

3. No argument from me there. JRPGs REALLY need to implement this.

4. Disagreed. Again deadends COULD have a treasure chest, or it COULD be the right way forward. Dead Ends + Random Encounters = suspense. Final Fantasy 13 is a great example of a game that removed everything fun because it removed the suspense of walking from A to B, and you ended up with a game of endless corridor running.

6. This could make games more interesting yes.


One thing I'd like to see is a move from grind fests to a more strategic/tactical type combat system, where you win because you figured out how to beat the boss, not because you had the correct level to do so. This is what makes WOW so popular. Sure in wow you need the grear to even think of progressing, which means a grind, but in an single player game this will be gated by the continious story.

PS: Currently playing Golden Sun Dark Dawn, good game, jsut alittle to much meaningless chatter.