Cheap Thrills and the Survival Horror Genre

[Miggiwoo]

Hey Escapists,
I'm gonna go right out and say I'm tired of people complaining about the state of survival horror. I had no problem at all getting sucked into the world of current gen games like Dead Space (& sequel).

I know EC did a video on this, and they said our greatest fear is fear of the unknown. I respectfully disagree, and say that fear is extremely multifaceted. In the scope of a AAA game, you cannot maintain an unknown antagonist indefinitely. What you can do is cloud the intent of the antagonist, or as many other games do, create a fear of the outside context problem.

In DS, the cause of the 'infection' remains totally unknown for most of the game. The entire environment screams menace. Or the outside context problem, most typified by the Silent Hill series, a nameless, faceless adversary that the antagonist has no real way of dealing with. I especially like games where the protagonist slips into madness.

TLR
I think Survival Horror is heading in a good direction, what about you? If so, why so? If not, why not?

 

[Phlakes]

But it's not really survival horror anymore. When you know you can kill anything that comes your way, it becomes more like action horror. And sometimes that kills the horror and leaves it as just action. That was why that one enemy from Dead Space was genuinely terrifying, the one that regenerates limbs, because you don't know if you can actually kill it.

 

[Miggiwoo]

But it's not really survival horror anymore. When you know you can kill anything that comes your way, it becomes more like action horror. And sometimes that kills the horror and leaves it as just action. That was why that one enemy from Dead Space was genuinely terrifying, the one that regenerates limbs, because you don't know if you can actually kill it.

If this is the case, how is it any different to any other so-called classic survival horror game? I remember the big turnaround in RE:3 (pun intended, that was the first survival horror to feature a quick turn), but I honestly think the graphical capacity of modern games makes environments feel truly menacing. You weren't just a little sickened when baby heads attacked you in Dead Space?

 

[xPrometheusx]

(yay, first post! please don't point that out)
I have to agree with the badass llama thing above me. I loved deadspace two, but I don't like the horror genre. I've never been able to stomach it in the first place. I liked the gunplay and the gore and the thin story, but at the same time, the ability to shoot EVERYTHING THAT MOVES took away from the horror aspect. I wouldn't even call it a horror, I'd call it action/suspense, maybe? I'd actually go as far as just calling it action. Not once in the entire game was I truly scared, and I'm the guy that can't sit through even the most mediocre horror movie. Horror is the earlier entries in the Silent Hill series, where you don't know... anything. Horror ISN'T Dead Rising 2, or Left 4 Dead.

Furthermore, in contrast to your own opinion, I actually agree with the idea of our greatest fear being the unknown. It's what fuels our fear of death, and what keeps us from sticking our appendages into dark enclosed spaces. But when you've got a fully automatic rifle and a saw-blade-launcher in each of your respective hands, that fear goes away instantly.

So I'd say the Survival Horror is actually going in the OPPOSITE direction it should be. Especially if you count pretty much any of the games I mentioned as survival horror. They shouldn't be classified as the same type of game. Suggestion to improve: Remove or seriously deteriorate the ability to kill things in horror games. As soon as I cranked up the skill level on dead space, it became a hell of a lot scarier. However, the scary part was countered by the difficulty being so high it was impossible to complete unless you're a veteran of the game.

 

[Miggiwoo]

Suggestion to improve: Remove or seriously deteriorate the ability to kill things in horror games. As soon as I cranked up the skill level on dead space, it became a hell of a lot scarier. However, the scary part was countered by the difficulty being so high it was impossible to complete unless you're a veteran of the game.

I agree with this, and this may largely be where I'm coming from. I'm not an elitist by any stretch of the imagination, but I have been playing games for 20 years and my skill set is such that I tend to play games on higher difficulties. I totally agree that in games like Dead Rising or L4D the enemies are so numerous and nonthreatening that they may as well be bunnies (though tanks are a little more interesting), and similarly survival horror games where enemies are so easily killed that they pose no real threat, they would lose there appeal (grammar fail :S)

I guess what I'm saying is that many times while playing these games I find my nerves are tense, my heart rate is higher and, while I am not about to have nightmares or anything like that, there is a definite element of fear in my mind. And it comes from both tangible fear, that I may be killed, and environmental fear, that I don't know what is going to happen next, but that there is a clear ominous atmosphere.

 

[kebab4you]

Survival Horror does not equal jump horror, so tired people think those two are related T.T"

Jump out horror is just a cheap way to get someone startled for half a sec and you don't even need a monster to do it with, might as well just throw a bunny into someone's face and get the same reaction...

 

[Miggiwoo]

And is that a reference to modern games or old games? Because AFAIK, 'jump out horror' has been in games survival horror games from the first.

 

[pyrosaw]

This is to say survival horror still exists, and isn't like Space sims were they just pop up every now and again. Even so, Survival horror has never been focused on much. When you make an FPS, there are certain things people will want from an FPS, standards such as guns, shootig things, and a story everynow and again. When people play a survival horror game, there are to get scared, and to get scared, they need atmosphere. Modern day horror games don't make good atmosphere, they make good action titles. Nothing wrong with that, but I payed for a horror game, so I think I should get a horror game. You wouldn't buy Uncharted if you're in the mood for an RTS, and you wouldn't buy Halo for an everlasting RPG experience. We need to remember that we suppose to scare people, not make a gory action game. Again, I've got nothing against gory action games, I'd just like to play a horror title again.

 

[Manji187]

Go play Resident Evil Remake (GC or Wii) on Hard mode and learn the true meaning of survival horror.

 

[ramboondiea]

i think most survival horror games come in different degrees now a days, i mean people complain that you can kill things in dead space therefore its not survival horror, but why isnt it, your surviving horror, the addition of a gun doesnt change that.
i do think the games where your helpless are scarier, but in no way do i believe survival horror is in a bad way as a genre

 

[Sleepingzombie]

While your at it play Amnesia: the dark descent. That is the only horror game nowedays.

As others have said fighting icky monsters covered in blood is:I am scared but I am fighting, that is not horror. Horror is the feeling in your gut that something is stalking you, something you are powerless do do anything about and you can only walk to your doom. its a feeling like a pig who knows it walk toward the meatgrinder but can´t run away.

That is horror

http://www.youtube.com/v/n-jqv6uNBjs?version=3

 

[Miggiwoo]

Go play Resident Evil Remake (GC or Wii) on Hard mode and learn the true meaning of survival horror.

Played it, albeit many years ago, I remember it being grueling, every bullet counts sort of stuff. But then like all RE games, you get to a point where you are better than it. You know how to avoid every fight you can, where all the enemies are, hit the last few hours with huge amounts of grenade and magnum ammo and then just face roll it.

While your at it play Amnesia: the dark descent. That is the only horror game nowedays.

As others have said fighting icky monsters covered in blood is:I am scared but I am fighting, that is not horror. Horror is the feeling in your gut that something is stalking you, something you are powerless do do anything about and you can only walk to your doom. its a feeling like a pig who knows it walk toward the meatgrinder but can´t run away.

That is horror

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYZPJnWdfww

I understand what you mean about Amnesia, but it isn't AAA. It was a huge step in the right direction, I especially liked the sanity, and that you were constantly faced with a choice between madness or death. I think it works as a concept, and I'd love to see some of the mechanics in AAA games, but IIRC it was a little too short to be fairly compared to a AAA title.

 

[MisterMaster]

Survival horror has pretty much devolved into action horror. I can't see how anyone can call RE4 or Dead Space survival horror games when you play a character who's so effective at exterminating everything that dares to get in the way. There are a few gems like Fatal Frame or Amnesia, but a real RE style SH game is more or less extinct.

Survival horror is not to be taken literally as in ''surviving against horrors'' as some have pointed out. Survival horror is about being overwhelmed, it's about not being able to adequately deal with the situation. Killing a zombie in one room may mean that you won't be able to dispatch another zombie in another room. Too many enemies and not enough resources to deal with it. It's about trying to avoid confrontation, running away rather than going in guns blazing.

That is the ironic distinction of current gen 'SH' games. They actually encourage the player to engage the enemies because that's the surest way of getting more ammo and health. That's also the main reason why the action aspect completely overshadows the horror aspect.

The best comparison I'd make between old SH and current gen SH is either RE2 vs RE4 or Dino Crisis vs Dino Crisis 2.

 

[Miggiwoo]

Survival horror is not to be taken literally as in ''surviving against horrors'' as some have pointed out. Survival horror is about being overwhelmed, it's about not being able to adequately deal with the situation. Killing a zombie in one room may mean that you won't be able to dispatch another zombie in another room. Too many enemies and not enough resources to deal with it. It's about trying to avoid confrontation, running away rather than going in guns blazing.

That is the ironic distinction of current gen 'SH' games. They actually encourage the player to engage the enemies because that's the surest way of getting more ammo and health. That's also the main reason why the action aspect completely overshadows the horror aspect.

The best comparison I'd make between old SH and current gen SH is either RE2 vs RE4 or Dino Crisis vs Dino Crisis 2.

Good points on both the definition and the ammo from dead guys things, although I would be careful using the acronym SH in a survival horror thread (Silent Hill usually get's that ahead of the genre for some reason).

I really do encourage people to step up difficulties if it's too easy. Games have to hit larger demographics now compare to 15 years ago, and the crowd of true survival horror fans would largely come from that generation, I doubt there are too many people around who played Phantasmagoria or Alone in the Dark when they were relevant. With 15 years using a toolbox that has barely changed, you're probably a lot better than you used to be.

But back to the topic, I don't think RE2 was harder to survive than Dead Space. On high difficulties enemies take a lot of killing, do a lot of damage, and they barely ever drop ammo. Running is very viable, though there is the odd 'kill everything in the room' scenario that I think has no place in the genre. Likewise though, there was a degree of tedium in older RE games where you would have to backtrack through rooms numerous times and avoid enemies each time.

One of the turning points seems to be first person aiming ergo weak points which are more reliably exploitable. I remember letting the zombie get really close before aiming up and letting them have it in RE1, now I can do a better job with a pistol from across the room. Another thing seems to be inventory sizes, I remember having 6 slots, 5 of which were shotgun (2 slots), ammo, pistol, ammo, and one more for something else. These days you can carry an armory and a hospital.

 

[Manji187]

Go play Resident Evil Remake (GC or Wii) on Hard mode and learn the true meaning of survival horror.

Played it, albeit many years ago, I remember it being grueling, every bullet counts sort of stuff. But then like all RE games, you get to a point where you are better than it. You know how to avoid every fight you can, where all the enemies are, hit the last few hours with huge amounts of grenade and magnum ammo and then just face roll it.

True, that would take about 3-4 playthroughs. The first two times though, heh, sweaty palms.

Wouldn't it be great if ammo & herb locations would've been highly randomized and enemies would wander around the house (instead of staying in the same location) and ALWAYS follow you through the last door they've seen you go through...until either you or they are dead. Also, regular zombies should turn into crimson heads faster. Also: zombies should just grab & bite on stairs, instead of vomiting.

Would also be nice if the game incorporated an infection mechanic. Something like in the RE Outbreak series. Bitten? Need to find a cure or slowly lose the ability to aim straight/ run/ fight off zombies and then eventually turn into one of them. Throw in some viral surpressants to buy time by slowing the growth/ multiplication of the T-virus.

How would that be for a challenge? Prolly not gonna happen though with the current direction of the franchise.

 

[The Dreamer]

I played Amnesia: The Dark Descent at a friend's house. It was very atmospheric and very scary, but I had no reason to continue playing, as the story was not particularly engaging, and the gameplay wasn't particularly fun. The fact is, a game can only be just scary up to a certain point before people just stop caring. Dead Space 2, on the other hand has been quite a good scare, while giving me a reason to keep playing (good old blowing-the-shit-out-of-monsters motivation). The gunplay is varied enough to make each encounter fun, while the omnipresent lack of ammunition (assuming you're playing on a suitable difficulty level) builds up an atmosphere of oppression and survivalist desperation. In fact, the points where Dead Space 2 becomes least scary are the points where you have no control, as those are the points where you have the underlying mindset that the developers aren't going to do a thing to you, because you have nothing to fight back with and nowhere to run. When the game gives you action, it becomes quite a fright, because Isaac's continued existence is in your hands, and you are drawn into the desperate panic of trying to keep him alive.

All in all, the ability to interact is what makes games a more effective horror medium, as the players are responsible for keeping themselves alive and well. When developers focus too much on atmosphere building, and not enough on keeping the player's survival in their own hands, the player has no further reason to play, the game's efforts collapse, and the horror falls flat.

Dead Space 2 may not be a survival horror game we've come to expect from the old days, but it excels at what it does, drawing the player in with the promise of big fleshy targets, then jumping on them with some nice you're-the-target-now twists of fate, and I, for one, loved it. If that means that I have no taste in survival horror and that I'm just a consoletard who just wants quick vapid distractions, so be it, but at least I'll have fun whilst getting the shit scared out of my self.

 

[Miggiwoo]

How would that be for a challenge? Prolly not gonna happen though with the current direction of the franchise.

Haha, I have no idea how many times I played RE:1 on GC, but I can tell you it was more than 4! I think you are on to something with the infection mechanic, even if it was just some ever present thing not related to being bitten but just there to keep pressure on all the time. Enemies that chase you through doors was sort of explored with Nemesis in RE:3, and he was one of the most awesome enemies of the series I think! I totally agree that the RE franchise has completely abandoned survival horror, RE:5 plays more like Gears of War.

All in all, the ability to interact is what makes games a more effective horror medium, as the players are responsible for keeping themselves alive and well. When developers focus too much on atmosphere building, and not enough on keeping the player's survival in their own hands, the player has no further reason to play, the game's efforts collapse, and the horror falls flat.

That's sort of what I was getting at when I mentioned it wasn't fair to compare Amnesia to a AAA. Video games can't do horror in the traditional, film & literature sense. By being an interactive medium, the player MUST have control to have a meaningful game. However, by limiting the amount of environmental control you can make players aware that there is an unknown evil that has changed the rules, and that you are extremely limited in your ability to combat it. Any room could provide sudden death, or some new gruesome piece of the puzzle.

 

[Howlingwolf214]

Survival Horror isn't dead, it's just a bit warped.

I didn't find Dead Space scary at all (definitely fun though, not gonna argue with that) becuase Isaac contained an arsenal that could destroy an entire army of the things. Once something can be easily dispatched, it no longer presents a threat and is therefore no longer scary.

Amnesia: The Dark Descent, on the other hand, presents you with a threat but gives you no way of defending yourself, other than running. Because of that you need to be constantly on edge to work out whether a sound you just heard is just wind, or some horrifying monstrosity come to clout you over the head.

Condemned: Criminal Origins, on the other hand, mixes the two. You can defend yourself, but the enemies won't go down easy and you're forced to using bits of the environmnent (woo locker doors!) to beat them back. That means that any enemy you see could be the death of you. The protagonist also has strange stuff happen to him, such as Mannequins appearing to follow him. That added to an already tense mind makes it very creepy indeed.

In short; No it's not dying. I'd say it's actually riding pretty high. >_>

 

[Manji187]

How would that be for a challenge? Prolly not gonna happen though with the current direction of the franchise.

Haha, I have no idea how many times I played RE:1 on GC, but I can tell you it was more than 4! I think you are on to something with the infection mechanic, even if it was just some ever present thing not related to being bitten but just there to keep pressure on all the time. Enemies that chase you through doors was sort of explored with Nemesis in RE:3, and he was one of the most awesome enemies of the series I think! I totally agree that the RE franchise has completely abandoned survival horror, RE:5 plays more like Gears of War.

I haven't played RE5 myself nor do I really feel the need.

I liked RE4 though (played the shit out of it on GC and PS2). Story was stupid, the action was nice and the survival horror element...wasn't there. Sure it could get scary sometimes (Regenerators, Salazar's Right Hand) but with a trunk full of guns & ammo & herbs...the horror part evaporates pretty quick and turns into "Hell yeah, come get some!". The whole suitcase mechanic was pretty ridiculous if you think about it.

I think survival horror has been the victim of the times (& tastes) moving on. "Fixed camera's? Pre-rendered backgrounds? Iffy (unintuitive at first) controls? Sorry, we don't do that anymore." Still...they could've at least tried to replicate the atmosphere and tension in a full 3D environment...without turning RE into Gears of War.

Well, one can always hope.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I guess what I'm saying is that many times while playing these games I find my nerves are tense, my heart rate is higher and, while I am not about to have nightmares or anything like that, there is a definite element of fear in my mind. And it comes from both tangible fear, that I may be killed, and environmental fear, that I don't know what is going to happen next, but that there is a clear ominous atmosphere.

That's less fear, and more stress. And yes, modern horror games are stressful (dead space, RE5, etc). But not really scary.

Yes, I was alert and on guard the whole game, but not scared. Because I knew that whatever came at me, I could handle with no trouble. All that mattered was that I stay alert, and not get caught by surprise, and I would have no trouble. So yes, it was stressful. But not scary.

I think the only time I was actually SCARED in Dead Space 1 was when I turned a corner and this super-speed guy zoomed around the corner screaming bloody murder and punched me in the face.

For a game to be scary, the player should feel powerless, or at least like he's at a huuuge disadvantage. They need to be jumping at shadows, and creating their own fear. Yatzee put it best [paraphrasing]"A good survival horror game knows that a person's imagination can scare them WAY better than anything. A good survival horror game only needs to hand you a piece of sandpaper and encourage you to massage your own stomach with it."

I took on Re4, Re5, Dead Space 1, Dementium 1 and 2, and even half life 2's Ravenholm. Some of them (mostly Ravenholm) WERE scary. But I got through it without being too scared. (and I'm a total WUSS about scary stuff)

...I played the Demo for Amnesia for about 15 minutes, got to the first enemy, snuck around a bit and had to CLOSE THE GAME because I just couldn't take it. I didn't know where it was. I knew if I ran into it I was !@#$ed. I expected death around every corner, and every time I didn't see it, I got even more scared because I had no idea where it was. Hell, I was even nervous when watching a friend play it. I was so close to shouting at him "What the hell are you doing?! There are monsters around! Don't run out with your lantern on! THEY'LL SEE YOU!!!"