Circumcision: a Pillar of American ignorance

[Rodrigo Girao]

Also maybe its a regional thing (im in Texas) but most girls seem to greatly prefer a mushroom than an elephant trunk.

Fixed. If you're going to be pejorative, be both ways.

 

[Jonluw]

Circumcision is a major surgery? The fact that you would call it that pretty much makes anything else you have to say about the subject null and void.

Read some of the other posts in this thread. Several people have pointed out that most modern studies have shown that it's unclear whether circumcision makes any real difference as to pleasure. One person cited survey results that showed about 75% of men who got circumcised as adults reported no difference afterwards.

I said "they'd have to deal with less pleasure" but I was speaking hypothetically, as in if it somehow turns out that it does cause less pleasure, which hasn't been proven by any current studies on the subject, then they'll just have to deal with it.

Seems to me that if there are no proven negative consequences,

Except for risk of complications, psychological damage and the pain of the procedure

and dozens of legitimate positive reasons to do it (makes it easier to clean, less likelihood of getting infections or diseases)

Have you ever heard of someone getting an infection in their foreskin?
It's about as common as infections in the earlobes, I figure. Do you cut those off your children?
As for STD-prevention: That's a highly debatable claim.

It does make it harder for to masturbate without lubrication though. So if you're like the people who originally introduced secular circumcision to the US, that's a great point in its favour I guess. That's pretty much the only "positive" effect of non-therapeutic circumcision though.

, then I see no reason why NOT to do it.

You know how if you hit your toenails they turn blue and fall off and it's really painful? Why not remove those as well. Spare the kid the pain of that experience.

I sure wish my parents had had it done to me as a child, so that I didn't have to worry about getting it done as an adult (which means I have to take a full week or so of staying in bed, which I probably won't be able to do until I graduate college).

Why are you going to get circumcised? Religious reasons or just because you feel like taking half a second to pull back your foreskin when cleaning it is a bother?

So other than your completely ridiculous assertion that circumcision is a "major" surgery, I don't see how you have any ground here. Circumcision isn't barbaric or cruel. I've never once heard someone who's been circumcised, as an infant or an adult, complain about it or express regret.

There are two in this very thread, and foreskin restoration is nearly an industry of its own. It has a wikipedia page. Of course, no foreskin restoration procedure can restore complete functionality, but it's as close as you get to undoing what your parents did to you without your consent.

 

[robert022614]

Also maybe its a regional thing (im in Texas) but most girls seem to greatly prefer a mushroom than an elephant trunk.

Fixed. If you're going to be pejorative, be both ways.

lol Thanks I will remember that next time

 

[tofulove]

my 2 cents, its a barbaric ritual that has no place in our society, other than for the few and far between medical reasons, which in the vast majority of said cases can be solved with out mutilating said penis.

and to those who said, i had circumcision and i dint lose any sensitivity, last time i check, as a baby your not having sex (hopefully) and if you were i pray to god you don't remember it.

 

[Jonluw]

Well, I didn't act like I was in pain. Hell, my brother nursed shortly after the procedure. My parents say we acted just fine. Apparently we didn't even cry during the procedure.

It's quite common for newborns to go into a sort of catatonic state when they undergo great pain.
I'd like to know how you would gauge how much pain a newborn is in from a mere layman's casual observation though. It generally isn't easy to spot pain in infants. Studies which measure heartrate and hormone levels do not give quite such a comfortable image of the procedure.
Know what? Just google 'circumcision pain', or watch the Penn & Teller episode on circumcision.
That will also give you a bit of information on the potential negative psychological effects of the procedure. Hint: There are enough people who wish they'd never been circumcised for there to be a wikipedia page for foreskin restoration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration
We have at least two of them in this very thread in fact.

As for those 2 people- they have my sympathies, really. I'm not saying this isn't worthy of debate, but Goddamn if some people are overreacting. My folks aren't complete monsters for removing a small bit of skin from my body.

I'm not saying they're monsters. I'm saying they were ignorant of the potential effects and the fact that the baby is actually in pain.

As for the pain- well, I trust my own mother to judge her baby's behavior enough to know when it's in pain.

Well, with all due respect, that's horribly naïve.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

Sorry, but no. Just no. At least, not most people. 14 million Jews do it because it's part of our culture, not because we're fighting to preserve a right or for the sake of it. We did it way before it was a debated issue, and will do it long after it is.

Someone oughta FORCE some sense into your heads again.

Fuck yeah, Publius Aelius Trajanus Hadrianus Augustus.

 

[Duruznik]

As for those 2 people- they have my sympathies, really. I'm not saying this isn't worthy of debate, but Goddamn if some people are overreacting. My folks aren't complete monsters for removing a small bit of skin from my body.

I'm not saying they're monsters. I'm saying they were ignorant of the potential effects and the fact that the baby is actually in pain.

As for the pain- well, I trust my own mother to judge her baby's behavior enough to know when it's in pain.

Well, with all due respect, that's horribly naïve.

Sorry, I really disagree with you there. Babies, when in pain, cry. I acted exactly like I did before, as did my brother. There's no basis to claim that we were in pain. Plus, it's pretty safe to say that I was too anithetised to know what was going on at the time.

Sorry, but no. Just no. At least, not most people. 14 million Jews do it because it's part of our culture, not because we're fighting to preserve a right or for the sake of it. We did it way before it was a debated issue, and will do it long after it is.

Someone oughta FORCE some sense into your heads again.

Fuck yeah, Publius Aelius Trajanus Hadrianus Augustus.

Uh... what? I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

[Jonluw]

As for those 2 people- they have my sympathies, really. I'm not saying this isn't worthy of debate, but Goddamn if some people are overreacting. My folks aren't complete monsters for removing a small bit of skin from my body.

I'm not saying they're monsters. I'm saying they were ignorant of the potential effects and the fact that the baby is actually in pain.

As for the pain- well, I trust my own mother to judge her baby's behavior enough to know when it's in pain.

Well, with all due respect, that's horribly naïve.

Sorry, I really disagree with you there. Babies, when in pain, cry. I acted exactly like I did before, as did my brother. There's no basis to claim that we were in pain. Plus, it's pretty safe to say that I was too anithetised to know what was going on at the time.

Do you really think local anaesthesia removes all sensation?
How about showing a needle into your glans?
Like I said: Google circumcision pain, and maybe realize that your mother's layman observations aren't really the best source of objectively determining whether cutting into one of the most sensitive places on a child's body is painful or not.

 

[imnot]

I really dislike it and think its only ok if its absolutely needed (I have a friend who was born with some sort uh, I dunno lets call it a dick problem so had to have one) But at the end of the day these threads basicaly become a defend your dick compotition.

 

[JoshTheater]

Why are you going to get circumcised? Religious reasons or just because you feel like taking half a second to pull back your foreskin when cleaning it is a bother?

Neither, but thanks for asking in an incredibly insensitive and insulting manner.

As for religion, I'm an atheist and couldn't care less about religious reasons. In fact, my father is actually Jewish (and circumcised) and yet my parents still agreed not to have it done to me. Not for any outstanding reason, just because they felt it wasn't necessary.

I would guess that there are actually not as many Jewish people who have it done for religious purposes, but more likely that they continue to do it simply because it's become the standard procedure.

As for my issues: I actually experience severe discomfort when pulling back my foreskin that prevents me from doing so. I've gone to a urologist who said there's nothing physically wrong with my penis or foreskin, yet the discomfort is there. Therefore I don't pull back my foreskin when a masturbate. For some reason, because of this, from even a very young age I masturbated while semi-flaccid, with the foreskin always over the head of my penis. I suspect this may have also caused me to develop ED. Because of this I have severe sexual insecurity and experience great anxiety when considering what I might do when entered into a situation where i become intimate with the opposite sex.

See why I didn't want to go into detail?

If I ever have a son, and I don't have them circumcised, how am I supposed to teach them how to clean and maintain their own foreskin when I was never able to do so myself?

There are two in this very thread, and foreskin restoration is nearly an industry of its own. It has a wikipedia page. Of course, no foreskin restoration procedure can restore complete functionality, but it's as close as you get to undoing what your parents did to you without your consent.

Seems like a pretty rare circumstance. But then again, so is my circumstance. So if you're going to argue that my circumstance isn't a good reason to have a child circumcised, why should I consider that circumstance a reason to not have them circumcised?

Perhaps I should read more posts by these two, but I can't really understand how someone who was circumcised as an infant can know that they'd be happier with foreskin. They've never had it, so how do they know it will feel better with it than how they feel without it? Seems to me they're just HOPING it will, based on hearing that it's more pleasurable with foreskin, which as several people in this thread have pointed out is not something that has been proven at all.

As for "psychological damage" caused by infant circumcision, every link I've seen in here so far to back up that claim has been pseudo-psychological garbage not backed up by any outstanding major studies that have been conducted. Of course circumcision on an infant is going to cause some sort of psychological effect, just as I'm sure exiting the womb through the tiny passage that is the vagina probably has some sort of psychological effect. But I see no outstanding proof that it causes major trauma that can effect those people throughout their entire lives in an overly negative manner. That's the sort of garbage that L. Ron Hubbard tried to teach people.

 

[Risingblade]

American? It's a Jewish thing and totally optional if you aren't >.>

Its an American tradition since the days of Dr. Kellog, pushed by Adventists who performed circumcision on boys AND girls. In fact, they took it a step beyond mutilation and went straight to torture.

Some of the views during this dark time included:

- NO use of pain killers. The pain was used to teach the child a lesson about touching his or her genitals.

- Acid was used to destroy the genitals of little girls.

There was even a case where Dr. Kellog claimed that God would strike you down if you touched yourself, and this was scientifically "proven." He even went on to say masturbation and sexuality would make God destroy America. He lied about these "scientific studies" which scared the pants off of Americans. Its this reason circumcision was adopted in America. It started out of religious fear, but it stayed because of "tradition."

Blame the religious nutcases then!

 

[Duruznik]

Do you really think local anaesthesia removes all sensation?
How about showing a needle into your glans?
Like I said: Google circumcision pain, and maybe realize that your mother's layman observations aren't really the best source of objectively determining whether cutting into one of the most sensitive places on a child's body is painful or not.

Jewish Mohel's don't use local anasthesia. The baby is given a small amount of wine (a few cc), which make it just drunk enough to not feel a thing or even know what's going on.

And why wouldn't anasthesia remove the pain? That's its job. And giving a baby enough to make an area feel numb shouldn't be too hard. It's not like massive doses are needed for such a small creature.

And frankly, my problem with a lot of the anti-circumcision sites is that they give information that, while credible, is given only by certain studies. Circumcision is one of those cases where you can find informtation that supports both ends of the argument.

 

[chadachada123]

Yes, it's disgusting that they cut their newborn children, and the HIV preventing effect is debatable.
You wouldn't let me cut the earlobes off my children or remove their toenails, so please stop cutting your own kids.
There's really not a lot else to say on the matter. It's bad, mkay?

If the majority of the country I lived in had cut earlobes (or pierced earlobes, to be more relevant), I don't see a problem in doing such a procedure on a kid that won't remember the surgery when they're older. Better than making him wait until an age when the surgery would cost thousands and be uncovered by insurance.

(That, I think, is the key here, is that insurance won't cover circumcision on adult or teenage males, only on infant ones. Fix this discrepancy, and anti-infant-circumcision arguments will carry a lot more weight).

 

[JoshTheater]

(That, I think, is the key here, is that insurance won't cover circumcision on adult or teenage males, only on infant ones. Fix this discrepancy, and anti-infant-circumcision arguments will carry a lot more weight).

Agreed. If non-infant circumcision was a free procedure provided by universal healthcare, as it should be, I would be far more likely to not have my child circumcised and let them decide for themselves once they reach puberty.

 

[pffh]

(That, I think, is the key here, is that insurance won't cover circumcision on adult or teenage males, only on infant ones. Fix this discrepancy, and anti-infant-circumcision arguments will carry a lot more weight).

You're right infant circumcision should not be covered by insurance since it's an elective surgery.

 

[BRex21]

Isn't that a bit hyperbolic? an apt comparison. Beating a child hurts it. A lot. And can maim the child for life, just like has been cited as the result of circumcision in multiple peer reviewed studies showing the physiological and psychological trauma of this procedure . Circumcision happens to a child who's out cold Fully conscious and UN-anaesthetized in a medical environment, can't feel a thing feels excruciating pain often culminating in shock and occasionally death, the exact same response someone would have if they were tortured to death, and doesn't leave Often leaves him deeply scarred for life.

I fixed your quote for you. also your typo's. Its pretty clear that you have no understanding of the procedure used to circumcise infants, this IS a medieval procedure, It is unnecessary in virtually all cases, it is an agonizingly painful procedure that results in hundreds dead in the US and thousands left with permanent nerve damage and it has no place in our society.

 

[Phasmal]

(That, I think, is the key here, is that insurance won't cover circumcision on adult or teenage males, only on infant ones. Fix this discrepancy, and anti-infant-circumcision arguments will carry a lot more weight).

Agreed. If non-infant circumcision was a free procedure provided by universal healthcare, as it should be, I would be far more likely to not have my child circumcised and let them decide for themselves once they reach puberty.

I'm just imagining this future conversation. `Sorry son, I know you wanted the end of your dick, but you know, insurance.`

If you want to circumsize your kid, its none of my business, but I just thought that was kind of funny.
I'm against it, but me being against it doesnt affect anyone but my own future children.

Also: what if your future/(current?) lady who bears such child is against it?

 

[BRex21]

Sorry, I really disagree with you there. Babies, when in pain, cry. I acted exactly like I did before, as did my brother. There's no basis to claim that we were in pain. Plus, it's pretty safe to say that I was too anithetised to know what was going on at the time.

A common side effect of excruciating pain is something called shock, the pain usually causes infants to drift into shock and be unable to cry. This is frequently documented during circumcisions.

And why wouldn't anasthesia remove the pain? That's its job. And giving a baby enough to make an area feel numb shouldn't be too hard. It's not like massive doses are needed for such a small creature.

How about that the most common amount of anaesthetic used is zero? would that decrease its effectiveness?

 

[Duruznik]

Isn't that a bit hyperbolic? an apt comparison. Beating a child hurts it. A lot. And can maim the child for life, just like has been cited as the result of circumcision in multiple peer reviewed studies showing the physiological and psychological trauma of this procedure . Circumcision happens to a child who's out cold Fully conscious and UN-anaesthetized in a medical environment, can't feel a thing feels excruciating pain often culminating in shock and occasionally death, the exact same response someone would have if they were tortured to death, and doesn't leave Often leaves him deeply scarred for life.

I fixed your quote for you. also your typo's. Its pretty clear that you have no understanding of the procedure used to circumcise infants, this IS a medieval procedure, It is unnecessary in virtually all cases, it is an agonizingly painful procedure that results in hundreds dead in the US and thousands left with permanent nerve damage and it has no place in our society.

Ok, to recap my previous posts on this thread: I've been to circumcisions. I'm a Jew, and in Israel we do things very differently than in the US. That's the procedure I'm talking about. Hell, I AM circumcised. In all circumcisions I've been to, the baby's always acted perfectly fine during and after the procedure. Oh, and in Israel, the baby is practically out cold during the procedure.

No comment on what happens in the US. I have no knowledge on the matter.

And why wouldn't anasthesia remove the pain? That's its job. And giving a baby enough to make an area feel numb shouldn't be too hard. It's not like massive doses are needed for such a small creature.

How about that the most common amount of anaesthetic used is zero? would that decrease its effectiveness?

Please, read my posts. I said I was talking about Israeli Circumcision. Here we use anasthesia.

 

[JoshTheater]

I'm just imagining this future conversation. `Sorry son, I know you wanted the end of your dick, but you know, insurance.

Perhaps you should learn what circumcision actually is first. There is no removing the end/tip/head of the penis. The only thing that is removed is the layer of skin around the shaft of the penis. The head remains untouched.

This is just one of those common misconceptions that confuses me. You'd think circumcised people would know it wasn't true since they still have their penis head, and that uncircumcised people would know it wasn't true because they actually have the foreskin and know what it's like.

Also: what if your future/(current?) lady who bears such child is against it?

I would likely discuss such a thing with them before getting married. That said, especially in the U.S., I doubt there are hardly ANY women who have a strong opinion about it, seeing as, you know, they don't have penises. And I think my girlfriend/wife would likely take my experiences and perspective on the subject, being someone who was not circumcised, as carrying more weight than anything she may have heard.