Circumcision: a Pillar of American ignorance

[Megumi0505]

Yes, we're ignorant fools for not getting what the big deal is. Hate us, curse us, pity us or whatever. This thread is stupid...

 

[Mikkaddo]

What say you? This is not an attack, only an outcry.

I say untill I was about 20 I had no idea it was so damned common outside of the Jewish faith, I know for certain I'm not cut, and as far as I know my father isn't either . . . not that I'm willing to take down his pants to be sure either.

 

[Megumi0505]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

I used to think so, but I hear some women actually feel empowered by their circumcisions.

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

 

[Duruznik]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

 

[BRex21]

What is wrong with you guys? Why do you care? Why does it matter?

Why would it matter if I beat my child, it does not affect you? Yet we have laws against that. Its almost like we live in a society with rules put in place to protect those who cant protect themselves.

What's non-essential? And before you answer with fingers or toes, bear in mind that balance is dependent on the toes, so missing ones mean a decrease in balance. And fingers equate to a decline in grip. How many athletes you see running around with less than ten fingers or toes?

You're exaggerating an experience by marginalizing certain aspects of it. This is not a medieval procedure anymore where a quack swings away with a knife. There's magical inventions called anesthetic and devices that make the procedure safe, fast, and painless. If you're going to hate something at least make sure it's not for the wrong reasons.

There is a man currently living with about 25% of his brain( http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors.html ), and was born that way. He lived a perfectly normal life but is simply missing a very large portion of his brain and is doing so with very few ill effects. with modern medicine we could, Theoretically, remove large portions of infants brains with minimal deaths.
You say there is a magical invention called aesthetic... however what you don't realize is that they don't give it to children. They strap them down and cut into a piece of sensitive nerve filled tissue usually resulting in shock and permanent and observable psychological and physiological harm. Why do we do this? Because then we don't need to teach our children proper hygiene. Oh and on a side note, the cultured tissue from a foreskin is worth about a hundred grand, making it the most valuable human tissue to be harvested. Just a thought.

 

[Jonluw]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

 

[Duruznik]

Why would it matter if I beat my child, it does not affect you? Yet we have laws against that. Its almost like we live in a society with rules put in place to protect those who cant protect themselves.

Isn't that a bit hyperbolic? Beating a child hurts it. A lot. And can maim the child for life. Circumcision happens to a child who's out cold in a medical enviroment, can't feel a thing and doesn't leave him deeply scarred for life.

 

[Duruznik]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

WWell, the one I'm referring to is the one practiced in religious cerimonies by Jews (and Muslims, if I'm not mistaken)- removal of the overskin. Other procedures may indeed count as mutilation, but I can't speak for them because I have no experience with them.

 

[Jonluw]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

WWell, the one I'm referring to is the one practiced in religious cerimonies by Jews (and Muslims, if I'm not mistaken)- removal of the overskin. Other procedures may indeed count as mutilation, but I can't speak for them because I have no experience with them.

That's the one I'm talking about as the most common one, yes.
It is a quite painful procedure. Certainly more so than many kinds of female cricumcision.

 

[Jegsimmons]

im circumcised and my dick works fine, no problems.

i swear circumcision is stupidest fucking argument anybody can come up with. If one person does something a particular way that has no god damn difference on anything, then someone else has to ***** about it.

People need to grow the fuck up, it doesnt hurt no matter what stance you take.

 

[Duruznik]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

WWell, the one I'm referring to is the one practiced in religious cerimonies by Jews (and Muslims, if I'm not mistaken)- removal of the overskin. Other procedures may indeed count as mutilation, but I can't speak for them because I have no experience with them.

That's the one I'm talking about as the most common one, yes.
It is a quite painful procedure. Certainly more so than many kinds of female cricumcision.

From what I've experienced, it's not that bad. I just asked my parents and they said both me and my brother acted just fine after we got nicked. I didn't eat quite as much as usual (it affects apetite for a week usually), but my brother even nursed shortly after the procedure. Both of us acted perfectly normal.

 

[Jonluw]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

WWell, the one I'm referring to is the one practiced in religious cerimonies by Jews (and Muslims, if I'm not mistaken)- removal of the overskin. Other procedures may indeed count as mutilation, but I can't speak for them because I have no experience with them.

That's the one I'm talking about as the most common one, yes.
It is a quite painful procedure. Certainly more so than many kinds of female cricumcision.

From what I've experienced, it's not that bad. I just asked my parents and they said both me and my brother acted just fine after we got nicked. I didn't eat quite as much as usual (it affects apetite for a week usually), but my brother even nursed shortly after the procedure. Both of us acted perfectly normal.

The fact that you are too young to be subject to any kind of extended trauma when the circumcision is performed does not make the procedure any less painful.

 

[Jegsimmons]

First of all, get off your goddamn high horse and using this as an excuse to insult Americans. My southern neighbours aren't all blind sheep you realize? Circumcision is religious, which is not synonymous with society. If you want to criticize circumcision, that does not equate to criticizing a fucking country.

I'm circumcised. Does that mean that my parents were ignorant? That seems to be what you're implying if all ignorant americans get circumcised. I live with it, just because you take umbrage with the idea does not give you the right to tell others what and what not to do.

Id kiss you but im not that kind of guy...so ill buy you a steak dinner.

 

[Duruznik]

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

WWell, the one I'm referring to is the one practiced in religious cerimonies by Jews (and Muslims, if I'm not mistaken)- removal of the overskin. Other procedures may indeed count as mutilation, but I can't speak for them because I have no experience with them.

That's the one I'm talking about as the most common one, yes.
It is a quite painful procedure. Certainly more so than many kinds of female cricumcision.

From what I've experienced, it's not that bad. I just asked my parents and they said both me and my brother acted just fine after we got nicked. I didn't eat quite as much as usual (it affects apetite for a week usually), but my brother even nursed shortly after the procedure. Both of us acted perfectly normal.

The fact that you are too young to be subject to any kind of extended trauma when the circumcision is performed does not make the procedure any less painful.

Well, I didn't act like I was in pain. Hell, my brother nursed shortly after the procedure. My parents say we acted just fine. Apparently we didn't even cry during the procedure.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

I agree mutilation is a bit far. But i dont really see the point. It seems the only reason we let circumcision happen is because we are used to it. Its socially accepted for no apparent reason. Assuming functionality stays the same with or without (and it doesnt) AND putting aside that all health benefits can be achieved with cleaning while all negatives (rare though they are) tend to be permenant and painfull, i ask simply this.

Is it ok for me to tattoo my childs penis matt black in a medically safe environment?

Any doctor worth his salt would advise against it if it isn't a corrective procedure.

Any medical procedure carries inherent risks, baby boys have died from being circumsised, and people want to risk their child's health so their dick looks different?

I question the morals of parents that would obsess over a child's genetalia.

To put some of this into context. Move your finger over your palm, then over the back of your hand. That's the sensitivity difference we're talking about here.

This is very well said. I just dont see WHY. People argue you shouldnt care if it makes no difference, but if it makes no difference then WHY even bother doing ANYTHING to another persons penis. Why?! Its just weird as fuck. I wouldnt remove my own earlobes, i dont use them for anything, i dont even notice they are there. But why would i bother? Whats even the point? We can do pointless surgery on me all day but there isnt any point and its just a little weird.

EDIT: I feel the people arguing for this RIGHT to cut someone elses penis are just doing it for the sake of preserving a right, rather than what the rights about. I always say that if you made anally inserting a pinapple illegal, people would fight it and start inserting them. People are weird that way.

 

[Jonluw]

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?

Well, yes, but the procedures are wildly different in terms of how major and painful the operation is. I mean male circumcision doesn't involve nicking off the head of the phallus, right?

Some kinds of male circumcision certainly do, yes.
It's not the kind most common in the states though.

Fact is there is a shitload of different kinds of female circumcision. About half of which are less intrusive and painful than the most common male circumcision. These are all illegal though.

WWell, the one I'm referring to is the one practiced in religious cerimonies by Jews (and Muslims, if I'm not mistaken)- removal of the overskin. Other procedures may indeed count as mutilation, but I can't speak for them because I have no experience with them.

That's the one I'm talking about as the most common one, yes.
It is a quite painful procedure. Certainly more so than many kinds of female cricumcision.

From what I've experienced, it's not that bad. I just asked my parents and they said both me and my brother acted just fine after we got nicked. I didn't eat quite as much as usual (it affects apetite for a week usually), but my brother even nursed shortly after the procedure. Both of us acted perfectly normal.

The fact that you are too young to be subject to any kind of extended trauma when the circumcision is performed does not make the procedure any less painful.

Well, I didn't act like I was in pain. Hell, my brother nursed shortly after the procedure. My parents say we acted just fine. Apparently we didn't even cry during the procedure.

It's quite common for newborns to go into a sort of catatonic state when they undergo great pain.
I'd like to know how you would gauge how much pain a newborn is in from a mere layman's casual observation though. It generally isn't easy to spot pain in infants. Studies which measure heartrate and hormone levels do not give quite such a comfortable image of the procedure.
Know what? Just google 'circumcision pain', or watch the Penn & Teller episode on circumcision.
That will also give you a bit of information on the potential negative psychological effects of the procedure. Hint: There are enough people who wish they'd never been circumcised for there to be a wikipedia page for foreskin restoration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration
We have at least two of them in this very thread in fact.

 

[JoshTheater]

By that logic you should also cut off your future son's balls so that he doesn't get life-threatening sexually transmitted diseases. He can deal with not having sex, after all it may save his life one day.

Removal of a vestigial thing with no proven negative consequence is apparently comparable with removal of the testicles.

Good logic bro

You fool, the post I was responding to said:

I'm not circumcised and it's caused me quite few problems that I won't go into detail about here.

If I ever have a son, I'm going to have them circumcised. They'll just have to deal with the less pleasure.

Which means that our friend JoshTheater is planning on having his son's dick cut up because of potential problems that the foreskin can have. My post was highlighting the flaw in that logic which is that all parts of the body can cause problems, some worse than others. Sexually transmitted diseases are unarguably a much bigger problem than anything that the foreskin can experience. Ergo if you're so worried about problems with the foreskin that you want to remove it then you might as well remove unnecessary to life body parts that can cause much bigger problems.

But whatever the main point of my argument is that doing an unnecessary major surgery on an infant is a pretty barbaric and evil thing to do.

Circumcision is a major surgery? The fact that you would call it that pretty much makes anything else you have to say about the subject null and void.

Read some of the other posts in this thread. Several people have pointed out that most modern studies have shown that it's unclear whether circumcision makes any real difference as to pleasure. One person cited survey results that showed about 75% of men who got circumcised as adults reported no difference afterwards.

I said "they'd have to deal with less pleasure" but I was speaking hypothetically, as in if it somehow turns out that it does cause less pleasure, which hasn't been proven by any current studies on the subject, then they'll just have to deal with it.

Seems to me that if there are no proven negative consequences, and dozens of legitimate positive reasons to do it (makes it easier to clean, less likelihood of getting infections or diseases), then I see no reason why NOT to do it. I sure wish my parents had had it done to me as a child, so that I didn't have to worry about getting it done as an adult (which means I have to take a full week or so of staying in bed, which I probably won't be able to do until I graduate college).

So other than your completely ridiculous assertion that circumcision is a "major" surgery, I don't see how you have any ground here. Circumcision isn't barbaric or cruel. I've never once heard someone who's been circumcised, as an infant or an adult, complain about it or express regret.

When you can come to me with some argument that actually makes a lick of sense, I'll be willing to consider not circumcising a son I might have.

 

[drisky]

Wonder if people don't make these threads knowing they'll get a lot of responses from it. Oh well happy to raise the comment count. Also, opening a forum about (Insert Flamebait).

Thats what I was thinking "Circumcision and all Americans are ignorant pricks, I'll get new badges for sure."

 

[Duruznik]

Well, I didn't act like I was in pain. Hell, my brother nursed shortly after the procedure. My parents say we acted just fine. Apparently we didn't even cry during the procedure.

It's quite common for newborns to go into a sort of catatonic state when they undergo great pain.
I'd like to know how you would gauge how much pain a newborn is in from a mere layman's casual observation though. It generally isn't easy to spot pain in infants. Studies which measure heartrate and hormone levels do not give quite such a comfortable image of the procedure.
Know what? Just google 'circumcision pain', or watch the Penn & Teller episode on circumcision.
That will also give you a bit of information on the potential negative psychological effects of the procedure. Hint: There are enough people who wish they'd never been circumcised for there to be a wikipedia page for foreskin restoration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration
We have at least two of them in this very thread in fact.

As for those 2 people- they have my sympathies, really. I'm not saying this isn't worthy of debate, but Goddamn if some people are overreacting. My folks aren't complete monsters for removing a small bit of skin from my body.

As for the pain- well, I trust my own mother to judge her baby's behavior enough to know when it's in pain.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

I agree mutilation is a bit far. But i dont really see the point. It seems the only reason we let circumcision happen is because we are used to it. Its socially accepted for no apparent reason. Assuming functionality stays the same with or without (and it doesnt) AND putting aside that all health benefits can be achieved with cleaning while all negatives (rare though they are) tend to be permenant and painfull, i ask simply this.

Is it ok for me to tattoo my childs penis matt black in a medically safe environment?

Any doctor worth his salt would advise against it if it isn't a corrective procedure.

Any medical procedure carries inherent risks, baby boys have died from being circumsised, and people want to risk their child's health so their dick looks different?

I question the morals of parents that would obsess over a child's genetalia.

To put some of this into context. Move your finger over your palm, then over the back of your hand. That's the sensitivity difference we're talking about here.

This is very well said. I just dont see WHY. People argue you shouldnt care if it makes no difference, but if it makes no difference then WHY even bother doing ANYTHING to another persons penis. Why?! Its just weird as fuck. I wouldnt remove my own earlobes, i dont use them for anything, i dont even notice they are there. But why would i bother? Whats even the point? We can do pointless surgery on me all day but there isnt any point and its just a little weird.

I don't think it's pointless. It's part of my people's culture. Circumcision is an inherent law in Judaism. It's part of our identity. My parents are completely secular in every shape and form (we drive around on Saturdays, don't keep kosher at all, eat pigs and sea fruit, the works) and they still had both me and my brother circumcised.

Can't speak for the non-Jews and non-Muslims who practice it, though.

EDIT: I feel the people arguing for this RIGHT to cut someone elses penis are just doing it for the sake of preserving a right, rather than what the rights about. I always say that if you made anally inserting a pinapple illegal, people would fight it and start inserting them. People are weird that way.

Sorry, but no. Just no. At least, not most people. 14 million Jews do it because it's part of our culture, not because we're fighting to preserve a right or for the sake of it. We did it way before it was a debated issue, and will do it long after it is. I imagine it's like that for most of the Muslims who practice it, too.

 

[robert022614]

Im circumcised and honestly it doesnt bug me at all. Also maybe its a regional thing (im in Texas) but most girls seem to greatly prefer a circumcised penis than an elephant trunk.

I dont really care either way as I have never had any negative affects. I mean if I feel less and can go longer before I orgasm who cares. I still orgasm and the girl seems to as well (at least she is a good actor if faking)

On the other hand I get how it would suck if you did mind and your parents already did that to you when you were a baby. I might agree with the whole maybe you should have to wait. Honestly I think I would probably do it as an adult if I was given the chance, but damn it would suck to remember that.

I seen a toddler with like size zero plugs. That was a little bit like WTF to me so I can see how anything is crazy seeming to people such as getting girls ears pierced too young or at all.