Circumcision: a Pillar of American ignorance

[Stilkon]

Why are you saying that America in particular is keeping this practice going? One would think that Israel would have a higher circumcision-per-capita rate.

 

[Jonluw]

Why are you saying that America in particular is keeping this practice going? One would think that Israel would have a higher circumcision-per-capita rate.

In the US, boys are circumcised regardless of religious status.
The jews' and muslims' reasons for circumcision aren't debatable. They accept that having your penis sliced hurts, but "hey, God says we have to do it".
In the US, circumcision is a social norm, not a religious bidding.
Basically, it's just picking your battles.

 

[Robert Ewing]

There is absolutely no benefit to circumcision. All that guff about it being cleaner is nonsense. A circumcised penis gets as dirty or as clean as an un-circumcised one.

If anything circumcision has but one argument to lose against un-circumcision. In that it desensitizes the penis so that it makes sex significantly less pleasurable for the male. But that's really a little foible that means nothing.

Overall, I think it's an aesthetic thing, that should be left completely up to the person who's penis it is. If he want's it tucked, then so be it. I disagree with it being done at birth though.

 

[spartan231490]

It doesn't really matter that much either way, the risk of complications is very small. Furthermore, the main reason is not some "i was so my son will be" it is religion, and just because you don't believe, gives you absolutely no right to question the faith of others. Just like their faith gives them no right to question your lack there of.

 

[Stilkon]

Why are you saying that America in particular is keeping this practice going? One would think that Israel would have a higher circumcision-per-capita rate.

In the US, boys are circumcised regardless of religious status.
The jews' and muslims' reasons for circumcision aren't debatable. They accept that having your penis sliced hurts, but "hey, God says we have to do it".
In the US, circumcision is a social norm, not a religious bidding.
Basically, it's just picking your battles.

Well that's kinda strange, because I am an American male who has gone uncircumcised. Furthermore, I know absolutely no one who is circumcised who is not Jewish. I have never heard of this to be a "social" thing at all.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

If you're circumcised as a baby those neurons would never have been assigned to "willy pleasure reception" in the first place so they can be used elsewhere, like the head of the penis. Seriously, I would not want more sensitivity in my penis during sex, it's awesome as is.

Not how it works. The foreskin is one of a few places on the body that contains a high concentration of meissner's corpuscles. They are responsible for fine touch sensation. They're highly specialized mechanoceptors and are the reason your sense of touch is so great in the hands (as opposed to say, the elbows). You lose the foreskin, they're gone. They don't go elsewhere.

And you don't want more sensitivity, i.e. pleasure, during sex? Oooookay then.

I was not referring to the receptors in the skin, I know if those are removed they're gone, but I was referring to the area of the brain assigned to receive signals from said receptors. If you cover a newborn infant's eyes for a few weeks so they get zero chance to see anything, the neurons that would normally have been devoted to visual interpretation receive no input and either die or get used by other systems. I imagine the same thing happens if an infant is circumcised. Also, my point about sensitivity is that I find sex plenty pleasurable as is, so I have zero reason to resent my parents for deciding to circumcise me. Most guys complaining about it never experienced anything else, so I don't really think they know what they're talking about.

 

[Jonluw]

Why are you saying that America in particular is keeping this practice going? One would think that Israel would have a higher circumcision-per-capita rate.

In the US, boys are circumcised regardless of religious status.
The jews' and muslims' reasons for circumcision aren't debatable. They accept that having your penis sliced hurts, but "hey, God says we have to do it".
In the US, circumcision is a social norm, not a religious bidding.
Basically, it's just picking your battles.

Well that's kinda strange, because I am an American male who has gone uncircumcised. Furthermore, I know absolutely no one who is circumcised who is not Jewish. I have never heard of this to be a "social" thing at all.

Really?
From what I hear, circumcision is quite common in the US.
"In 2005, about 56 percent of male newborns were circumcised prior to release from the hospital according to statistics from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#United_States

 

[irishda]

And the pros of circumcision are really debatable.

The cons are also really debatable. That's why these threads keep popping up.

 

[Jonluw]

And the pros of circumcision are really debatable.

The cons are also really debatable. That's why these threads keep popping up.

The cons is that you are cutting a real child with a scalpel.
And you're doing it without their consent.
Hardly debatable.
Cut anyone else and they'll throw you in jail.

See, if you're fine with that, I want you to be consistent and be accepting of people cutting off whatever part of their child they want, so long as it's non-essential.

 

[BabySinclair]

Have you read the Wikipedia page, checked their sources, or medical journals? The medical jury's out. Has been for years, hell several surveys say that circumcision increases pleasure. Literally took 15 seconds of google for the wiki. Here's the link specifically for sexual effects of circumcision and the list of findings for the past decade+ . Take a look, educate yourself, then get back to me when you see neither side can claim that it does or doesn't impede sexual performance. Before you go at someone for not checking sources, make sure to post some.

For everyone else, can we let this die already? This is the 4th thread on the topic, according to a quick searchbar check. It's going to get a "katana" ban if this keeps up and while a single thread of pointless bickering is fine, I'll grant the civil liberties part is fine but that's always far behind penis performance, we really don't need four threads of "their penis looks and works differently" because it really doesn't (see above.) If you want to make it about personal liberties and parenting, feel free; but you can do so much more with it if you expand beyond just circumcisions.

umm... Majority of those studies say that only 60-70% were satisfied or felt an improvement, amd there were studies that showed it took longer to recover after orgasm and more frequent ejaculation problems. Doesn't seem worth it to just say fuck you to the 40% who werent lucky enough.

Over half of the 'better pleasure' after circumcision seemed a bit skewed and were either surveys or weren't even stated. Most of them were opinions around people who got circumcised for medical reasons. If they had a problem with their dick I would hope it would feel better afterwards.

It doesn't seem too conculsive with the majority of the studies saying nothing was found.

Check the p values, most of the studies are statistically insignificant and really shouldn't be values all that much. The ones that are statistically significant lie on both sides of the argument, Masood (2005) and Yang (2008). Masood specifically shows that it can both increase and decrease sensitivity. While true that it doesn't say how many were elective and how many were medical, it still shows that the debate is still neutral (I pretty much ignored the overal section because of the same reason you did.)

 

[irishda]

And the pros of circumcision are really debatable.

The cons are also really debatable. That's why these threads keep popping up.

The cons is that you are cutting a real child with a scalpel.
And you're doing it without their consent.
Hardly debatable.
Cut anyone else and they'll throw you in jail.

See, if you're fine with that, I want you to be consistent and be accepting of people cutting off whatever part of their child they want, so long as it's non-essential.

What's non-essential? And before you answer with fingers or toes, bear in mind that balance is dependent on the toes, so missing ones mean a decrease in balance. And fingers equate to a decline in grip. How many athletes you see running around with less than ten fingers or toes?

You're exaggerating an experience by marginalizing certain aspects of it. This is not a medieval procedure anymore where a quack swings away with a knife. There's magical inventions called anesthetic and devices that make the procedure safe, fast, and painless. If you're going to hate something at least make sure it's not for the wrong reasons.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

It really doesn't matter does it. Its humanity now and most woman would be put off by an uncircumcised dick as they are few and far between. It doesn't make much difference, apart from the pain to having it done....which sucked, i can tell you. But is done for either medical or religious purposes. But, to me, is no less different from piercings and tattoos in that you are changing your bodies look for the sake of it. Its normality for most people and not an issue for anyone.

 

[Jonluw]

And the pros of circumcision are really debatable.

The cons are also really debatable. That's why these threads keep popping up.

The cons is that you are cutting a real child with a scalpel.
And you're doing it without their consent.
Hardly debatable.
Cut anyone else and they'll throw you in jail.

See, if you're fine with that, I want you to be consistent and be accepting of people cutting off whatever part of their child they want, so long as it's non-essential.

What's non-essential?

Earlobes, Labia, Toenails etc.
Of course, I could restrain myself to just making cuts in their skin instead of actually cutting parts off.

You're exaggerating an experience by marginalizing certain aspects of it. This is not a medieval procedure anymore where a quack swings away with a knife. There's magical inventions called anesthetic and devices that make the procedure safe, fast, and painless.

Painless?
I believe you overestimate modern anaesthetic.
To claim that forcefully removing a piece of skin from the penis - a piece with an extraordinarily high concentration of nerve endings even - with only moderate local anaesthetic is painless is preposterous.
Try googling circumcision pain.

That is of course not the only reason to hate forced circumcision. It has potentially quite negative psychological effects.
There are also risks of complications. These range from 0.06% to 55% depending on reports.

 

[owen20011993]

typical american problem. here in the netherlands almost nobody is.

 

[Something Amyss]

The only reason (Outside of religion), is that is can reduce the chances of catching HIV, something that has been huge problem within 3rd-world countries

Well, there are other reasons, but they're by and large debatable.

Still, when have you ever known humanity to let facts get in the way of a good argument?

That's why religion's such a dangerous part of this equation. Religion has a huge impact over the transmission of HIV in many third world countries. Africa has a lot of regions where this would help (Though there are other issues). A lot of religious folks will not support condoms, sex education, etc. Our (The US) aid is often predicated on not talking abortion and the like, so we'll let people die from preventable diseases just to maintain our "moral" high ground on abortion. Or sex in general.

So yeah, the medical reasons are slim, especially when you consider we could be practicing safe sex or something RIDICULOUS like that, but religion is a pretty serious deal. And yes, I know I wandered to other points but they are related points.

We're a silly, superstitious people.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Circumcision: the new rape threads for the Escapist.

I think this is a non-issue, but the really stupid part of these threads is all the users citing "Children are getting mutilated" as a reason. When the hell did escapist users start caring about children? This is the same forum that hates kids because of the censorship placed on TV, would rather the entire population was immortal instead of reproductive, and argued that not being able to kill children in video games was "breaking their immersion". Now people are getting indignant because of a procedure that has enough pros and cons on both sides to make this really a non-issue. You don't care about kids, Escapist, so stop using them as ammunition.

No one hates all kids and this is not new stop taking the views of a vocal minority and if you do not like a thread don't comment on it and it will die faster pleading with people on the internet is like pissing into a hurricane where if you're piss hits you it functions like an acid with a PH of 1.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Reliable citation needed for anyone claiming that circumcision makes sex any less enjoyable.

Anyone who says it is less pleasurable can't be right as you can't measure pleasure but what circumcision does do and there are studies which I could find that says the penis loses some sensitivity to fine touch. So it is less sensitive so you feel less whether that makes it more or less pleasurable is down to the person.

Although for many people the sensitivity does add to the pleasure.

 

[irishda]

And the pros of circumcision are really debatable.

The cons are also really debatable. That's why these threads keep popping up.

The cons is that you are cutting a real child with a scalpel.
And you're doing it without their consent.
Hardly debatable.
Cut anyone else and they'll throw you in jail.

See, if you're fine with that, I want you to be consistent and be accepting of people cutting off whatever part of their child they want, so long as it's non-essential.

What's non-essential?

Earlobes, Labia, Toenails etc.
Of course, I could restrain myself to just making cuts in their skin instead of actually cutting parts off.

Well to start, we already do cut our toenails. Secondly, if it's ever determined that making those cuts in the skin or cutting off ear lobes and labias help reduce the risk of STD infections, then we'll probably be having those arguments too.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

Its just a clipped dick.

Tell those women in Africa, "stop whining, it's just a clipped clit."

Why dont you tell them you just made that comparison? See how they react to that.

Just see what Ayaan Hirsi Ali [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFNhM-F089E] thinks.

 

[. . . sleepy . . .]

Medical Science to the rescue: UNCIRCUMCISED PENISES ARE LESS HYGIENIC.