"Civil War" Vs "Dawn of Justice" - Which will do it better?

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Again your basing this one what? Show me your source about WB not assuming people already knowing the lore and I might agree with you.

6 Superman movies; 3 covered his origin.
7 Batman movies (8 if you include Batman vs Superman); 4 covered his origin.

 

[Kyrian007]

Civil War. And they have the far harder job to do to impress. All Dawn of Justice has to do is be better than Man of Steel and I'll be happy. Or happier at any rate. And as bad as Man of Steel was, Uwe Boll would have a chance at making a better movie. Hell, all DoJ has to do is drop Snyder's freaking shaky-cam overuse that stank up MoS and DoJ will be the better movie even if it ends with Superman farting a rainbow of friendship directly into the face of Batfleck.

On the other hand, this is the first time the MCU has tackled one of the big label changing events from the comics. This is almost as big as DC trying to pull off a "Crisis" movie. Yes, the MCU has had the far greater amount of success adapting comics into movies recently... but this movie is the biggest "event" they've tried to adapt. They clearly have to more difficult task.

But somehow I trust that the MCU has it figured out, even though DC has the far easier job. I won't give much credit to the DCU until they just reboot... again, and start over leaving MoS to be forgotten with the Green Lantern movie where it belongs.

 

[Cicada 5]

no, the batman trilogy doesn't count because batman isn't a superhero, he's a rich hero.

And this doesn't apply to Tony Stark how?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hard to say which one will "win", but they'll both probably do just fine. From a fanboy/geek POV I think CA:CW will be the better film, but John and Jane Q. Public will go out and see anything because it's the new movie that came out. They're going to see the Avengers fighting each other in one and go "aw neat!", and the DC-Big-Three in the other and go "aw neat!"

 

[elvor0]

Batman vs. Superman has been done, a lot, and it's been done really, really well several times. So even if they do do it well, it may fall flat just because The Dark Knight Returns did it better.

I fucking love Batman, total fanboy since I was 6. But I think that the important thing here too, is that despite Miller being totally insane these days, a lot of writers forget that the Bats vs Supes fight in TDRK actually laid the groundwork for making its fight work using in universe rationale. He avoided the issue of "well Supes could just throw him into the sun" argument because Clark isn't fighting Bruce, not really, he's just trying to get him to stand down. Not only that but he's in a severely weakened state from a lack of sunlight while recovering from having been hit by a nuclear blast. On the flipside; In TDKR universe, Kryptonite seems extremely rare too, going by Bruces statement that the kryptonite arrow "took years and cost a fortune."

Heck, even Snyder, whom I love as a Batman writer went full ham recently with Batman having a supersuit capable of taking down the entire Justice League with more or less, a flick of his hand. And this is while they're in insane, joker toxin fueled rages. Even Batman pointing that the whole Supes vs Bats argument is stupid because "no one wins" is completely undermined by having Bats beat the entire Justice League on his own in one suit. I sort of question whether or not having that scene in there was his decision or not by him calling the argument stupid at the end of the scene though. Even Tower of Babil had plans that required set up.

 

[rcs619]

Marvel, even without the fanboyism, DC seems to be on a way to flood the movie with too much information and characters that will overshadow the moral question, also I'm really fearing they'll just go staight "Batman is right" because of how more popular he is, while Iron man and Captain America has enough following on each side to make them both sympathetic.

Pretty much. Marvel has shown that they generally have an idea of how to do these things. Even the "bad" MCU films are still decent enough, with enough good bits to enjoy in a re-run or with friends.

DC though, they've shown that they are completely inept at doing *anything* with their superheroes that doesn't involve animation (or the two Nolan batman movies that were actually good).

Considering how brown, gray and dour Man of Steel was (and how much Dawn of Justice seems to be heading in that same direction), I think I'll stick to the franchise with the talking raccoon, a size-shifting techno-fairy and actual moments of humor and human emotions.

 

[Cicada 5]

3. Batman vs. Superman has been done, a lot, and it's been done really, really well several times. So even if they do do it well, it may fall flat just because The Dark Knight Returns did it better.

I am hopeful that Dawn of Justice will be good. I really hope it is. But I somehow doubt it, and I doubt this particular aspect of it is going to be compelling.

hero vs hero fights in general have been done. By your logic, Marvel should not even bother with Civil War which is an adaption of a comic that was far less well received.

 

[shintakie10]

"Hey, don't worry everyone! I know there are forces out there that could end humanity, but Captain said he's got it so, let's just trust that. You want Chinese?"

I don't think you're giving the premise its due credit. I don't know exactly what the movie's plot will be, but based on the information available, it seems like a metaphor for certain Constitution-violating legislations passed in the wake of certain terrorist attacks on American soil, where requiring superhumans to register with the government is an act analogous to requiring gun owners to register* themselves with the government, which would be a violation of the Second and...Fourteenth, I think, Amendments of the Bill of Rights. From that angle, Captain America is just living up to his legend and supporting the ideals the country has enshrined as fundamental, via the literary device of protecting an innocent man who is also his friend from having his rights knowingly violated by a government acting out of fear.


*Which I'd actually support, for the record, but never mind.

That's the premise for the actual Civil War arc from the comics.

Unless they left a huge plot related point like that out of the trailers (which is possible) the Civil War is about Bucky and solely Bucky. People want to bring the Winter Soldier in for the numerous crimes he's committed. Cap goes "But he's my friend so I have to stick up for him!" and beats the shit out of everyone to stop Bucky from being arrested.

Cap is not at all put in a good light in that trailer.

"There's a reason we have laws. If we don't follow them then we're no better than the bad guys." - Tony Stark

"Bite my shiny adamantium/vibranium shield" - Captain America. (I may have made that one up).

 

[hermes]

The single biggest indictment though is the fact that WB has proven that they have absolutely no respect for the source material.

Thank you for writing this line, because it gives me the perspective I need to finally articulate an idea I couldn't before:

DC is the Konami of comic books.

Wow that is the stupidist sentence I have ever seen in my life.

Warner Bros. is not going as far as stop making movies/TV shows etc. in favor of making solely Superman themed Slot Machines or anything

Weeeell...

There are a lot of interviews that make it look like executive meddling was the reason for many of the derailing in Batman & Robin, made specifically to produce and sell more merchandise.

So, no; they didn't turn Superman into a slot machine, but they did turn Batman into a skater...

 

[JimB]

Unless they left a huge plot related point like that out of the trailers (which is possible) the Civil War is about Bucky and solely Bucky.

I have a hard time believing that enormous stack of papers with "SOKOVIA ACCORDS" printed on them are all about Bucky. Bucky is doubtlessly involved somehow, but I think it's unfairly reductive to say it's all about Steve protecting his friend.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

And as bad as Man of Steel was, Uwe Boll would have a chance at making a better movie. Hell, all DoJ has to do is drop Snyder's freaking shaky-cam overuse that stank up MoS

OK I am confused I thought Zack Snyder was more known for his overuse of slow motion, not shaky cam? And no Uwe Boll would be worse. I watched In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege story which is imo the absolute worse movie of his filmography.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Civil War will at least be entertaining. With the exception of the oil rig scene, MoS was an odd mish-mash of character study and disaster porn. It was tiring. Dawn of Justice doesn't seem, for now, to be any better in that regard.

But Jason Momoa is in it, so I'll give it a shot.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Marvel, even without the fanboyism, DC seems to be on a way to flood the movie with too much information and characters that will overshadow the moral question, also I'm really fearing they'll just go staight "Batman is right" because of how more popular he is, while Iron man and Captain America has enough following on each side to make them both sympathetic.

Pretty much. Marvel has shown that they generally have an idea of how to do these things. Even the "bad" MCU films are still decent enough, with enough good bits to enjoy in a re-run or with friends.

DC though, they've shown that they are completely inept at doing *anything* with their superheroes that doesn't involve animation (or the two Nolan batman movies that were actually good).

Considering how brown, gray and dour Man of Steel was (and how much Dawn of Justice seems to be heading in that same direction), I think I'll stick to the franchise with the talking raccoon, a size-shifting techno-fairy and actual moments of humor and human emotions.

I will never stop being a fanboy to DC and the direction they are going to.

I hate Rocket, he is an annoying little smart ass that I want to slap his face.

The humor of the movie is stupid and facepalmy. I groaned when Star Lord danced like a buffoon to "distract" the bad guy.

And the emotions? That whole Groot sacrifice. I called it. I knew it was gonna happen the moment I found out that Vin Diesal is playing Groot. Or should I say reprising the role of the Iron Giant.

We Are Groot > Suuuuuupeerrrrmaaaaaaaann. And of course he comes back to life in the end anyway

I had more genuine feelings towards Zod in Man of Steel. Their reactions when they saw Kryton explode. I felt it.

And the moment when young Clark Kent saved the School Bus. And don't give me that "Just let them die dad? Mabye." excuse.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

The single biggest indictment though is the fact that WB has proven that they have absolutely no respect for the source material.

Thank you for writing this line, because it gives me the perspective I need to finally articulate an idea I couldn't before:

DC is the Konami of comic books.

Wow that is the stupidist sentence I have ever seen in my life.

Warner Bros. is not going as far as stop making movies/TV shows etc. in favor of making solely Superman themed Slot Machines or anything

Weeeell...

There are a lot of interviews that make it look like executive meddling was the reason for many of the derailing in Batman & Robin, made specifically to produce and sell more merchandise.

So, no; they didn't turn Superman into a slot machine, but they did turn Batman into a skater...

You know I feel people who bashes Batman and Robin secretly likes the movie now. I mean its colorful, it has humor, and "fun" moments.

Heck I wonder if Moviebob secretly likes Batman and Robin for thsoe very reasons today. I mean there are people that still likes Adam West Batman.

 

[hermes]

Unfortunately, we only have their track record to measure it.

- On one side we have DC, with a dubious track record when it comes to understanding the characters (of the last 4 movies, I would put 2 as good and 2 as mediocre/bad, and that is being generous by counting the Dark Knight among the same continuity), and a trailer that doesn't inspire much confidence. Granted, a trailer could easily be taken out of context and the little context they provide can be read several ways, but there is little evidence there that they even understand who Superman is. In fact, with the kneeling down armies he looks closer to Injustice's Superman or Ultraman than the classical character.

- On the other side we have Marvel, that has a similar track record mostly because they have several times more movies, but it seems to be a lot better at understanding the appeal of the characters it has. Captain America, in particular, has been praised as being a fairly good rendition of the character, in the face of people expecting a jingoist smartass because he has a flag as his emblem. To put it bluntly, the version of the character we saw on the screen was the closest we could even hope to the classical character. Because of that, even when the conflict in the trailer seems to be more reductive than on the comics, I am more willing to give them the benefit of doubt...

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Yeah WB clearly treats the DC source material with no respect, its as if the DCAU that was done by WARNER BROS. ANIMATION clearly neven cared about the:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXph0arElKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUcKJflBG8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQVC2zCC5qA

You clearly fail at history. Warner Bros. and DC have been married with each other for DECADES now. And DC comic books gave us the best comics in the 80s.

I'm not going to argue against the quality of the Animated stuff up to even Young Justice, nor am I going to argue against the quality of DC comics in the 1980's. Heck I'll one up you. Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises along with most of the DC superhero movies made up into the 1990's were largely the gold standard of comic book superhero movies.

There's a problem there: All of this is in the past. Even if the comic books are still great, even if the animated stuff was still amazing... Which the latest runs in comic books has been pretty meh, and animation has devolved to Teen Titans Go!... Still, that's pretty niche, along with the fact that superhero cartoons and comic books are seen largely as kid stuff anyways.

What we're talking about here isn't really the vast sea of DC content, we're talking about the current DCCU, and it's crap. Total crap. Using the the supporting material that is really only followed by the hardcore fanbase is a fan-boy/girl argument. We're talking current DCCU versus current MCU, which if we're being honest, the current MCU absolutely obliterates the current DCCU. Man of Steel set the tone for the current DCCU especially the Justice League movies. That is not promising, considering that DC is coming late to the party, especially considering that the way they're doing it is a hollow attempt to cash in on Marvel's success.

I agree, not sure about the comics, but the DCAU seems worse every time I look at it, especially the animated films are getting worse and worse.

I think the Animated Movies are mostly hit and miss. But why do you think its getting worse and worse?

War wasn't terrible but I admit I found the comic book it was adapted from better.

 

[spartan231490]

no, the batman trilogy doesn't count because batman isn't a superhero, he's a rich hero.

And this doesn't apply to Tony Stark how?

I never said it didn't, though at least iron man is believable fighting against super-villains, unlike a guy wearing kevlar and a cape. Marvel has made many successful super-hero movies, Thor, Cap, ect.

 

[FalloutJack]

I'm really looking forward to Civil War. I had a feeling this was coming even before it was announced. All I had to ask was..."Which of the two Infinity Stones left would be better-suited for a Captain America movie and a Thor movie?" and there it was.

 

[Kyrian007]

And as bad as Man of Steel was, Uwe Boll would have a chance at making a better movie. Hell, all DoJ has to do is drop Snyder's freaking shaky-cam overuse that stank up MoS

OK I am confused I thought Zack Snyder was more known for his overuse of slow motion, not shaky cam? And no Uwe Boll would be worse. I watched In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege story which is imo the absolute worse movie of his filmography.

No, Snyder used to be known for the camera speed gimmick. He seems to be more like a film student adolescent than an actual veteran moviemaker. He finds some new gimmick, learns the technique and likes it and thinks its the "most awesome thing evar" and overuses it to distraction, and then finds a new thing and drops the old one. First it was camera speeds, then it seems he picked up found-footage style shaky-cam for Man of Steel seeing as he post-edited in shaky-cam for every single second of run time (it NEVER STOPS.) In the BvS trailers I can't tell if the shaking is still going on, but he seems to be playing around more with shading and godrays. Perhaps he's left his Paul Greengrass phase and is moving into his J.J. Abrams phase (lets watch for LENS FLARES.) But seriously, in the BvS trailers he's using godrays and shading in pretty pencil-thin visual clues for characterization. He seems to think it's subtle and clever... or he's just REALLY pessimistic about the average intelligence of his audience. Either way I can put up with the grimdark and pretentiousness, as long as it isn't shaking around like a brick in a tumble dryer.