College in the US: Total waste of time

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UberNoodle

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Much of the claims that university is a pointless in the USA also have little basis in other developed countries which have more equitable tertiary education systems and hiring practices. Yet a major factor is that more and more, American society is attempting to monetise knowledge and experience. It just can't be done, in a direct sense.

Whether successful or not, knowledge itself is never useless, and whereas a skills based certificate course may get your foot in the door to work, what kind of work will that be? In the USA today, according to Michio Kaku, a frightening majority of post graduate and higher level scientific study is being done not by citizens but by imported minds. This then carries on to hiring trends in the industry.

What it shows is that the cultural view on education has become more like the view of many other things -- factory line, stamp it out, pack it and ship it. The 'profit' meme on the Net reflects this laziness, and I think that politics and institutions prefer a population focusing on immediate job skills which are ultimately short-sighted, than the alternative which while not always immediately applicable to work, do broaden the mind and understanding.

Calculus may be useless in a sales job or stacking boxes or guiding a tour, but the experience required to master it is not. Similarly, the understanding of the world which it brings may not appear obvious but it has accumulative effect. See the film, Limitless. What society has engineered is a false controversy -- it has engineered this supposed clash between education and success for several reasons, including generating meat for the grinder, averting minds from further expansion, and generally fostering an anti-intellectualism illustrated all over the Net and the media.

There's nothing wrong with University education, and there's nothing useless about it. Efforts against it, or at least to placate it, have been to offer practical courses and to add 'real world' experience to larger curriculum, but in some ways this has made the dissonance worse. Life goes beyond work and accumulating wealth. Don't get me wrong, any job is better than none, but University is not the problem.

It's that unrealistic expectations have been fostered, exacerbated by the ever increasing economic burden of education in America. What were once 'unskilled' jobs have now been made 'skilled jobs' by introducing practical courses at colleges. Apprenticeships and the like are disappearing. Yet this has diminished the value of what tertiary education has traditionally been about. Thus, the problem is that American society is striving so very hard to push square pegs into round holes.
 

ace_blazer

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Rabid Toilet said:
I'm doing a degree in engineering, myself. It's definitely a serious challenge, but the fact that finding a job once I'm done will be easy certainly helps.
Be careful, the US economy engineering wise is currently in a weird place. Is it easier for you to find a job than say an Arts major? Yes, obviously. Is it easy though? No. Even here it's about which type of engineering you do. You might just find that your field of work has been outsourced, or given to an imported worker. There is no way the economy can support the masses of new inexperienced engineering graduates rolling out every semester. More likely than not you'll find yourself in a totally different place than what you were expecting. Just hope that it's something you like, and pays well.
 

the doom cannon

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ace_blazer said:
When looking for engineering jobs, I found the best place to look was at well known college's career fair sites. Just go check out any major university's career fair website and browse the list, then go to each company's website that has something resembling your course of study and submit an application. Also, engineering jobs are hard to find if you limit yourself geographically.
If you go for masters then you work as a grader and/or ta for 1 or 2 classes. It pays most or all of your tuition. Your work salary also jumps 20,000 USD with the masters soooooo yea....

People need to stop assuming that getting a C+ average in your art history major is going to get them somewhere. I think it's a problem with this generation's mindset. We were brought up by parents who are under the impression that college degrees are the shit, and anyone with a college degree will fast track through life. Unfortunately that's not the case anymore, as we all know.

And the degree DOES matter as an entry level worker. The other thing is the resume. A lot of employers get so many resumes and applications that they just toss them out one by one until one catches their eye. Don't ask me what stands out, because I don't know.
 

WanderingFool

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Kahunaburger said:
Yeah, I definitely think there's an issue with the intersection of humanities/student loans/shitty economy. Part of the problem is that some of these (philosophy and English) are to an extent feeder degrees for law programs ppl suddenly can't afford. Another part of the problem is that higher education is orders of magnitude more expensive over here than it is in many countries with comparable systems.
Thats my problem. I have a History degree because I had plans of going onwards to grad school, but my financial situation is not helping that come to be. Im stuck working part time jobs and im not even sure if I can swing night school.

I didnt go to college to get a "useless" degree in History, I did it because it was part of my plan. Unfortunately, that plan had me cross a bride that, as of right now, is just not there...
 

Zyst

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Tenmar said:
Zyst said:
Look part of the main problem is that right now in the USA simply put the people and therefore our own governments be it on a local, state and federal level actually don't want to actually invest in schools which means no funding for the actual advanced curriculum students were meant to receive. Instead what you got was the creation of bullshit which is also known as "college prep" and "AP" or "honors" classes. With very few of the actual classes meaning what they stand for.

On the other side whittling education down is parents. Simply put think of any actual career and chances are it will involve computer science or network engineering, autoshop, wood working, painting, and cooking all which were known as elective courses. With the complaints by women for "women's rights" important classes like home economics faded away, cause of the overparanoia of parents and idiotic kids not understanding safety or failure of the teacher classes like workshop disintegrated. Without any funding and the constant social outcast that came with loving computers chances are your school uses a mac from the 1990's which means no actual computer science classes be it by choice or desire due to social pressures. Also chances are the best program schools could afford or teach is MICROSOFT WORD. Pretty much take anything that would actually help the foundation level of this country by teaching the next generation to cook, manage their finances, build or repair their cars, and develop programs does not exist.

And don't get me started with the lack of parenting at home simply put with both parents having to work just to get by most parents aren't going to actually teach their kids or keep them interested in education.

So the result? Well go to your local 4 year college and have a look. All these degrees that honestly just screw people over cause they never actually got the education they needed to actually produce a career. Most wouldn't know how to write a paragraph or know a javascript if it bit em in the ass because your education is completely luck of the draw and how well funded the schools were. My brother tells me stories of other computer science majors that don't understand what they are doing at all yet a simple game of tic tac toe gets them to pass while my brother developers frogger. If you don't have the foundation set then there is no chance to actually apply that foundation when you get to college.

That is why college in the US is turning into a waste of time and it's been happening for about twenty years now. I grew up going to school and everytime there was a curriculum to teach me to cook, or to repair a car either parent's complained as it was "sexist" or funding was cut where they couldn't teach the class anymore. So all those buildings just got turned into more "band rooms" leaving with hundreds of students with NOTHING TO DO.

EDIT: I should say that there is another part to this equation that is missing from the OP. Another reason why you don't have a lot of people actually getting that experience is that it is also the fault of the work sector to not actually teach people skills as well. Yes bare minimum requirements are expected but in all of my jobs not once was there a skill I couldn't do before which once you leave a job leaves you with nothing to gain. But the other side of this as well is that jobs are being more specialized to the point where you to be something as simple as a customer service rep you learn how to be a customer service rep multiple times due to corporate policy and the like.

Not to mention the old phrase "use it or lose it" applies greatly. There are a lot of people who do actually take those useless degrees and actually do know some great stuff. However the actual careers to actually utilize said knowledge is quite small so if you aren't lucky to get a job that say involves history like working for NARA or working at a museum then you will lose the knowledge as there is no job advancement to learn and even if you do learn without the experience of working at a museum there is no way a hiring manager is going to actually consider you as a candidate.

Simply put this country a good deal of the time just eats itself alive which is why most of the time you see a lot of people trying to make careers out of the things they did when they were younger. That's why you see a lot of youtube channels like The Game Station because there aren't enough jobs that will actually pay.
I dunno man, in our first semester of Computer Science we had to program a tetris and a 256 bit codifier. I think your bro university might not be that good.
 

Zyst

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Mage of Doom said:
Zyst said:
Alright, first of all I want to lead with saying: I Like the US, love it really. My family is all from the US, I live in Mexico and have lived here most of my life but I've got this question that keeps bugging at me that few people seem to even question.

Why do people study bullshit careers and then get surprised when no one will hire? I'm flabbergasted at how often I see this in media. People will whine that they studied college and they can't get a decent job, but seriously, MANY people go into things like 'English' and 'Philosophy', while I think they are great careers what do you expect to be hired as? A philosopher? A writer? Seriously. People here study engineering, medicine, law, science all straight out of highschool, no one who studies philosophy or languages seriously expects to work in their branch, and almost no one does.

I studied 1 year of physics and math, and now I'm in computer science and I work at a consulting firm as a programmer. Most of the undergraduate students in my career who have even a shred of talent at what they do are already working and getting paid well. But I don't understand why people deliberately choose something that will be useless (or damn near) and then are surprised when only McDonalds will take them.

I understand my question and statement might be riddled with ignorance, and I apologize if that's the case. But most of my acquaintances don't say 'oh fuck no one will hire me, a electronics engineer' the only people who I see doing something similar are the ones who studied stuff like English, Philosophy and so on and so forth.

If I do get an intelligent answer that completely schools me, fuck me I'm fine with that, that's what I want to be honest. But the US amount of Engineers and people in science has actually dropped compared to the 1980's and those people usually find jobs fast.

Now, if it's a thing about vocation and writing is your greatest passion in life, hell, go for it! But most people just go into college to avoid working for a while longer, which confuses me greatly.

Again, sorry for my ignorance, but I would like an answer.

Thank you for any comments!
There's a difference between 'riddled with ignorance' and 'being an asshole'.

Some people, and I know this might shock you, want to do things they enjoy for a living, no matter how hard it is to get their foot in the door. I just switched from a Bio to English major, as a matter of fact, and there are plenty of jobs in the writing industry.

Enjoy your cubicle for the next 50 years.
I work remotely, from 9 to 5pm, so 8 hours a day, 3 of which are just messing around checking forums and playing games between work. What kind of place has cubicles nowadays anyway?
 

ace_blazer

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the doom cannon said:
When looking for engineering jobs, I found the best place to look was at well known college's career fair sites. Just go check out any major university's career fair website and browse the list, then go to each company's website that has something resembling your course of study and submit an application. Also, engineering jobs are hard to find if you limit yourself geographically.
Large companies that participate in career fairs have more than enough job applications. You're a tiny speck of dust in a stack of resumes. University career fairs are a start, but "apparently" the best chance is the so-called hidden job market and small companies >100 employees. Of course it's all about getting yourself out there.

Unfortunately as a new grad, companies will give you less consideration if you are not in their local area. There is no point in reaching out of their pool of local talent especially when everyone is fresh out of college. Recruiters and HR love it when they can stamp out a resume that easily. When it comes to new grads applying outside of the country it's all about contacts contacts contacts.

People talk about the lack of "life skills" being taught in school. I feel that with the uncertain future we're facing, there is a large lack of focus on "job hunting" skills. More specifically the ability to sell yourself and your abilities. It has become a necessary survival skill.
 

zerragonoss

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First knowledge for its own sake and all that stuff. secondly philosophy gets a bad rap as far as a hire-able degree but its actually one of the better liberal arts, and close to the best for transferring to grad school with the third highest acceptance to medical school for example.
 

Mr. GameBrain

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University in the UK.

Over here, its getting more useless.

Problem is, unless you get a really good degree with a high grade, (and some work experience), it will be mostly useless.

My crappy Management Degree so far, hasn't helped me at all, and I go to a pretty good Uni (hertfordshire).

The irony is, ^ that is one of the good ones! XD

Employers crave work experience, demonstration of skills, and I personally don't think Universities adequately provide the right facilities for that.

I wish I could go back to my past self and tell him not to bother with it...

The difference between me now, and me back then, is that the current me has thousands owed to student finance, and an even more unstable mental state, (because freaking out all the time is fun!).

(I haven't even graduated yet. Can't even get the placement required for the course. My grades aren't great so I'm filtered out everywhere I ever apply to. No connections, no special skills, (well, slightly better than average computer skills I guess...), only had one job for 4 years ("customer assistant") = no hope. :( )

If anything, the increased student fees now are a good thing, because its putting people off going, (and people are less pressured into going to uni. Oh yeah society, thanks for spreading the idea that university is what people need. >:/ ).

EDIT: Do you know who is the most successful person I know at the moment?

My best friend.

He dropped out of uni.
He got a job at his old man's firm. Buying and selling computer parts.
He loves it. Going from physics to PCs.
Doing a great job. He still lives at home though, gets a lot of support from his family, but he does get paid much more than he needs. (Frivilous spending FTW! XD)

^ That is annoying. Connections. Great aren't they? ;p

EDIT 2: Maybe I should just scrap this whole thing. Take what I've learnt and go.
I always had the temptation to just scrap Uni, learn some programming languages, and get serious with Game Design.
(I mean, I LOVE Video Games. More than what is probably reasonable, and I love coming up with ideas for them. I know the industry well. So it just makes sense to go this route. Go indie, the market is really good at the moment. Even a modess success or even no success would be good for me, I'll still be working at the checkouts, earning a little cash, I live at home. Maybe I should just go for it! XD)

EDIT 3: Heck, you know things are bad, when even LEARNING to drive is too expensive in the UK.
Not many people my age could even afford a car. The car is cheap, but the cost of fuel is high, the tax is over £100, but the big killer is the insurance.

Its mandatory, and costs up to 3x the value of the car sometimes. Quite frankly, its ridiculous. It costs me £8.50 to get to uni by bus a day. Sure it takes 2 hours to get there, and 2 hours to get back, but considering it would cost me over £100 a week in accomodation, and probably as much by car (factoring in all the extra costs of a car), I think I got the best deal there.

At least my parents get some of the diggs money, which comes back to me in some form or another.
 

the doom cannon

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Yep everything is theoretical now in schools. They are just now starting to get more practical. Although I have to disagree about the local thing. My friend got a paid internship (30,000 salary for the 9 months), and it was because he was from out of the area. He's not a stellar student, but one of his friends told him to apply and he got the position. Being out of the area can actually help your application stand out from the rest. It could also just as easily get you in the thrown out pile. But if there's a possibility you should take it. That's the other thing. Internships aren't just for students. I know plenty of people who have gotten internships after they graduate, and that's how they get their 2 years experience.
 

xDarc

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Well I think everyone in this thread missed the point by a mile.

The real problem is that hardly anyone starts their own business anymore. Everyone just expects to be handed a degree and a job and it's pathetic. Even with a degree, you're still gonna be somebody's *****.

I was in first grade when Ronald Reagan was still president and even back then they were brainwashing us with that education shit. 7 years old and your whole future was being planned out for you. Not me, I said fuck that. I completed a general associates... at 28, never committing to anything.

Do you know what I did? I worked since I was 14. I have had jobs in just about every entry level industry out there. I started learning a little bit about everything. It got to the point that if I wasn't overlooked for an interview for lack of a bachelor's degree- I beat out college graduates because I sounded like someone who works for a living and knows his shit.

The guy that does the same job I do has a master's degree in computer science. He was applying for this position with .NET development and he had to ask me what it was. He had to go digging through his old homework files to find an example project he did on it in college, but had no idea what it was. I can do the same shit in an afternoon of reading. What good was his education if he hardly learned anything?

Now I do get skipped over by HR managers a lot with, sorry, you are not qualified- but the further I go in my career, the less it is happening. I'm 30 now and I'm just shy of 40,000 a year. I'm moving up and up with every job I take, building off the last experience. I just need a shot to get my foot in the door.

But where is it all going? I'm living small, I'm saving my money, I bought my first house- small and affordable, buying a second house ten years down the line, renting second house, having collateral for small business loan, opening my own business.

Oh sure, they say 90% of businesses fail in the first year. That's because 90% of people who open businesses are stupid. Here are two recent examples of failing businesses in my community.

1. Self-described "cafe" that does not sell coffee. Just hooka and foreign sodas. Place was empty except for owner and friend. Turned around and walked out in disgust.

2. Saw a smoke shop that opened 6 months ago hauling out their displays and loading them onto a truck. Guess what went out of business before they opened up shop there in that same location? ANOTHER FUCKING SMOKE SHOP.

Small business owners have got to be some of the biggest idiots in the country, but plenty of them are doing just fine- and if you have a little bit of common sense and lot's of patience to do reading on business and finance, you can put 90% of them to shame.

Anyway, I can't wait til the whole education bubble collapses. People think it's just fine and dandy that the price of tuition is going up and up because anyone with a pulse can get a loan for college. This is not unlike ANYONE getting a loan for a home which kept astronomically increasing in value.

But guess what happened? The prices went so high, and the debts got so big, and the income was not there, that people defaulted, bankrupted, wiped out. The same thing is gonna happen with college students... more and more of them every year.

In summary, yes education can be a waste of time, but the first mistake was investing money so, if you were lucky, you could work for someone else and be at their mercy. Don't get educated to get a job, get educated to be a boss. That is the single biggest reason why the whole system is fucked up.
 

SciMal

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Zyst said:
If I do get an intelligent answer that completely schools me, fuck me I'm fine with that, that's what I want to be honest. But the US amount of Engineers and people in science has actually dropped compared to the 1980's and those people usually find jobs fast.
Unfortunately it varies pretty widely, even in the Sciences. Engineering? You're pretty much golden. Physics? Well, that's pretty much Engineering, or leads to it real fast.

Biology and Chemistry? Unless you make some lucky contacts and get hired by a well-funded lab to continue your education, it's difficult. I just graduated with a B.S. in Bio, Minors in Chem and English with an Emphasis on Organismal Form and Function.

I applied to a part-time, entry-level bench job that pays $9.90 an hour that I could probably do in my sleep since it revolves almost entirely around PCR and acrylamide gels - but I haven't heard back yet. Doubting I will at this point, as it's been almost a week and the job posting is almost a month old.

Yeah, I'm applying to Med School as well, but Med School isn't a guarantee. It's almost a lottery who gets accepted.

I wouldn't say the education system sucks, per se (though the for-profit colleges certainly do, and I think 18yr old kids don't know enough to make a good decision regarding any loans), the job market just sucks for almost everybody. Everyone is trying to delay entering the actual field they're studying in. It's almost a career to take out grants and loans to stay in college and pursue another Major in the hopes the economy turns up.

I doubt it will. The USA just doesn't have its eyes set on funding innovation or utilizing its educated population. There's too much anti-intellectualism, there's too much focus on deeply polarizing issues like taxes, and there's less and less funding towards everything else.
 

tautologico

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One of the issues is that Science and Math are taught in tragically bad ways in school, so most people end up thinking they're too hard. I won't say STEM degrees are easy, but they are certainly attainable by most people (Gaussian distribution of intelligence levels and so on). The way things are taught in school AND at the college/university level creates problems though. Professors in STEM usually think that their job is not to teach students, but to weed out "good" students from "bad" ones. This is a pervasive cultural problem in my experience.

In my country people mostly study Law because it's a degree seen as a way to get into high-paying public sector jobs with stability (they can't be fired). It's very attractive for individuals, even though it burdens the government. Being a developing country that is not, at least right now, suffering much recession, we have a shortage of engineers everywhere. A good engineer/IT professional will hardly stay unemployed for long here.
 

themyrmidon

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Agree with OP 100%. Even as an Industrial Engineering student I've been around enough offices and production plants to know that they try to teach technical professions more than we need since so much is learned on the job. Liberal Arts degrees without a specific end goal are an absolute waste of money.

Looking back I wish I knew more about how business worked in high school, then I probably would have skipped college and either self-taught or started my own business.
 

Sexy Devil

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ace_blazer said:
Zyst said:
But the US amount of Engineers and people in science has actually dropped compared to the 1980's and those people usually find jobs fast.
I'm an Electrical Engineering new grad, specialized in integrated circuits and microwave engineering, with a side of power engineering. I've been looking for a job for a year. My friends who graduated with me have been looking for a year. Electrical, mechanical, civil, the jobs aren't there.

"Blah blah blah, smartphones, the oil industry, the mining industry, AIRPLANES ARE BOOMING BUY AEROPLANES!" Bollocks. The economy is crap. People are getting laid off. Old people don't want to retire. Companies want experienced people, but don't want to train them. 95% of job postings ask for at least 3-5 years experience. How the hell are you supposed to get experience if no one will hire new grads? And no, co-ops don't count. No the best solution for me right now is to either work in a lower level job (thereby invalidating my chance to get an engineering job with every passing year) or hide from the horrid job market and go for a Masters (bye bye money!!!). Hell the degree doesn't matter, it's who you are as a person, and most of all who you know.

It's an employers market out there, so just because you have a good degree doesn't mean you'll automatically get a job. I'm seeing a large majority of engineers going into law or business school instead of getting a job out of university.

So here's a little advice. Don't get a degree because you think it'll guarantee you a job. It will not. Even in good times people will find they have a costly, worthless degree, and still can't find a job. An unfortunate myth perpetuated in this country.

You should choose a career, and then a degree, not because it guarantees you a job, but because it inspires in you passion, enthusiasm, and energy.
If you're willing to leave the US you can probably find a job here in Australia. I've been doing my degree for a semester and already got a guaranteed job once I'm done. Even people who aren't straight A students have been getting the offers. The mining industry in WA is pretty goddam enormous, they're always looking for newbies.
 

Unsilenced

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I'm majoring in mechanical engineering in one of the best universities in the country for expected graduate employment/income (for that field,) so I think I'm pretty good in that regard. (University of the Pacific)

Liberal arts degrees though... yeah. Fine and all if you have money and just want to, like, broaden your world view. Not great for making money. At all.
 

violinist1129

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Kahunaburger said:
Yeah, I definitely think there's an issue with the intersection of humanities/student loans/shitty economy. Part of the problem is that some of these (philosophy and English) are to an extent feeder degrees for law programs ppl suddenly can't afford. Another part of the problem is that higher education is orders of magnitude more expensive over here than it is in many countries with comparable systems.
I don't think that similar education costs substantively more in the US than it does abroad. It costs a third of the price for me to attend Princeton as it would to go to Cambridge (two very comparable schools).

Once you factor in costs of living, I'd say the US has the best institutions for the price (also some of the worst, but those are easily identifiable).

I do think more people should be pursuing two-year degrees and more practical ones at that, but many people do very well with a Philosophy or English degree.
 

lunavixen

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Its not just the US, it's anywhere with universities, I have a specialised field, but nothing impossible to get work in (I did a Bachelor of Criminology).

But yes, I agree, people who take up such theoretical and non applicable fields such as philosophy or Arts (there is nothing wrong with an Arts degree if you have both a major and a minor in similar areas, as Arts degrees have a large field to specialise in.) are wasting their time.

Most education systems are flawed, a lot of people in my year 12 group could not even spell properly or read from a book without hesitating, and yet English in high school here they don't teach those who can't read and spell properly how to do it, and so people go into university before they are ready.