college/university good, or bad?

[Legend of J]

**snip** (sorry, quotes are getting a bit too long)
Actually mate my current job is Manager of media related productors OR Assistant manager of the entire company so i think by this time next year ill be earnin x3 the amount i am now or x4 and the boss wouldent be firing me otherwise the entire company would fall to pieces the reason he picked me over someone with a degree is. They don't have the EXPERIANCE. So while alot of them have waisted 2-4 years at uni i have walked straight into a managment job.

The reason i know the company wount go bust is if the city council goes bust and them going bust wount happen anytime soon.

I think my point was supposed to be that there is a cap to the kind of things you can do without a degree. You can earn more than a decent living without a degree. But the only way to earn a ridiculous amount (from salary alone, not counting any investments) is through having a degree and working one of those jobs where you rip off people (like being a lawyer or a psychologist).
The real advantage of not getting a degree (as far as money is concerned) is never because you have more experience. When you first apply for the job, you have just as much experience as the next guy--which is zero. By the time I finish uni, I would have already done 2 to 3 internships, and possibly have a few "management competition/projects" under my belt. That usually counts for something as well. The real advantage of not going to uni is that you start out with no debt, and you can put the money you earn early to good use.
But like I said before, it's not all in the money. If you like the place you work at and the things you do, then no amount of money can replace that.

Funny enough with the work experiance is alot of people i know who have went to uni employers havent touched them because they lack work experiance where as alot of my friends who don't have any plans on going to college or uni have awesome jobs which they enjoy (they get crap pay but if you enjoy your job thats half the battle).

But i do agree that gettin a degree in certain subjects is worth it bud stuff like media OH NO!. I know 7 people who have got media degrees and are all unemployed because no studio wants them without the experiance. My plan is work as the assistant manager and hopefully enter something like the escapist film festival.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I love you. Seriously. The same exact thing happened to me.

As far as I can tell, college is a business. If you just listen to the propaganda, you'll end up suckered into a bad deal that isn't a good return on your investment. Trade schools really ought to get more attention; the stigma attached to them is hindering industry.

If you go for college, it better be for a tech degree.

LOL

And, yeah, college is a business, try to get as many kids in the seats and keep them there as long as you can, which is why half the time is spent on gen ed and electives. There was only 2 classes outside of my core classes I was glad I took. I must've took pre-calculus 3 or 4 times in my life. I'm good at math so I took any math class I could find below calculus as an elective because I knew it would be easy and there's no goddamn papers to write.

Most jobs you really don't require a college education to do. You really just probably need 6 months or so of training to become proficient at. I think companies, at least the big ones, should open up their own trade/training schools so they can train their future workers properly and make money while doing it.

 

[Dys]

Im not going to university and i didnt plan to, ive always wanted to be an engineer on military aircraft and thankfully i managed to get an apprenticeship with a manfucturer of military aircraft so i had no need to go university. im a fairly intelligent person but university never appealled to me.

heres what i think, nowadays EVERYONE is given the oppertunity to go to uni with scholorships and even people who get C and D grades can get a degree in astrophysics etc. Now that everyone has the chance to get a degree it devalues it. think about it this way, you get a degree to give yourself a better chance of getting a good job but if everyone applies for a job with a degree then you have go no more of a chance than anyone else (obviously negating degrees in medicine and law, they are still important). also it affects the economy in other ways, if the majority of people have a degree then who is going to be builders and cleaners so we end up getting in immigrants (not that immigration is a bad thing) to do these jobs. it also effects people without degrees, as alot of jobs now require a degree that a few years ago wouldnt have required one.

im not trying to put-off anyone going to uni nor am i saying that its easier (just more accessible) BUT i think that there needs to be more options to still get a good job without a degree, i was lucky but alot of people wont be as lucky as me. they may still be intelligent people capable of holding a good job but just dont get the opertunity

what is your opinion do you think everyone should go to uni/college OR do you think there needs to be more options for intelligent people to get a good job without going down this route

How can you possibly be an engineer without a degree or equivalent experience? Engineering is a skilled profession, and as much as I think uni is a waste of my time there's virtually no other way. Engineers Australia mandate the minimum qualifications for an engineer in the country, and I can't imagine it being hugely different in any other country :S....I'm hugely jealous if I have to spend the best part of 6 years proving I'm capable of engineering if you don't

My opinion, however, is that university (or college) is a wank. It's quite literally forced on young adults so that we don't have to go out into the workforce, where there are not enough jobs to support us. By governments heavily encouraging this tertiary education they can (and do) claim the unemployment rate is far lower than it really is (as students do not count as unemployed). It bothers me no end, especially as tertiary study is heavily subsidized in Australia, I'm going to spend the best part of my life forking out cash so that students can get bullshit arts degrees, that they don't really want or need, because incompetent governments refuse to properly invest taxpayer money into building the economy, and as such the local economy cannot handle all the young adults that would be constantly entering the workforce.

My opinion, then, by and large is that school is a waste of time. Yes, it can be fun, but after a point it loses value and is no longer constructive. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be available to those who want to do it, but it's insane to expect everyone to have a degree or diploma before entering the workforce. There's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving school in year 9 to get an apprenticeship (in fact, I sincerely regret not having that option when I was younger, I'd be far better for it now).

 

[SimuLord]

According to the Wall Street Journal, September 21, 2010:

Unemployment rate, US, non-college-grads: 16.2%.
Unemployment rate, US, college grads with at least a 4-year degree: 5.4%.

Any questions?

 

[shootthebandit]

Im not going to university and i didnt plan to, ive always wanted to be an engineer on military aircraft and thankfully i managed to get an apprenticeship with a manfucturer of military aircraft so i had no need to go university. im a fairly intelligent person but university never appealled to me.

heres what i think, nowadays EVERYONE is given the oppertunity to go to uni with scholorships and even people who get C and D grades can get a degree in astrophysics etc. Now that everyone has the chance to get a degree it devalues it. think about it this way, you get a degree to give yourself a better chance of getting a good job but if everyone applies for a job with a degree then you have go no more of a chance than anyone else (obviously negating degrees in medicine and law, they are still important). also it affects the economy in other ways, if the majority of people have a degree then who is going to be builders and cleaners so we end up getting in immigrants (not that immigration is a bad thing) to do these jobs. it also effects people without degrees, as alot of jobs now require a degree that a few years ago wouldnt have required one.

im not trying to put-off anyone going to uni nor am i saying that its easier (just more accessible) BUT i think that there needs to be more options to still get a good job without a degree, i was lucky but alot of people wont be as lucky as me. they may still be intelligent people capable of holding a good job but just dont get the opertunity

what is your opinion do you think everyone should go to uni/college OR do you think there needs to be more options for intelligent people to get a good job without going down this route

How can you possibly be an engineer without a degree or equivalent experience? Engineering is a skilled profession, and as much as I think uni is a waste of my time there's virtually no other way. Engineers Australia mandate the minimum qualifications for an engineer in the country, and I can't imagine it being hugely different in any other country :S....I'm hugely jealous if I have to spend the best part of 6 years proving I'm capable of engineering if you don't

My opinion, however, is that university (or college) is a wank. It's quite literally forced on young adults so that we don't have to go out into the workforce, where there are not enough jobs to support us. By governments heavily encouraging this tertiary education they can (and do) claim the unemployment rate is far lower than it really is (as students do not count as unemployed). It bothers me no end, especially as tertiary study is heavily subsidized in Australia, I'm going to spend the best part of my life forking out cash so that students can get bullshit arts degrees, that they don't really want or need, because incompetent governments refuse to properly invest taxpayer money into building the economy, and as such the local economy cannot handle all the young adults that would be constantly entering the workforce.

My opinion, then, by and large is that school is a waste of time. Yes, it can be fun, but after a point it loses value and is no longer constructive. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be available to those who want to do it, but it's insane to expect everyone to have a degree or diploma before entering the workforce. There's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving school in year 9 to get an apprenticeship (in fact, I sincerely regret not having that option when I was younger, I'd be far better for it now).

i agree with your sentiment, my dad went through the same process as i will. he is an engineer in the oil industry, he started at the same age as me and learned in the workplace now he earns alot of money and was even involved in helping with the BP disaster. he says that the company he works for doesnt do apprenticeships be he thinks they should because when interviewing they get guys with 6 year degree who know how to do everything (on paper) but when it comes down to understanding how something works theres no substitute to have spent your younger years climbing through the system replacing the nuts and bolts. no offense to you but he says more often than not they have wasted 6 years because they seem good in an interview but end up being incompetent

 

[shootthebandit]

According to the Wall Street Journal, September 21, 2010:

Unemployment rate, US, non-college-grads: 16.2%.
Unemployment rate, US, college grads with at least a 4-year degree: 5.4%.

Any questions?

you cant argue with those figures that seems reasonable to me

if you think about it, say you have 100 people who didnt go to uni (college) then you can pretty much garuntee that 16 of them are wasters who dont want to work and would happily a) live of their wealthly parents or b) follow their parents by living off state welfare

 

[StBishop]

Well engineering as a whole is dying, so I'm sure the industry wants interested parties any which way they can get them.

Also all universities have been negatively affected by the public school layout which really undermines the point of higher education. Save for select studies, if you're in college taking a multiple choice test the school is poorly spending your tuition.

Source please?

I'm sorry but I feel that I need to call you out on this, as I'm sick to death of people claiming that object a, business b or profession c is dying or obsolete as if it's a generally accepted fact.

OT: I think that anyone should be able to attend university. I do think that actually obtaining a degree should be harder. I've been at University for almost a year now but I've only done 2 exams that aren't multiple choice only. Both of those exams, included multiple choice questions as more than 50% of the content.

I understand that multiple choice responces are easier to mark, but really, most of the answers are so obvious that you can figure them out using a simple process of elimination if you don't actually know the subject matter.

It just strikes me that I'm finding University easlier than I found Highschool.

It could be that I want to succeed, I'm rarely drunk any more, I actually study and am interested in all of my subjects.
I don't think that these things would take me from 2 passes and 4 fails in highschool to an average of Distinctions.

 

[SimuLord]

According to the Wall Street Journal, September 21, 2010:

Unemployment rate, US, non-college-grads: 16.2%.
Unemployment rate, US, college grads with at least a 4-year degree: 5.4%.

Any questions?

you cant argue with those figures that seems reasonable to me

if you think about it, say you have 100 people who didnt go to uni (college) then you can pretty much garuntee that 16 of them are wasters who dont want to work and would happily a) live of their wealthly parents or b) follow their parents by living off state welfare

That's not even counting the wasters. That means of every 100 people who didn't go to college, 16 of them are ACTIVELY LOOKING for a job and can't get one. Contrast five college grads from a similar sample size.

 

[StBishop]

I think college for the most part is bullshit and a waste of time. I went and got a Bachelor's but I spent more time taking classes take weren't a part of my major, all the electives and gen ed stuff. And, I don't think I've ever learned anything important by writing a paper in any class. I took so many college classes where I learned the same things I learned in high school like physics, english, pre-calculus, etc. The biggest problem with American education is that you re-learn so many things it's ridiculous. If you could just learn something once and move on, that would be great.

There's so many things you don't need to learn that you are forced to learn. Outside of learning to read and grammar, English class is really not required. I don't care about analyzing books and poems and I never will, and I'll never need it at my job. You don't need geometry, I'm never in my life going to have to prove that 2 triangles are congruent in real life.

If you could just take classes and learn what you want after high school, that would be great. Basically, go to a trade school to learn how to do a job instead of going to college and wasting you time on gen ed and electives.

Alternatively, do a double degree. Two degrees, no electives.

LOL

And, yeah, college is a business, try to get as many kids in the seats and keep them there as long as you can, which is why half the time is spent on gen ed and electives. There was only 2 classes outside of my core classes I was glad I took. I must've took pre-calculus 3 or 4 times in my life. I'm good at math so I took any math class I could find below calculus as an elective because I knew it would be easy and there's no goddamn papers to write.

Most jobs you really don't require a college education to do. You really just probably need 6 months or so of training to become proficient at. I think companies, at least the big ones, should open up their own trade/training schools so they can train their future workers properly and make money while doing it.

So, you perposly picked easy subjects, then complained that you're re-learning things from highschool in classes that are intended for the people who didn't do those subjects in highschool.

"Hey, I can do math, I'll pick a math class so that I don't need to learn anything... OH NO I DIDN'T LEARN ANYTHING AT UNIVERSITY!!! FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-"
That's what I'm reading.

 

[freedomweasel]

And, yeah, college is a business, try to get as many kids in the seats and keep them there as long as you can, which is why half the time is spent on gen ed and electives. There was only 2 classes outside of my core classes I was glad I took. I must've took pre-calculus 3 or 4 times in my life. I'm good at math so I took any math class I could find below calculus as an elective because I knew it would be easy and there's no goddamn papers to write.

Most jobs you really don't require a college education to do. You really just probably need 6 months or so of training to become proficient at. I think companies, at least the big ones, should open up their own trade/training schools so they can train their future workers properly and make money while doing it.

Did the 'business' force you to take pre-cal? Or did they offer higher level options to people who are, as you say, good at math? Part of higher education is learning to take initiative. It's your own fault if you had the option to challenge yourself and learn and you didn't take it. You have no valid reason to complain if this is the case.

 

[Axolotl]

even people who get C and D grades can get a degree in astrophysics etc.

Why is this a bad thing? Should someone not be allowed to learn about astrophysics because of a mediocre academic talent?

whats the point in going to school then, you may aswell just go straight to uni if they are requiring Cs and Ds

I guess it depends on how you look at it. You see I have this crazy idea that the purpose of school is to learn things rather than the attainment of arbitrary qualifications.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Did the 'business' force you to take pre-cal? Or did they offer higher level options to people who are, as you say, good at math? Part of higher education is learning to take initiative. It's your own fault if you had the option to challenge yourself and learn and you didn't take it. You have no valid reason to complain if this is the case.

I was forced to take pre-calc twice, once in high school and once in college. So, I chose to take it at least one more time. It's not like I was interested in taking the other gen ed electives anyways. Why would I want to challenge myself in areas that I don't care about? Once you are out of high school, you should be able to go on and learn what you want. If you want to go on and learn computers or medicine or whatever, you should be able to do that and not waste have your TIME and MONEY on classes you don't need or care about, and that don't pertain to your major. Why do I have to retake classes in college that I took in high school? I took the same pre-calc, physics, economics, english, history, computer basics, and probably a few others in college that I took in high school. Why do I have to re-learn stuff and waste time? And, I took an A+ certification class (a certification for working on computers) at a community college then I HAD to take the same class at the college I graduated at when I was already fucking A+ certified, it's bullshit.

 

[shootthebandit]

According to the Wall Street Journal, September 21, 2010:

Unemployment rate, US, non-college-grads: 16.2%.
Unemployment rate, US, college grads with at least a 4-year degree: 5.4%.

Any questions?

you cant argue with those figures that seems reasonable to me

if you think about it, say you have 100 people who didnt go to uni (college) then you can pretty much garuntee that 16 of them are wasters who dont want to work and would happily a) live of their wealthly parents or b) follow their parents by living off state welfare

That's not even counting the wasters. That means of every 100 people who didn't go to college, 16 of them are ACTIVELY LOOKING for a job and can't get one. Contrast five college grads from a similar sample size.

thats quite shocking actually, im sure we must have similar figures in the UK (if not higher) but to claim welfare in the UK you must be actively looking for employment but its easy for people to fake that they are looking for work. At the moment im looking for something part-time until i start my apprenticeship and there is close to zero jobs available now that im 18 they have to pay me more so alot of people are hiring 16-17 year olds for temp work

 

[Mr.Mattress]

I want to go to college for my Political Career, but if my animation career starts to soar, then I am gonna be like "Fudge College!"

 

[Dys]

Im not going to university and i didnt plan to, ive always wanted to be an engineer on military aircraft and thankfully i managed to get an apprenticeship with a manfucturer of military aircraft so i had no need to go university. im a fairly intelligent person but university never appealled to me.

heres what i think, nowadays EVERYONE is given the oppertunity to go to uni with scholorships and even people who get C and D grades can get a degree in astrophysics etc. Now that everyone has the chance to get a degree it devalues it. think about it this way, you get a degree to give yourself a better chance of getting a good job but if everyone applies for a job with a degree then you have go no more of a chance than anyone else (obviously negating degrees in medicine and law, they are still important). also it affects the economy in other ways, if the majority of people have a degree then who is going to be builders and cleaners so we end up getting in immigrants (not that immigration is a bad thing) to do these jobs. it also effects people without degrees, as alot of jobs now require a degree that a few years ago wouldnt have required one.

im not trying to put-off anyone going to uni nor am i saying that its easier (just more accessible) BUT i think that there needs to be more options to still get a good job without a degree, i was lucky but alot of people wont be as lucky as me. they may still be intelligent people capable of holding a good job but just dont get the opertunity

what is your opinion do you think everyone should go to uni/college OR do you think there needs to be more options for intelligent people to get a good job without going down this route

How can you possibly be an engineer without a degree or equivalent experience? Engineering is a skilled profession, and as much as I think uni is a waste of my time there's virtually no other way. Engineers Australia mandate the minimum qualifications for an engineer in the country, and I can't imagine it being hugely different in any other country :S....I'm hugely jealous if I have to spend the best part of 6 years proving I'm capable of engineering if you don't

My opinion, however, is that university (or college) is a wank. It's quite literally forced on young adults so that we don't have to go out into the workforce, where there are not enough jobs to support us. By governments heavily encouraging this tertiary education they can (and do) claim the unemployment rate is far lower than it really is (as students do not count as unemployed). It bothers me no end, especially as tertiary study is heavily subsidized in Australia, I'm going to spend the best part of my life forking out cash so that students can get bullshit arts degrees, that they don't really want or need, because incompetent governments refuse to properly invest taxpayer money into building the economy, and as such the local economy cannot handle all the young adults that would be constantly entering the workforce.

My opinion, then, by and large is that school is a waste of time. Yes, it can be fun, but after a point it loses value and is no longer constructive. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be available to those who want to do it, but it's insane to expect everyone to have a degree or diploma before entering the workforce. There's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving school in year 9 to get an apprenticeship (in fact, I sincerely regret not having that option when I was younger, I'd be far better for it now).

i agree with your sentiment, my dad went through the same process as i will. he is an engineer in the oil industry, he started at the same age as me and learned in the workplace now he earns alot of money and was even involved in helping with the BP disaster. he says that the company he works for doesnt do apprenticeships be he thinks they should because when interviewing they get guys with 6 year degree who know how to do everything (on paper) but when it comes down to understanding how something works theres no substitute to have spent your younger years climbing through the system replacing the nuts and bolts. no offense to you but he says more often than not they have wasted 6 years because they seem good in an interview but end up being incompetent

It's absolutely the case, in fact, it's near impossible to get a real engineering job without previous engineering experience, but in Australia there's basically a requirement that you have a degree (linked in my above post). I have no love of study, but I'm forced to invest the time (and money) on a degree before I can properly get a job as an engineer (and it's up to me to supplement the theory I learn at uni with practical experience, which isn't exactly easy).

 

[olicon]

**snip** (sorry, quotes are getting a bit too long)
Actually mate my current job is Manager of media related productors OR Assistant manager of the entire company so i think by this time next year ill be earnin x3 the amount i am now or x4 and the boss wouldent be firing me otherwise the entire company would fall to pieces the reason he picked me over someone with a degree is. They don't have the EXPERIANCE. So while alot of them have waisted 2-4 years at uni i have walked straight into a managment job.

The reason i know the company wount go bust is if the city council goes bust and them going bust wount happen anytime soon.

I think my point was supposed to be that there is a cap to the kind of things you can do without a degree. You can earn more than a decent living without a degree. But the only way to earn a ridiculous amount (from salary alone, not counting any investments) is through having a degree and working one of those jobs where you rip off people (like being a lawyer or a psychologist).
The real advantage of not getting a degree (as far as money is concerned) is never because you have more experience. When you first apply for the job, you have just as much experience as the next guy--which is zero. By the time I finish uni, I would have already done 2 to 3 internships, and possibly have a few "management competition/projects" under my belt. That usually counts for something as well. The real advantage of not going to uni is that you start out with no debt, and you can put the money you earn early to good use.
But like I said before, it's not all in the money. If you like the place you work at and the things you do, then no amount of money can replace that.

Funny enough with the work experiance is alot of people i know who have went to uni employers havent touched them because they lack work experiance where as alot of my friends who don't have any plans on going to college or uni have awesome jobs which they enjoy (they get crap pay but if you enjoy your job thats half the battle).

But i do agree that gettin a degree in certain subjects is worth it bud stuff like media OH NO!. I know 7 people who have got media degrees and are all unemployed because no studio wants them without the experiance. My plan is work as the assistant manager and hopefully enter something like the escapist film festival.

It depends a lot on the line of job too. Most of my friends go into graduate program, or start by doing researches/theses for the company, which then becomes a full contract. Technical work generally works by recruitment like that. If you try to study economics or marketing, then it's a lot tougher to find work.
The key with jobs like that too, is to get experience while you're in uni. That's why everyone smart would get internship while they're uni--they will graduate with a year's worth of experience too.

It's absolutely the case, in fact, it's near impossible to get a real engineering job without previous engineering experience, but in Australia there's basically a requirement that you have a degree (linked in my above post). I have no love of study, but I'm forced to invest the time (and money) on a degree before I can properly get a job as an engineer (and it's up to me to supplement the theory I learn at uni with practical experience, which isn't exactly easy).

I feel your pain, man. I'm going through the same thing. It's even harder for internationals, since most Aus companies don't take international students for internships.

 

[smithy_2045]

University has been the best time of my life so far personally.

 

[StBishop]

Well engineering as a whole is dying, so I'm sure the industry wants interested parties any which way they can get them.

Also all universities have been negatively affected by the public school layout which really undermines the point of higher education. Save for select studies, if you're in college taking a multiple choice test the school is poorly spending your tuition.

Source please?

I'm sorry but I feel that I need to call you out on this, as I'm sick to death of people claiming that object a, business b or profession c is dying or obsolete as if it's a generally accepted fact.

OT: I think that anyone should be able to attend university. I do think that actually obtaining a degree should be harder. I've been at University for almost a year now but I've only done 2 exams that aren't multiple choice only. Both of those exams, included multiple choice questions as more than 50% of the content.

I understand that multiple choice responces are easier to mark, but really, most of the answers are so obvious that you can figure them out using a simple process of elimination if you don't actually know the subject matter.

It just strikes me that I'm finding University easlier than I found Highschool.

It could be that I want to succeed, I'm rarely drunk any more, I actually study and am interested in all of my subjects.
I don't think that these things would take me from 2 passes and 4 fails in highschool to an average of Distinctions.

They've not taught you spell check in college?

My source is pretty easy. Look at the 1979 business exchanges and compare it to 1985's, 1993's, and 2005's it's an obvious decline in proliferation of engineering projects, companies, and graduates entering that career sector. I might add in the west. It's the opposite for Asia. In particular India and China, but it's not been a boom for them. The over all level of money and man power in that industry had declined. There's plenty of info on each of these sectors so that you can take a look at it as a whole, and even cite it MLA or some such. And I'm glad that your university is much larger and brightly colored so that you could find it easlier than your high school.

Firstly, no I didn't spell check before posting. I did it just then however and as it turns out, there was one mistake, it was grammatical.

...succeed, I'm rarely drunk any more, and I actually...

The correction Microsoft word suggested in bold.

Considering that Yanks use the English language differently to every other country in the world though, it makes sence that you percieved spelling mistakes.

Thanks for the source, I'll check it out.

Also, rather than ending my post with a thinly veiled attack on your intelligence I'll point out that I didn't have a go at you in my first post, I only had a whinge about people stating things as if they're general knowledge when they don't seem to be.