Communism
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Take Star Trek for example (yes, it's fictional).
The advent of "replicator" technology has solved all material needs for humanity, who - from that point onwards - live in a de facto Communistic society. All that you urgently need is provided. There doesn't seem to be money.
Nothing against people sharing there money, property, land or whatever. Long as they do it on their own. Me, I work for myself and my family. If I get enough money I do help out people as I can, but no way a government instituted program can tell me where to put my money, well more than they already do.
If you want communism, then go out and do it, just build a community where people live and share wealth. Fact is that not everybody wants to, or can. Why should we take their hard earned money and give it to someone else by force?
It will always need enforcement, either to keep everyone working or to distribute the money and food.
If you want communism, then go out and do it, just build a community where people live and share wealth. Fact is that not everybody wants to, or can. Why should we take their hard earned money and give it to someone else by force?
It will always need enforcement, either to keep everyone working or to distribute the money and food.
The problem with Communism is if everyone is in the same "class," i.e. same general income, then there is no need to work for a more complicated job. If a McDonalds cashier earns as much money as a surgeon, who would want to be a surgeon? Not very many people. The good thing about having a higher class and a lower class is because there is always the incentive to work harder in order to earn more money. If Communism is what I think it is, then there is no need to take post-secondary education in order to have a high-paying career because - well - there are no high-paying careers.
The idea is decent enough, it just wouldn't work because a grand majority of humans don't want to put in more work for no increase in money. Competition is a good thing, for example, if two sandwich shops are competing for a consumer base, they'll obviously make better tasting, healthier sandwiches at a lower cost. Everybody wins! (geez, now I'm hungry again.)
The idea is decent enough, it just wouldn't work because a grand majority of humans don't want to put in more work for no increase in money. Competition is a good thing, for example, if two sandwich shops are competing for a consumer base, they'll obviously make better tasting, healthier sandwiches at a lower cost. Everybody wins! (geez, now I'm hungry again.)
Communism is not the final stage of human social evolution, given that it is a thesis contradicted by a antithesis that is called reality, which does not allow for communism to work. Therefore, you must either revert to the Hegelian end of the dialectic or have another synthesis.
Besides, the pure lack of incentive is not conducive to a developing a productive society. He even says that the lack of incentive is negligible in the communist manifesto and the bourgeoisie would have long ago died off from their lack of incentive to do the productive labor that fell to the proletariat. Marx recognized the ability of capitalism to mobilize resources and thought that capitalism would run its course to provide all the goods needed for the people once the communism system is instituted.
You can clearly see this in Poland when they published newspapers saying "They lied to us when they told us that they paid us, we lied to them when we told them we were working."
Besides, the pure lack of incentive is not conducive to a developing a productive society. He even says that the lack of incentive is negligible in the communist manifesto and the bourgeoisie would have long ago died off from their lack of incentive to do the productive labor that fell to the proletariat. Marx recognized the ability of capitalism to mobilize resources and thought that capitalism would run its course to provide all the goods needed for the people once the communism system is instituted.
You can clearly see this in Poland when they published newspapers saying "They lied to us when they told us that they paid us, we lied to them when we told them we were working."
Yeah, human evolution in a fantasy world. In practice, unlimited democracy is the worst kind of tyranny and leads to terrible oppression. There is no "class" more strict than the one that has a vested interest in keeping your vote and no limitations on what it can do as long as it can outnumber any and all opposition.Dys said:
You're entitled to dream of utopia, but you should remember that your "dream" directly resulted in the deaths of over 100 million people in this century alone. But, hey, as long as it's other people's blood, why should you care about the cost?
Yeah, well, I am an idealist to, however I am a capitalist Anarchist. People are stupid, they are brainwashed to think that our 'democracy' is the best thing in the world, when it is one of the most corrupt offices on the planet. I just don't deal with people that don't know what they're talking about. China's version of communism, however is a dictatorship I believe.. not 100% sure.. But anyway, communism is not a bad thing in theory but leaders may use it against the public for their own riches.
I think if someone were to distill the bad and good parts of communism and use only the good parts and create a new form of government (Goodunism?) it would be awsome. But saddly, this will never work. In a world with only good the really good will sone be considered good and the less good will be considered bad.
But that's all most people know about communism. They've only seen people going mad with power and killing off the ones who don't agree so their ideas are ultimately the last word. For communism to work, we need an uncorruptable source. Time to call in the Batman. //Turns on bat signal//fullmetalangel said:
I agree 100% that it's not evil its just the people running it. Also with computers there is the possibility of someone hacking it to make their was correct. thats why you need an uncorruptable source to run it. Throughout history we have learned everyone has their price. to quote a movie "when facing a loaded gun, what's the difference"fullmetalangel said:
Communism and Capitalism are two sides of an economic river, we are on the capitalist side with no boat, and any raft we throw together sinks into the socialist sandbar. Communism IS NOT A GOVERNMENT, NEITHER RUSSIA NOR CHINA NOR ANY OTHER COUNTRY HAS TRULY BEEN COMMUNISTIC. It's different than capitalism and both work, but there is no transition between the two as of yet
Yeah, this is why the people that go off on drug-filled hippie communes regularly return to civilization riddled with STD's and malnutrition, or why the Puritans, who attempted to set up a commune system when they first arrived in the New World, nearly starved until they desperately reassigned land to individual families.Datalord said:
No system where an individual gets no return for their work CAN work. It's a sheer fantasy with nothing whatsoever to recommend it, just like deciding you can fly and jumping off a skyscraper.
Pfft filthy commie lies! The United Federation of Planets is obviously utopian fascists! With the All Seeing Starfleet Command ruling with an Iron FIST!!!rossatdi said:
*Coughs*
Ahem. Actually you are incorrect about Lenin he knew it couldn't leap frog from Agrarianism to Communism hence why he created what he dubbed a State Capitalist Government. He believed it was possible to artificially accelerate the process in a very authoritarian manner hence Soviet Socialism. This reached its crescendo during Stalin but eventually the progress slowed and people just got angry while the party elite became corrupt thus leading to people like Brezhnev and Gorbachev coming to power.
No,actually, most intelligent people understand the differences that you are trying to make-
Communism....an ideal for a form of perfected government....NOT EVIL.
What is done to "create" or "influence" people's belief in the Communist system? IS
And don't pull this reversal "well, it is better than what's done in America", snot. There are reasons why almost everyone "over there" is trying to "get here".
Communism....an ideal for a form of perfected government....NOT EVIL.
What is done to "create" or "influence" people's belief in the Communist system? IS
And don't pull this reversal "well, it is better than what's done in America", snot. There are reasons why almost everyone "over there" is trying to "get here".
I have started a communist society... I am incharge of nothing... because I am the only one who exists in it... no one else wants to join =(.
I would like to have some people join this society, even if you own nothing, especially if you own nothing, we can give you no jobs because we own nothing. I say we but I mean I but it would be we if there was a you.
Who will join me and take part in a election? (This society doesn't have any specifications for joining. Or running for Steward(spell check)(The President of our communist society the addresser of the people and honesty is paramount even if it would be better to lie))
This time it will work... because we own nothing... every man can own a company because every man will be part of the government. (Using weapons is bad). And evey man is asked to join in with anything anyone asks them to do (and get paid for the job).
It's a hobby I have. Not a power mad scheme like most communists leaders have. And no money is needed because we are not running a government (which is where most communist societies fail), this means you will still have to pay taxes, but will also mean the goverment will have no power to cause trouble... or get one man rich.
This has no potencial benefits now but may in the future, or maybe it wont. But it will work.
The Steward is elected every year and anyone can call an election throughout the year.
If anyone wants to join please post a reply.
I would like to have some people join this society, even if you own nothing, especially if you own nothing, we can give you no jobs because we own nothing. I say we but I mean I but it would be we if there was a you.
Who will join me and take part in a election? (This society doesn't have any specifications for joining. Or running for Steward(spell check)(The President of our communist society the addresser of the people and honesty is paramount even if it would be better to lie))
This time it will work... because we own nothing... every man can own a company because every man will be part of the government. (Using weapons is bad). And evey man is asked to join in with anything anyone asks them to do (and get paid for the job).
It's a hobby I have. Not a power mad scheme like most communists leaders have. And no money is needed because we are not running a government (which is where most communist societies fail), this means you will still have to pay taxes, but will also mean the goverment will have no power to cause trouble... or get one man rich.
This has no potencial benefits now but may in the future, or maybe it wont. But it will work.
The Steward is elected every year and anyone can call an election throughout the year.
If anyone wants to join please post a reply.
Ingnorant fool, everyone earns the same money who works in the same job, and artisans are given money dependant for how good they are.Enigmers said:
Well now. I cant believe I am writing this on a forum which ostensibly deals with video games but here goes.
To begin with, lets begin with the man himself, Karl Marx. Its important to keep a few things in mind, firstly Marx never said that Capitalism was inherently evil, just that it was a necessary economic development, a major step forward from the previous socio-economic system which is Feudalism, but in which due course must make way for an ever more progressive system. The choice between living in a Feudal society on one hand and a Capitalist system on the other is I think quite obvious.
Secondly, Marx critiques the Capitalist system, and explicitly maintains that at the end of the day the only way to change matters is by people, aware of their social conditions, decide to act in a concerted effort to change the system to a better one..i.e Socialism and then Communism. In this he saw the Proletarian (Working) classes as the only group that was best able and determined to change it. For him the final analysis is economic, but one that is ultimately dependent on Human Volition.
Thirdly, Human progress for mark is an iterative process. ALL steps must be taken. One cannot take a feudal society and convert it into a Communist society simply because for Communism to exist a FULLY developed Capitalist society must first come into being. You cannot have one without the other. This unfortunately is the case in almost every ostensibly "communist" country.
The Soviet Union was built on feudalism not Capitalism. It was a primarily peasant society which effectively practiced serfdom. This is not fertile ground for Communism, for a multitude of reasons which would take too long to explain here, see above. Lenin actually was struggling to bring a proletarian class into being by trying to create a hybrid CAPITALIST / Socialist economy. He even admitted later that this was not what he wanted.
Apart from the Soviet Union, almost every non-European country which is considered communist is either colonial, feudal or malformed in its institutions at the time of its revolution. For Communism to come into existence, it would need a highly industrialized and stratified society for revolution to take place. Mainland Europe managed to offset the tendency by the Welfare state, combined with massive infrastructure and public works projects that allowing it to become far more egalitarian than the US. The UK followed this model to a degree, but like the US began dismantling its welfare state with the Thatcher / Reagan years.
In the US the combination of Keynesian policies by FDR, the post-war boom and a concerted effort by the government to root out Communist cells through a combination of sophisticated propaganda, surveillance and persecution ensured that any form of socialism was cut out at its root. Once the Soviet Union began its inevitable decline, the US then began to substantially cut back on its welfare policies, culminating in the Chicago school of economics and Milton Friedman. Which incidentally has sparked the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, and turning the US into the largest Debtor on the planet.
To summarize: Communism cannot exist without a Capitalist system to come into being, it cannot come into exist without a concerted effort by the multitude.
Communism is aimed at the development of the Universal Human. A being who is poet, artist, philosopher, scientist, statesman, and worker; to the extent of his innate abilities and inclinations. IT IS NOT THE SOCIETY OF EQUALS. Atleast not in the sense that all people are equally gifted or equally inclined to cultivate their latent talents. Communism is a society where no sphere of human endeavor is denied to an individual for him or her to cultivate to the best of his or her abilities. It is a society where every opportunity to cultivate ones abilities are provided, without hindrance from social or economic difficulties.
To put it crudely; Communism doesn't care without you say an object belongs to you, just that the means on that object's production is collectively owned by all, with everyone having access to it. The concept of "ownership" would become meaningless, for while I may lay claim to an artifact solely for sentimental reasons, I wouldn't claim that I in a legal sense own that object, nor would anyone ELSE try and take the object from me. Why would they? Since they have the same level of access to productive forces as I do, they can say, just as well make one of their own. Theft can only exist in a society where the access to the means of production and the associated resources is uneven. The only other possible reason would be clinical insanity.
Finally COMMUNISM IS NOT THE SOCIETY OF JOY. Communism doesn't say everyone has an god given right to happiness, merely its unhindered pursuit. The perils of the Human Condition from sadness, to shame would still be with us. What would perhaps not be there is *shrug* fear I guess. Fear of lacking the basic necessities, fear of one's fellow human beings, fear of being thwarted in ones pursuits. Communism is not concerned with joy, its concerned with Justice.
As for Capitalism. Well to put it simply: It doesn't exist. There is no such thing. What people call Capitalism today is as far removed from the vision of Adam Smith as Communism is removed from Karl Marx. For Capitalism to exist, one of the key tenants is COMPLETELY free movement of Capital and Labour with absolutely NO INTERVENTION by Governments acting DOMESTICALLY OR INTERNATIONALLY. Closed Borders, Tariffs, Cartels, Trade Barriers, Economic Nationalism, Military actions against other actors to control resources - all of which has ALWAYS been practiced by the Standard bearer of Free trade - the USA.
The current recession (depression?) is a case in point. The Government had to bail out the banks by tax payer money and initiated a war against another nation for the de facto strategic control of its oil and location. The coming Bailouts for the car makers coupled with what will most certainly be cuts in public works is about Capitalist as the Soviet Union or China is Communist.
I am to get into a shouting match about where the USA is heading, I prefer not to speculate. All I can say is that the track record of De jour Capitalism as it is known is no better than de jour Communism.
The ideology you choose to support then comes down to a simple philosophical and ethical question: Is man noble?
To begin with, lets begin with the man himself, Karl Marx. Its important to keep a few things in mind, firstly Marx never said that Capitalism was inherently evil, just that it was a necessary economic development, a major step forward from the previous socio-economic system which is Feudalism, but in which due course must make way for an ever more progressive system. The choice between living in a Feudal society on one hand and a Capitalist system on the other is I think quite obvious.
Secondly, Marx critiques the Capitalist system, and explicitly maintains that at the end of the day the only way to change matters is by people, aware of their social conditions, decide to act in a concerted effort to change the system to a better one..i.e Socialism and then Communism. In this he saw the Proletarian (Working) classes as the only group that was best able and determined to change it. For him the final analysis is economic, but one that is ultimately dependent on Human Volition.
Thirdly, Human progress for mark is an iterative process. ALL steps must be taken. One cannot take a feudal society and convert it into a Communist society simply because for Communism to exist a FULLY developed Capitalist society must first come into being. You cannot have one without the other. This unfortunately is the case in almost every ostensibly "communist" country.
The Soviet Union was built on feudalism not Capitalism. It was a primarily peasant society which effectively practiced serfdom. This is not fertile ground for Communism, for a multitude of reasons which would take too long to explain here, see above. Lenin actually was struggling to bring a proletarian class into being by trying to create a hybrid CAPITALIST / Socialist economy. He even admitted later that this was not what he wanted.
Apart from the Soviet Union, almost every non-European country which is considered communist is either colonial, feudal or malformed in its institutions at the time of its revolution. For Communism to come into existence, it would need a highly industrialized and stratified society for revolution to take place. Mainland Europe managed to offset the tendency by the Welfare state, combined with massive infrastructure and public works projects that allowing it to become far more egalitarian than the US. The UK followed this model to a degree, but like the US began dismantling its welfare state with the Thatcher / Reagan years.
In the US the combination of Keynesian policies by FDR, the post-war boom and a concerted effort by the government to root out Communist cells through a combination of sophisticated propaganda, surveillance and persecution ensured that any form of socialism was cut out at its root. Once the Soviet Union began its inevitable decline, the US then began to substantially cut back on its welfare policies, culminating in the Chicago school of economics and Milton Friedman. Which incidentally has sparked the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, and turning the US into the largest Debtor on the planet.
To summarize: Communism cannot exist without a Capitalist system to come into being, it cannot come into exist without a concerted effort by the multitude.
Communism is aimed at the development of the Universal Human. A being who is poet, artist, philosopher, scientist, statesman, and worker; to the extent of his innate abilities and inclinations. IT IS NOT THE SOCIETY OF EQUALS. Atleast not in the sense that all people are equally gifted or equally inclined to cultivate their latent talents. Communism is a society where no sphere of human endeavor is denied to an individual for him or her to cultivate to the best of his or her abilities. It is a society where every opportunity to cultivate ones abilities are provided, without hindrance from social or economic difficulties.
To put it crudely; Communism doesn't care without you say an object belongs to you, just that the means on that object's production is collectively owned by all, with everyone having access to it. The concept of "ownership" would become meaningless, for while I may lay claim to an artifact solely for sentimental reasons, I wouldn't claim that I in a legal sense own that object, nor would anyone ELSE try and take the object from me. Why would they? Since they have the same level of access to productive forces as I do, they can say, just as well make one of their own. Theft can only exist in a society where the access to the means of production and the associated resources is uneven. The only other possible reason would be clinical insanity.
Finally COMMUNISM IS NOT THE SOCIETY OF JOY. Communism doesn't say everyone has an god given right to happiness, merely its unhindered pursuit. The perils of the Human Condition from sadness, to shame would still be with us. What would perhaps not be there is *shrug* fear I guess. Fear of lacking the basic necessities, fear of one's fellow human beings, fear of being thwarted in ones pursuits. Communism is not concerned with joy, its concerned with Justice.
As for Capitalism. Well to put it simply: It doesn't exist. There is no such thing. What people call Capitalism today is as far removed from the vision of Adam Smith as Communism is removed from Karl Marx. For Capitalism to exist, one of the key tenants is COMPLETELY free movement of Capital and Labour with absolutely NO INTERVENTION by Governments acting DOMESTICALLY OR INTERNATIONALLY. Closed Borders, Tariffs, Cartels, Trade Barriers, Economic Nationalism, Military actions against other actors to control resources - all of which has ALWAYS been practiced by the Standard bearer of Free trade - the USA.
The current recession (depression?) is a case in point. The Government had to bail out the banks by tax payer money and initiated a war against another nation for the de facto strategic control of its oil and location. The coming Bailouts for the car makers coupled with what will most certainly be cuts in public works is about Capitalist as the Soviet Union or China is Communist.
I am to get into a shouting match about where the USA is heading, I prefer not to speculate. All I can say is that the track record of De jour Capitalism as it is known is no better than de jour Communism.
The ideology you choose to support then comes down to a simple philosophical and ethical question: Is man noble?