Confederate Flags in Northern States

[Dragon Zero]

This:

Spoiler

Is the flag of the Confederacy.

THIS:

Spoiler

Is what ignorant people cling to when they try to disguise their racism as "Southern roots" or "Southern heritage."

For those in the southern states: do you see more of the former than the latter? Living in a northern state, I've never seen the former.

No I see the latter more often. Though, while my state did secede, it contributed to both sides and really didn't see much fighting, but we did get the final battle (which the Confederates won, btw, long stupid story) and we actually did pretty well after the war. Then again Texas is more of a South Western state than pure South, though we get labeled South whenever other people wish to insult us.

Anyway, back to the topic. While the variation of the St Andrews cross was very popular in the CSA, it only made it into two of the countries three national flags. The first national flag (which the nice person posted above) was very similar to that of the Union. In fact to a troubling degree, since many times the flag was not fully extended and it lead to some unfortunate issues of friendly fire and troops ending up in the wrong place. The second and third flags (seen below) incorporated a small one on the side but also came with a few issues, like the second one being confused with a flag of surrender.

So where did the flag as we know it come from? it was the battle standard of the most successful Confederate force the venerable Army of Northern Virginia, the one commanded by such fellows as Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard, Joseph Eggleston Johnston, and most famously Robert Edward Lee. This is probably where people came up with that as the flag of the nation, since it was seen in the more famous battles like First Bull Run (First Manassas), Antietam (Sharpsburg), and Gettysburg, so it probably was used to invoke that arm of the Rebel war effort. Ironic since many of the commanders were more moderate in their views, fighting for their side simply because otherwise they'd be invading their own homes and less out of a love of the system of slavery (Lee himself did not like the practice to begin with) and many of them advocated peace after the war.

As for my own views, as an American Civil War nerd, I see both side of the argument. On the one hand it is kind of inspiring that the CSA lasted so long and did so much with so little and animosity towards the North isn't completely unjustified especially with the sorry state the south was left in after the war, though I won't go into too much detail. On the other hand actions performed by others supposedly in the name of Southern pride after the war are unforgivable at times and while those men performing such acts do not represent the majority, they do speak loud enough to leave an impression. Overall, I feel it is left up to individuals to decide for themselves.

Spoiler

Second Confederate National Flag

Third Confederate National Flag

 

[rutger5000]

I don't know how to quote very well. I'll leave my reply italic.

Doesn't matter. I haven't received American education, so all I know about the American Civil war is from movies and Wikipedia. I do trust Wikipedia to be the stuff that's inside the history books though, and like it or not that is accepted as the truth. The confederate flag was the flag of the slave states. With that it's the flag of the racists states, and with that it's the American equivalent of the Nazi flag. Whether it's justified or not, that's the way it is.

Again - the history books are written by the victors, and much truth is lost to memory. You make it sound as if you're not from the US, but yet you're basing your association of a symbol on that of what the majority want to view it as. That, plain and simple, is ignorance.


no it's not ignorance it's common sense. The flag is a symbol and symbols have meaning and that meaning is decided by an overwhelming majority. As example: If I'd be curious about how you're feeling, I wouldn't ask: "Are you gay?". Even though it originally meant: Are you cheerful. The meaning of the word gay changed based on (and I quote) that of what the majority want to view it as. That, plain and simple, is common sense. And it works just the same for symbols.


. . . and how in the hell can you claim the slave states were racist states? Really?! You do realize many territories as far west as the now Californian border were slave territories, correct? Simply because a state or territory practised slavery does not make the state as a whole racist. There were many slaves that were not of african descent - hell, even some of my own ancestors (of baltic blood) were slaves for this nation.


Really man slavery not racist? Really is that what you're saying. Using force to make people do you bidding based on a supposed superiority of your race above theirs sounds pretty racist to me, and so does a state that fights to defend such a practice. And I think most people would agree

If you walked around a confederate flag I would address you about it, if you walked around with one in a black church or something I would hit you.

I would welcome such an display of your ignorance. Making such statements is assinine - it's easy for one to speak big when sitting behind their own computer screen. I have to assume based on your earlier statements that you're not american, either . . . and I can't hold any respect for someone not of American heritage to make such a claim as to what actions they'd take.


Here I admit I was out of line

Also the whole American civil war is almost 150 years ago, anybody who was conscious by then is dead now. That makes it about time to trust the history books, or at the very least respect the people who do. Thus if the history books make it something racist and offensive it is racist and offensive

Wow . . .

I mean, holy shit . . .

This statement just leaves me dumb-founded.

So, you mean to say that even if the history books are biased, that we should simply ignore that and take what someone else dictates to us as dogma? Really? If you think you know so much about American history as you claim to do (based on your usage of wikipedia), they'd you'd also know that American's aren't exactly ones to sit there and let others decide for us.



Somewhat yes that's what I'm saying. The history books are the most creditable source available to most people now. I'm not saying that you're not entitled to believe something else, just that you have to respect that it's not what most people will believe.


Again, THE HISTORY BOOKS ARE NOT WHAT MAKE THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE A SYMBOL OF RACISM AND HATE!!! it is THE PEOPLE WHO'VE ASSOCIATED RACISM AND HATE WITH A SYMBOL.