Confused Briton seeks clarification from right -wing Americans

[joystickjunki3]

The hypocrisy of close-mindedness that runs rampant through these threads continues to shock me. Fuckin' greater internet fuckwad theory.

I sincerely doubt that the people in these forums who start threads to criticize others' beliefs [w/o so much as trying to possibly understand or sympathize w/ opposing sides] actually understand that they're doing the same thing that they are complaining about.

OT: I don't like socialized healthcare, but I' more than open to discussion on the matter (I'm a conservative, but that doesn't mean I'm completely opposed to all ideas outside of what may be considered my belief spectrum... most conservatives are reasonable people, it's the fanatics who voice themselves the loudest... on both sides). I think it has the possibility of becoming uncontrollable in the future, and I understand that the NHS may have the option to decline service so that individuals can pay for private care, but do the individuals that opt not have public care also avoid the higher taxes that are included in the public healthcare plan? I don't want higher taxes just because someone else wants the government to pay for medical bills.

I don't want higher taxes at all.

 

[Treblaine]

As an Englishman, it can be sometimes hard to wrap my head around the psyche of many Americans particularly the type who spends their days arguing on the internets about freedom and patriotism, also known as conservatives.

Now, in recent days there has been much talk of Obama introducing state healthcare, in a similar vein to that of the NHS (Britain's health service), now I can understand why some conservative might disagree with that seeing as it's (in their words) "socialism", but I do not understand the attacks on Britain's health service, calling it "evil" and "Orwellian". I just don't understand why.

True, the NHS isn't the best health service in the world, but if you do not want it, the option exists to to pay shitloads of money for private care. Surely such a system could work just fine in America, the rich/conservative just won't use it and the poor/people who don't want to pay for a service that does it's job just fine.

To me it just seems like an attempt to criticize Obama even more, by calling him socialist, after all (as someone on this very forum said), it's easier to make the other guy look like Hitler, than to make yourself look like Jesus.

So my question to you conservatives out there is.

Why do you not want a free health service when the option for private care will still exist?

The problem is more complex than that as in fact there is already a large public healthcare system like Medicare for the elderly and Medicaid. Many people enjoy the status quo and it has yielded some stellar results. I think many people (rightly or wrongly) think the US government is aiming more for a cost cutting measures.

Medical insurance premiums have sky-rocketed in the US but not entirely due to inefficiency as on the state and federal level laws have been passed forcing insurance company's to at least in part foot the bill for those without insurance. This is especially the case with emergency treatment as it is illegal for a hospital to turn away or not treat a patient who lacks insurance or who cannot pay.

In an article of The Times (2009-08-14, pg 24, "Why Americans Fear The Accountant's Knife" by David Frum) I read that America already spends as much per patient as Canada does (that's both state, provincial and federal level) and many Americans are happy with government funding they do receive and worry this is all a massive cost cutting exercise, especially from how much Obama talks about the cost of Private healthcare rather than the quality of his new public healthcare.

So the issue is so much more complex with Medicare, Medicaid and the complex relationship of hospitals' dependence on federal funding and passing on cost of uninsured to the insured.

And it is not like right wing America is opposed to Healthcare reform or care for the poor, the regular rightist baddie George W Bush brought through federal cost covering for the elderly prescription drugs and another guaranteeing federal funding for insurance for children.

I'd put it to you if America has the impression that the NHS and similar public health care systems are "Orwellian" then most Brits seem to see US healthcare as "Darwinian" only as in more Survival of the Richest when it is quite clear that neither of them are quite true.

I appreciate the NHS, I see it as a valuable safety net yet I am not deluded that it is a perfect system and is not necessarily suited to export. BTW, I have had surgery done but on private because the NHS did not want to take the extra cost of putting me to sleep for the operation since it "wasn't necessary". Not quite "Orwellian" but hardly much to be proud of.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

An argument I hear a lot is that they don't want non-medical people (such as the government) controlling their healthcare.

Under the current system, healthcare professionals don't control healthcare money. Insurance companies do.

Also, the US government already controls Education, Transportation, Fire Protection, Communications (to a point), etc... If those went private, you wouldn't be as happy as you think you are with private healthcare.

Another argument is that they don't want to pay for other people's healthcare, or pay for healthcare that they won't use. Under the current system, unless your insurance company pays more on your claims than you've paid in, you are paying for other people's healthcare already, those that pay in less than they are paid out (those that are using it as insurance is purpported). You're also helping to fill some very deep pockets. Those with conditions that cause them to be paid out more than they pay in, are soon kicked for those conditions, or end up paying way more.

Health insurance isn't like a bank account where you pay in every month and they go, "oh! your balance is X, so we'll just use funds from that to pay your medical bills." No, but they offer services like that, with "small" transaction or annual fees and you can only spend it on medical costs.

Here's how health insurance works; you pay your medical premiums, maybe a couple hundred a month if you're lucky and your policy is "worth" anything (if you don't, your employer does). If you don't see a doctor, you don't get that money back. If you do see a doctor, you still pay a deductible (from $5.00 to $100.00) before the insurance picks up the rest. If you have a serious (read: costly) incident or condition, the insurance company can (and usually does) refuse to pay for it, and still keep your money, and actually start charging you more. That is, until they decide that you're too "high risk" and dump you outright, and no one else will pick you up.

Why lobbyists and politicians don't like it, Health Insurance companies make money. Not just some money, a shit-ton of money. Why? Because they're really banks. You pay in your premium, they invest it, and harvest the interest and other gains, then pay medical bills with the relatively menial leftovers, but make sure they only pay as much as they have to. Many lobbyists and politicians are big stakeholders in "healthcare" companies, or their parents, partners, or subsidiaries.

As for the "evil" and "socialism" tags it's called "American Journalism", which is a fancy term for sensationalism without research (actually, that's part of the definition of sensationalism, isnt' it?), it happens on both sides, mind you. I'm sure no one here remembers the "Se"Xbox incident? Things are made up on both sides to feed to their followers, because "it's evil" and "that's socialism, Nazi's are socialsts" are better arguments than "our friends, and we, want to keep making money". Both sides do it all the time. "We don't agree with Bush's XYZ policies because of XYZ reasons that make us look bad or cause us to lose money" is less compelling than "He looks like a monkey!" "Like father like son!" "Look! He's a religious Zealot on a Crusade! Just like the Taliban's Jihad!". It's all the same crap coming from a million different assholes.

 

[jasoncyrus]

To be hoenst Obama is doing the right thing by bringing in such a service as ur NHS.

a'll give you an example, two inf act, from my wn life.

Currently I am dead, flat assed broke not a penny to my name, its all invested in my business setup.

I also have a very bad case of piles which will no doubt require surgery.

Thanks to the NHS i can get that surgery for free, i just have to find out when (havn't had the consult yet).

If the nhs didnt exist I'd be stuck with this incredibly painful condition for the rest of my life, or at least for a good few years to come.

Second example is when my two big toenails got double ingrown while in college, i could BARELY walk because of it, but thanks to the nhs, got them out 2 weeks later for no cost.

 

[hypermuseic]

There are plenty of reasons not to like obamas plan specifically, but the conclusion i have reached is that its either his reform or more pussy-footing for a few years. People dont like the current situation (apart from glen beck) and whether or not its perfect right now i believe its the only thing with enough momentum to push through.

 

[PirateKing]

I don't know if you'll find a lot of right-wing americans on this site. After 9/11 the thought of another terrorist attack became the biggest political motivator in the country. So we dumped most of our money into defense. We could take about half of that money and cover every uninsured person in the country. I mean, our money wall would still cover most of eastern seaboard to protect us from ICBM's.

It's hard to understand their mindset. I don't get it either. It's like in Men in Black when K says, "A person can be smart, but people are idiots." Or something like that.

 

[mrhockey220]

First off just because I dont agree with democrats doesnt mean Im a watcher of "Fox News" and just because Im republican doesnt mean Im fucking evil. I also believe that Fox News is pretty radical at times. I mean Jesus Crist democrats all the time preach about accepting people and shit and yet people just assume what we have to say is lies and that we hate minorities. There are a few reasons why a lot of right wingers are against this, one reason is beacuse their policy is that the least government involved in a persons life the better which makes sense. Another reason is because when u have socialized healthcare sometimes you might not get the best healthcare possible and u would have to wait a long time to get it like in Canada. For example, one of my cousins in Canada wanted to fly to where I lived in California to get cancer treatment because it would take forever to get it up there. Another reason would be our country's economic status. The cost of taxes would skyrocket and since we are already trying to find our way out of a depression, why deepen it? My final reason would be that republicans are just scared of how Obama is increasing the governnment's role in more aspects of our daily lives which conflicts with the republican policy. Its a legitimate argument if you look at a historical stand point because in our revolution in the 1700's we fought the monarcy in Great Britain because we were opressed by their government that controlled everything the colonists did. Now we are starting to see that type of government which we fought against to gain our independence slowly come back again as Obama starts increasing the role of government in our lives. You'd think the constitution would take effect by now. I could go on but Im off topic. Sorry for the wall of text!

 

[mrhockey220]

I didnt care, Then they pulled the NHS into the arguement.

How dare they! Stupid conservative nut-jobs, On WE are allowed to slag off our health service!

Get your own, THEN slag it off!

Because some people are too shallow-minded to see the truth. It happens with just about everybody... well, here at least.

Its a power grab, and Orwellian is just a descriptive of how they are presenting itself. Doing a little research you will easily find that the president is back and forth on exactly what is in the bill (of which there are several different versions, not just one) and honestly if you take a historical, or definitive standpoint it is socialism.

Problem is, "socialism" has been so overused in the last 20 years, both correctly and incorrectly, that it has now become empty rhetoric. Nazi, likewise, but the terms are in essence the same, because Nazi stands for National Socialist. Just look at what socialist governments did in 1915-30 Russia and 1930-36 Germany and make the comparison of what the president is saying.

Also, "free" is not as free as you would expect. I don't want my neighbor paying for my health care because I don't want to pay for his. A tax increase is mandatory to be able to pay for it, so it's not "free." There is also going to be rationing within the bill, as it stands in each version, which is due to the fact that they cannot simply afford it for everyone, and the poor will lose out there still.

Also, I want MY CHOICES not the government choosing what health care I will be able to get. Within each version of the bill there are stipulations saying that all major decisions will be made by a government bureaucrat, which takes time that could, and will cause unnecessary mortality and morbidity, due to the lack of immediate on site decision making. I would rather have a doctor, not a politician, make recommendations and keep myself in charge, rather than have a corrupt power hungry politician in charge of my health.

Maybe I'm too much on the "self responsibility" thing because I'm not some mentally deficient, pathetic simpleton who requires the government to hold my hand for every little thing in the world.

Fair point, Fairly rational at least. Y'see the thing is, i know an increase in tax is on the cards, But think of the number of lives it could save? With taxpayer money going into healthcare shouldn't that also bring up the standard of healthcare on the bottom line?

No because the government will get to decide what to do with the money so really they dont have to put too much of it into healthcare if they dont want to. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

 

[Insanum]

. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

But thats the thing, They WOULD get it. How many people would get that healthcare without a Health system?

 

[Skutch]

First off just because I dont agree with democrats doesnt mean Im a watcher of "Fox News" and just because Im republican doesnt mean Im fucking evil. I also believe that Fox News is pretty radical at times. I mean Jesus Crist democrats all the time preach about accepting people and shit and yet people just assume what we have to say is lies and that we hate minorities. There are a few reasons why a lot of right wingers are against this, one reason is beacuse their policy is that the least government involved in a persons life the better which makes sense. Another reason is because when u have socialized healthcare sometimes you might not get the best healthcare possible and u would have to wait a long time to get it like in Canada. For example, one of my cousins in Canada wanted to fly to where I lived in California to get cancer treatment because it would take forever to get it up there. Another reason would be our country's economic status. The cost of taxes would skyrocket and since we are already trying to find our way out of a depression, why deepen it? My final reason would be that republicans are just scared of how Obama is increasing the governnment's role in more aspects of our daily lives which conflicts with the republican policy. Its a legitimate argument if you look at a historical stand point because in our revolution in the 1800's we fought the monarcy in Great Britain because we were opressed by their government that controlled everything the colonists did. Now we are starting to see that type of government which we fought against to gain our independence slowly come back again as Obama starts increasing the role of government in our lives. You'd think the constitution would take effect by now. I could go on but Im off topic. Sorry for the wall of text!

Speaking as someone that has many, many deeply conservative, Republican friends, I can assure you that not all of us Liberals think you are evil people. Conservatives come in all kinds of different flavors. And so do liberals.
That being said though, is your Canadian cousin rich or something? Treatment for cancer is one of the most expensive services you can get in the US. My grandfather underwent treatments and after all was said and done it cost $80,000. He had insurance, but it had a cap on services so everything after that had to come out of his pocket.
Also, you've got some funny and historically inaccurate views about the founding of the United States. And you should probably read the Constitution sometime, there's nothing in there about small government.
I hate to bring this up, but why is it most Republicans want to keep government out of our health care system and away from our guns, but they want government to decide who gets to marry whom, and whether a woman should be able to get an abortion or not? Isn't it kind of self-serving for someone to insist on government intervention only when it aligns with their particular beliefs?

 

[mrhockey220]

First off just because I dont agree with democrats doesnt mean Im a watcher of "Fox News" and just because Im republican doesnt mean Im fucking evil. I also believe that Fox News is pretty radical at times. I mean Jesus Crist democrats all the time preach about accepting people and shit and yet people just assume what we have to say is lies and that we hate minorities. There are a few reasons why a lot of right wingers are against this, one reason is beacuse their policy is that the least government involved in a persons life the better which makes sense. Another reason is because when u have socialized healthcare sometimes you might not get the best healthcare possible and u would have to wait a long time to get it like in Canada. For example, one of my cousins in Canada wanted to fly to where I lived in California to get cancer treatment because it would take forever to get it up there. Another reason would be our country's economic status. The cost of taxes would skyrocket and since we are already trying to find our way out of a depression, why deepen it? My final reason would be that republicans are just scared of how Obama is increasing the governnment's role in more aspects of our daily lives which conflicts with the republican policy. Its a legitimate argument if you look at a historical stand point because in our revolution in the 1700's we fought the monarcy in Great Britain because we were opressed by their government that controlled everything the colonists did. Now we are starting to see that type of government which we fought against to gain our independence slowly come back again as Obama starts increasing the role of government in our lives. You'd think the constitution would take effect by now. I could go on but Im off topic. Sorry for the wall of text!

Speaking as someone that has many, many deeply conservative, Republican friends, I can assure you that not all of us Liberals think you are evil people. Conservatives come in all kinds of different flavors. And so do liberals.
That being said though, is your Canadian cousin rich or something? Treatment for cancer is one of the most expensive services you can get in the US. My grandfather underwent treatments and after all was said and done it cost $80,000. He had insurance, but it had a cap on services so everything after that had to come out of his pocket.
Also, you've got some funny and historically inaccurate views about the founding of the United States. And you should probably read the Constitution sometime, there's nothing in there about small government.
I hate to bring this up, but why is it most Republicans want to keep government out of our health care system and away from our guns, but they want government to decide who gets to marry whom, and whether a woman should be able to get an abortion or not? Isn't it kind of self-serving for someone to insist on government intervention only when it aligns with their particular beliefs?

Holy shit did i say 1800s i meant 1700s!!!! It was the heat of the moment, ill fix it. God im a fucking idiot. i usually lean towards the conservative side of the spectrum but im not completely republican and reactionary. I am pro choice by the way. I think stem cell resrearch is a good thing. Isnt it self-serving to jump the gun on somebody when they havent fully explained their beliefs?

 

[Tranka Verrane]

Somebody has to PAY for this service you know. It's not like the money for it will magically fall out of the air.

And the people who will end up paying for it (that is, putting more in than they get out) are the people who can already afford decent healthcare and will probably go on using the private medical system after the free one comes in.

People are basically selfish, and it's not really surprising that they are complaining about it, I just wish they would be honest about their reasons and not just make up lies to back up a false story that they are really being caring about their communities.

 

[mrhockey220]

. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

But thats the thing, They WOULD get it. How many people would get that healthcare without a Health system?

Ya you can have a procedure done to you and leave without paying. If your in the E.R. they have to take you no matter what. You just have to pay at some point.

 

[Hearthing]

The larger majority of Americans still think OMFG COMMIE SCUM.

Seeing as they see the NHS we have as a communist ideal, they're bringing out the hate stick and spanking us thoroughly.

All this stuff about "being old or poor makes you unable to get treatment" in the UK is utter tosh. My elderly grandmother, prior to her death, was looked after greatly by the NHS, even bus runs to and from the shops. A BUS! In addition to looking after her, they also let her retain her independance by assisting her with transport.

America now, and since I'm going to act like an American, I will go into this having done no research and basing it on what I hear in the media. Okiday? Stick with me.

DURRRRRRRR OUR ELDERLY GET LOOKED AFTER IN DEM DERE CAREHOMES! DEYS GREAT IN DEM DERE CAREHOMES, THEYS SO INDEPENDANT, DEYS GOT ROOMS AND EVERYTHANG!

Basically - elderly person cannot afford to pay for their home, so sell their home to pay for healthcare and lose their independance.

As one of the American blogs said, Britian may have put a price tag on human life, America has put a price tag on human souls.

One day, America will get nuked, or wiped off the face of the world for being too stupid. Any of the smart americans, or the tollerable ones who accept that your country is beyond repair (as is the UK, heh :/) move out! Join the activism!

US BURN!

Right I'm done, time to get a cuppa while the flame rolllls in.
[EDIT]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8200844.stm

I love how our media is posting that up to take the utter piss out of the Americans. The first few, anyway, then the one who actually has knowledge.

Ahh it's great.

 

[Skutch]

. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

But thats the thing, They WOULD get it. How many people would get that healthcare without a Health system?

Ya you can have a procedure done to you and leave without paying. If your in the E.R. they have to take you no matter what. You just have to pay at some point.

Actually they are only legally obligated to get you to a point where your condition is no longer immediately life-threatening or debilitating. Once you are stable, they can release you.

 

[Insanum]

. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

But thats the thing, They WOULD get it. How many people would get that healthcare without a Health system?

Ya you can have a procedure done to you and leave without paying. If your in the E.R. they have to take you no matter what. You just have to pay at some point.

Yes, But instead people getting bills for $1000's that they cannot pay, they'll be paying for it through taxes. I just think it's really selfish that for the sake of some extra tax dollars means that lives will be saved. Alright, Granted, Paying for some drunken idiot's fall is annoying.

I thought you could opt out if you had your own insurance plan?

 

[Ancientgamer]

. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

But thats the thing, They WOULD get it. How many people would get that healthcare without a Health system?

Ya you can have a procedure done to you and leave without paying. If your in the E.R. they have to take you no matter what. You just have to pay at some point.

Yes, But instead people getting bills for $1000's that they cannot pay, they'll be paying for it through taxes. I just think it's really selfish that for the sake of some extra tax dollars means that lives will be saved. Alright, Granted, Paying for some drunken idiot's fall is annoying.

I thought you could opt out if you had your own insurance plan?

I'm sorry, but it's simply not the goverment's right to dicate how selfish one can be. It's not a moral watchdog.

 

[tehbeard]

Please note this post does rant a bit, as I hate american stupidity above all else

As for the whole bad mouthing socialism, this is not 1960/70/80's, the reds are not knocking down your doors taking your children off to the gulag. socialism is not communism america.

One of socialisms (or rather social democracy, which is pretty much what the UK is at the moment) ideas is the nationalization of important key national industries for the benefit of the country on the whole, while leaving other industries to the private sector. We have a national health service so that our workforce can be as productive as possible, whether they are middle managment or a factory worker. It ain't perfect but then you can't claim the high and mighty throne with your system.

As for these claims of the NHS being "orwellian" and "evil"?

possible American chain of thought of the misinformed.
(Note this is only the misinformed, I am well aware that there exist clever, perceptive americans who can see both sides, this is mainly a jab at the "redneck" american)

- "orwellian" and "evil" mean "bad" in american vocabulary.
- and all "bad" should be punished.
- But since it's a national instiute, the country is to blame for its "evil".
- thus the UK is "evil".
- and has oil to the north.
- so lets invade.
(side note: if this occurs, there will be zero incidents of friendly fire, as britains will be the enemy, not allys)

I also remember reading an article by Jeremy clarkson, where he talked to an american who had been badly burnt, been left with dodgy surgery and the hospital bill who can now only look forward to washing cars for the rest of his life. You see america, your system better then ours.

 

[Insanum]

. Also all the lives it could save? Think of how many people would die just waiting to get it?

But thats the thing, They WOULD get it. How many people would get that healthcare without a Health system?

Ya you can have a procedure done to you and leave without paying. If your in the E.R. they have to take you no matter what. You just have to pay at some point.

Yes, But instead people getting bills for $1000's that they cannot pay, they'll be paying for it through taxes. I just think it's really selfish that for the sake of some extra tax dollars means that lives will be saved. Alright, Granted, Paying for some drunken idiot's fall is annoying.

I thought you could opt out if you had your own insurance plan?

I'm sorry, but it's simply not the goverment's right to dicate how selfish one can be. It's not a moral watchdog.

D'ya know what, Your probably right, But at the end of the day i know that if i walked home from work & was stabbed Ill be put into an ambulance and taken to a clean hospital (if you say its dirty you've not been to ones near me, Theyre bloody spotless!)and hopefully nursed back to health.

I know i pay my taxes for that service.

If you ammies want to pay thousands of dollars for being stabbed by an unknown attacker, go right ahead.