Confused Briton seeks clarification from right -wing Americans

[sneakypenguin]

Spoiler: quotewall

As far as you having choices go no ones forcing you to give up your private insurance...this simply provides another, (hopefully) cheaper option for people who can't afford private insurance or don't want it for whatever reason.

To continue this point those of us who wish for private care(as I have) instead of government run, do we get that tax money back? Taxes will HAVE to go up, you can't add a trillion+dollars to the deficit without them increasing (even on the middle class). SO why should those of us who go to college and get those 50-200k middle class jobs have to pay for insurance twice?

Kinda like having to pay for a PS3 and 360 when all you play(and want) is the 360. How is that fair? Granted there is a lot of things in government like this but healthcare would be a huge portion of the budget(and taxes) so hence more important to me than being robbed blind on say property taxes.

Of course taxes will go up. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. Then again taxes will be on the rise regardless but yes with a brand new gov't health care program taxes will HAVE to go up. Theres just no way of getting around that. Now your analogy isn't exactly right though. It's not like someones going to go to the hospital and the bills going to be mailed to you. But yes at the end of the day everyones taxes, eventually even those who earn less then 100k a year will end up being raised.

Now if things go the way they are trending now we'll see top heavy tax percentages. Which puts most of the tax burden on businesses and the rich. What those percentages end up being who knows. Is it "fair" to tax the rich more? Well thats a a huge can of worms in an of itself.

At the end of the day it comes down to whether your willing to be taxed more in order to help others. And it's definitely not that easy to part with your hard earned money, trust me I know.

Yep shouldn't that be optional (helping people) doing a wrong (taking someones earned money for something they don't want/need) for a "right" (helping ppl) isn't IMO the correct way to go about things. But then again I'm one of those idealist libertarians

 

[asinann]

I mean sorry come back later when we have a balanced budget and a surplus and the idea would sound a lot more rational.

We had one, the republicans squandered the whole thing in under a year. Spent it all on tax cuts to the wealthy if I remember right.

 

[Cliff_m85]

Considering that the United States is one of the only first world countries that DOESN'T have public healthcare and how LOW they sit on the World Health Organization's Healthcare System Scale one would think there would be significant data to suggest that public healthcare is the best current path for healthcare...

However the opponents of Public Healthcare seem to be the type of people who plug their ears and pretend that The United States is the best at everything no matter what anyone else says. They also seem to care far more about lining their own pockets and spreading panic than they do about what is actually good for the people of their country.

We have public education.....where do we rank on the scale of education around the world?

Greed is good for the people of this country. Competition breeds lower prices and better technology. Give everyone the same amount of money for the same job with no promise of a raise and watch what happens.

 

[Alex_P]

From what I hear, Obama isn't suggesting a wholly public system like those countries.

If a strong plan is implemented, insurance companies fear that the US will eventually transition to a single-payer system, either because of some kind of "slippery slope" political thing (kinda bogus since we've had public healthcare via Medicare for, like, forty years now) or because the public system will flat-out outcompete them (which wouldn't actually hurt the patients).

-- Alex

 

[cobra_ky]

Honestly, I haven't heard one good thing about the new health care system. I keep hearing you'll be fined for not having insurance, if you have it already you can keep what you have, but if you want to change you have to use the plans the government has available, and a healthy 20 year old would [ay the same monthly as a 70 year old cancer patient. None of which makes sense to me.

most of these things are false.

I'd rather just stick with insurance through my college or through a private company (assuming I can actually afford it) than have to deal with the shit they're pulling. Obama is still new, and I for one don't think he's ready to tackle some of the things he wants to because he lacks the experience necessary to foresee the problems he could cause with every little thing he does.

obama isn't writing the legislation.

Like with the Cambridge police department and that whole debacle because he couldn't keep his opinion to himself when it was wildly inappropriate to call them stupid for doing their jobs.

and he ended up getting them to have a beer together at the white house, where the two men had a friendly discussion and agreed to meet further. the country ended up having a meaningful discussion on race relations in this country and ipersonally learned a lot from the incident. the offhand comment obama made during the health care press conference was unfortunate but the end result could not have been better.

 

[Alex_P]

Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

Hi, Lou Dobbs! Didn't recognize you there for a minute.

-- Alex

 

[Cliff_m85]

I didnt care, Then they pulled the NHS into the arguement.

How dare they! Stupid conservative nut-jobs, On WE are allowed to slag off our health service!

Get your own, THEN slag it off!

Because some people are too shallow-minded to see the truth. It happens with just about everybody... well, here at least.

Its a power grab, and Orwellian is just a descriptive of how they are presenting itself. Doing a little research you will easily find that the president is back and forth on exactly what is in the bill (of which there are several different versions, not just one) and honestly if you take a historical, or definitive standpoint it is socialism.

Problem is, "socialism" has been so overused in the last 20 years, both correctly and incorrectly, that it has now become empty rhetoric. Nazi, likewise, but the terms are in essence the same, because Nazi stands for National Socialist. Just look at what socialist governments did in 1915-30 Russia and 1930-36 Germany and make the comparison of what the president is saying.

Also, "free" is not as free as you would expect. I don't want my neighbor paying for my health care because I don't want to pay for his. A tax increase is mandatory to be able to pay for it, so it's not "free." There is also going to be rationing within the bill, as it stands in each version, which is due to the fact that they cannot simply afford it for everyone, and the poor will lose out there still.

Also, I want MY CHOICES not the government choosing what health care I will be able to get. Within each version of the bill there are stipulations saying that all major decisions will be made by a government bureaucrat, which takes time that could, and will cause unnecessary mortality and morbidity, due to the lack of immediate on site decision making. I would rather have a doctor, not a politician, make recommendations and keep myself in charge, rather than have a corrupt power hungry politician in charge of my health.

Maybe I'm too much on the "self responsibility" thing because I'm not some mentally deficient, pathetic simpleton who requires the government to hold my hand for every little thing in the world.

Fair point, Fairly rational at least. Y'see the thing is, i know an increase in tax is on the cards, But think of the number of lives it could save? With taxpayer money going into healthcare shouldn't that also bring up the standard of healthcare on the bottom line?

Also, just because something calls itself socialist or a republic doesn't mean it actually is. The USSR, China and North Korea all call themselves republics. In fact, almost every communist nation calls itself a republic somewhere in it's full name.

Republicans are hated in the US because they always try first to fear monger, then when that doesn't work they go search for some piece of dirt that really shouldn't be considered a high crime or misdemeanor, but since the republican party wants back in power, they go for an impeachment based on it. Ronald Regan (the patron saint of the current republican party) did nothing but cut taxes on the wealthy and kill as many public services as he could. Obama is proposing raising taxes to the rate they were at in 1985. Every republican administration from 1980 to present has cut the crap out of services while raising military spending and lowering taxes on the upper class and corporations.

Democrats aren't a whole lot better, but that's mostly because the party is schizophrenic due to constant attacks by republicans. What we need over here is some sort of viable third party, but every time one attempts to form at the state level, the parties group up and pass a law to make sure those new parties can't get on ballets. If you can't get on the ballet you can't get elected.

Both parties are crap, but you have to pick one or the other.

No, you don't. There are other parties. I hate this "lesser of two evils" sh*t. I swear if America had to vote and the Democrat was Stalin and the Republican was Hitler, only 1/8th would vote independant/Libertarian/etc.

 

[TyphoidMary]

I'm just as perplexed as you are, especially seeing how pissed of people are getting at the town hall meetings over cheap national healthcare and cheaper private healthcare.

Honestly, I haven't heard one good thing about the new health care system. I keep hearing you'll be fined for not having insurance, if you have it already you can keep what you have, but if you want to change you have to use the plans the government has available, and a healthy 20 year old would [ay the same monthly as a 70 year old cancer patient. None of which makes sense to me.

Thats funny not much of your rambling paragraph made sense to me. Try checking your facts and doing some research.

That's the info I keep hearing every time I'm around when it's brought up.

 

[Cliff_m85]

I mean sorry come back later when we have a balanced budget and a surplus and the idea would sound a lot more rational.

We had one, the republicans squandered the whole thing in under a year. Spent it all on tax cuts to the wealthy if I remember right.

If by 'wealthy' you mean "Iraq and Afghanistan", then yes....you remember correctly.

 

[sneakypenguin]

I mean sorry come back later when we have a balanced budget and a surplus and the idea would sound a lot more rational.

We had one, the republicans squandered the whole thing in under a year. Spent it all on tax cuts to the wealthy if I remember right.

thanks to a republican house all though the 90s
Anyways those tax cuts to the rich didn't hurt our revenue too much i'd say. (bush did spend way to flippin much though.
Tax revenue (in billions)
1999 1,827.6
2006 2,407.3
2007 2,568.2

 

[pompom8volt]

I'm not even close to being a conservative but what they don't like is that it is payed for with taxes, AKA "The governments trying to steal my money and give it to low lifers" Personally i like the idea.

 

[Bigeyez]

I'm just as perplexed as you are, especially seeing how pissed of people are getting at the town hall meetings over cheap national healthcare and cheaper private healthcare.

Actually these "grassroots" town hall protests are sponsered by republicans and/or republican supporters. Nothing really wrong with them organizing protests but if you didn't know better you'd really think "omg everyone in American hates this!".

Skip to about 2:15 in this video. Thats when she starts talking about the town hall meetings specifically.

http://vodpod.com/watch/2012265-rachel-maddow-exposes-fake-protesters-at-health-care-town-halls

Another MSNBC report about them

http://www.videosift.com/video/Olbermann-Fake-Protesters-At-Health-Care-Town-Halls

And finally a link to a guide on how these people should organize themselves in order to give the impression that they are the majority at these town hall meetings.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/08/memo-details-co-ordinated-anti-reform-harrassment-strategy.php?page=1

Edit: I don't really like MSNBC but these are just the first clips I could find. Pretty much all major tv news outlets did reports on this though. Hell The Daily Show (or was it Colbert idk) had a skit on it as well.

Edit 2: Found this CNN video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEH9M0Wgvzc

Pretty good stuff overall. Hehe Politics are amazing. Anyways again there is nothing wrong with them doing this. It's completely in their right to organize and proest and whatnot but the real trick here is making it seem like it's a legitimate grassroots movement and that they manage to pull off pretty damn well. I know plenty of people who ate all this junk up as if the whole of America is against the bill.

Yep shouldn't that be optional (helping people) doing a wrong (taking someones earned money for something they don't want/need) for a "right" (helping ppl) isn't IMO the correct way to go about things. But then again I'm one of those idealist libertarians

Yeah thats something everyone has to decide for themselves. And honestly the tax issue is the only real issue I can agree with against the bill. Especially when you think about how tax payer money tends to be misspent or simply disappear but meh. I could ramble on and on about crap like that.

 

[internetzealot1]

Admittedly, government does do some things that are useful. Institution of law enforcement and utilities such as roads do aide the development of humanity. But when they make me pay for some dope smoker's chemo, they've crossed a line. Oh, and if my ass is ever "broke and AIDS infected," I'm still gonna say it... just with a whole lot more conviction.

 

[sneakypenguin]

so barring some sort of cancer or similar disease i'm good to go.

Yeah...I wouldn't exactly call having health care that isn't going to up to the task of paying for treatment for "some sort of cancer or similar disease" being "good to go."

And even in said event I can just sell assets and go bankrupt. No one else should have to pay for me. I don't feel I have a claim to someone elses work and money. (one reason why I didn't take my state scholarship cause its taxpayer funded)

Well, then your problem isn't with health care, your problem is with any sort of government expenditure meant to improve the quality of life of citizens.

More with the unfair way that the taxation will/does work. Especially when it's a service I won't use. If the government wants to make it's citizens life better then fine but do it in a just way. None of this social justice crap. But thats idealist thinking on my part...

 

[Knight Templar]

That's the info I keep hearing every time I'm around when it's brought up.

Yeah thats very reliable, because overhearing things is a valid source of information. Maybe you should do a little research insted of repeating everything you hear.

 

[dalek sec]

It's rather embrassing to see all those morons yelling and screaming in those half assed town hall meetings like monkey's with their tails set on fire.