Controversial God of War: Ascension Trophy To Be Renamed

[WindKnight]

Sessler didn't get the context or the facts right. The cutscene is Orkos saving Kratos from the Furies and revealing his betrayal to them for the first time which Sessler didn't give context or description to at all. Orkos believes in Kratos' cause not because he beat up Alecto. In fact, it was only an illusion that Alecto laughed at Kratos for. There was a reason why Orkos had to save Kratos from the Furies, not the other way around. He decided to help him because he knew that the Furies helped Ares trick Kratos into killing his own wife and daughter. He didn't think it was right that they would capture and torture him mentally and physically for all eternity because he refused to serve Ares ever again. He also knew that they planned to use Kratos to help them overthrow Olympus. Orkos was told of this by an Oracle who was his girlfriend. When he tried warning Zeus, the Furies under Ares' request, captured him and blinded his girlfriend, made her prisoner in her own temple so Zeus would never find out.

Except using the phrase effectively reduces the whole situation into a joke about men vs women. that is the point he is making, that is the point why using the phrase for the trophy title has made people uncomfortable. Without it, the sequence is in no way problematic. It may be uncomfortable for some, but it makes sense in context, it makes sense because of what the characters do and say.

The phrase turns that whole context into a throwaway and uncomfortable joke, which is what Sessler complained about.

He is not missing the context, and he is not misleading people. Did he overeact? maybe. Are people not getting what he complained about? Yes. But ultimately he did not misinterpret or misrepresent what made him feel like the game overstepped the mark - the tacky, dude-bro frat-boy joke they used for the trophy title.

 

[anthony87]

I think the biggest question of this story isn't is this trophy sexist or whether it should have been changed but why are so many up in arms about someone being offended?

Probably because nowadays there's always someone getting offended about something and it's starting to get pretty tiring hearing about people being offended all the time. That's what I think anyway, not speaking for other people here.

Related: http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=29555

 

[1337mokro]

You could punch Zeus into a bloody pulp. But when it happens to a woman. MISOGYNY! BRUTAL! EVIL!

The violent act in itself was not the cause of rage (it fits within the narrative, and it's not even as bloody as countless other kills in the series). Lots of female characters in other games have taken far worse punishment without a wave of rage spreading over the internet. Obviously gamers don't have any particular problem with the depiction of violence against women if it makes sense within the game and it's not specifically targeted at women just because they are women.

It's the combination of the violent act and the "Bros before hoes" name which causes the rage. The trophy name was chosen BECAUSE the enemy in question was female. The violence was justified in the game's narrative, but the trophy name turned it into a joke, deliberately focusing on the genders of the characters involved and trivializing the violent act, which would have been alright by itself.

The trophy was basically pointing and laughing and saying "LOL violence against women".

I don't normally like when things get too "politically correct", but there was a very valid complaint here.

So by that logic an achievement. OH I don't know "Your aim is Nuts" awarded for shooting men in the balls 100 times for example would spark similar outrage right? The violence has now because gender based and should spark outrage right? Right?!

No. Nobody gives a fuck about violence to men. That's why a joke achievement about testicular injury is HILARIOUS! But a bros before hos achievement is misogynistic and WRONG!!! Yeah mate that a double standard. Get over it.

Bros before pussy PC behaviour.

 

[jcfrommars9]

Except using the phrase effectively reduces the whole situation into a joke about men vs women. that is the point he is making, that is the point why using the phrase for the trophy title has made people uncomfortable. Without it, the sequence is in no way problematic. It may be uncomfortable for some, but it makes sense in context, it makes sense because of what the characters do and say.

The phrase turns that whole context into a throwaway and uncomfortable joke, which is what Sessler complained about.

He is not missing the context, and he is not misleading people. Did he overeact? maybe. Are people not getting what he complained about? Yes. But ultimately he did not misinterpret or misrepresent what made him feel like the game overstepped the mark - the tacky, dude-bro frat-boy joke they used for the trophy title.

He didn't explain that the trophy only had to do with Orkos betraying the Furies. That's the eptiome of misleading people and misinterpreting and misrepresenting context. Too many of the people who agreed with him assumed incorrectly that the title was given as a result Kratos smashing a woman's face in. That was in part his fault and his irresponsibility. Using an incendiary word like "misogyny" only furthered this. Had he explained it in proper context, people could have still found it distasteful but for the right reasons. Instead I have you telling me it reduces the situation to a bad joke when it wasn't even regarding Kratos beating up a woman.

I just watched the Sessler review and I got to say this is a massive over reaction, not by Sessler but by his critics. the way I see people reacting to his video you would think he spent the whole thing bashing the game for this one moment but no he spent like thirty seconds of a seven minute review to point it out and at the end of the video still says he enjoyed the game overall, and even if I think he's wrong, I probably wouldn't had even noticed it on my own and even with it pointed out I don't care, he made his argument and moved on. I think the biggest question of this story isn't is this trophy sexist or whether it should have been changed but why are so many up in arms about someone being offended?

I'm not up in arms, but Sessler regarded the term "Bros before Hos" as misogyny without any regard for it's context. I can't respect his criticism or his opinion if he can't respect context. Practically anything can become offensive if context isn't relevant.

 

[Rblade]

I think alot of people are kind of missing the point of: "bro's before hos"

I've always thought it to mean: "Don't put a girlfriend, or potential girlfriend, before your dude friends." I fail to see how that is in any way in bad taste. Unless it's specifically about the word ho, in which case people need to seriously work on their toe length.

I like to avoid saying this kind of thing but highlighting the "abuse against women" in a game where the main character basically tears the entire world a new one because he's just so friggin pissed off at everything, seems like you're searching for misogyny where non is even remotely intended. And besides, that kind off how they rolled in greek myths so it would be kind off dumb for what is basically a more violent hercules to start pulling punches because he's big into womens rights.

 

[1337mokro]

You could punch Zeus into a bloody pulp. But when it happens to a woman. MISOGYNY! BRUTAL! EVIL!

Oh please! You could get a trophy for banging all the women in the game, who I would like to remind you are nothing more but sex objects in these games. No misogyny here. Nothing to worry about.

Fuck you! Lara Croft gets impaled through the head on spikes and I didn't see Adam Sessler stirring up a storm for this controversial unnecessary brutality that actually made me a feel uncomfortable. A pointless trophy in a franchise that prides itself on ultra violence and sex is what gets highlighted instead.

To get worked up over this is to get worked up about the Chinese store in my neighborhood that still has a giant sign over it saying Oriental. Because we collectively decided that Oriental was now offensive to.

Fuck Sessler and all the other PC pansies out there.

Did you even read the article? Or watch the video? The issue is explicitly NOT about beating up a woman. It's about a tasteless joke that implies that it is funny to beat up a woman SPECIFICALLY because she's a woman. That's gross.

Yes and it loses on BOTH fucking fronts. It is both an act of violence that is overshadowed by other acts of violence AND jokes like these are RAMPANT about male death/mutilation. Do I have to point out the Nutshots in Saints Row, Sniper Elite, a slew of other online shooter which are basically a joke on themselves about physical injury to males? Do I have to go through lists and lists and lists of achievements to gather a nice bag of joke achievements involving violence to men? I think I don't need to because we both know they exist.

Where was the uproar there? There was none because violence against men is funny! If you don't believe me watch Django unchained. Try not to laugh during the last shoot out and then compare the MASSIVE amount of violence to the way a woman dies in that movie. Day and fucking night because people get squeamish about female death/mutilation merely by the fact that it is a woman.

PC garbage is what this is nothing more.

 

[mattaui]

If the sort of attention that is applied to games in recent years was applied to books, television and movies, we'd hardly see anything released unscathed because of the constant need to change something that someone, somewhere, was offended over. Artistic endeavors will inevitably offend, even in the mildest of cases.

This really has nothing to do with the phrase in question - a phrase I'm not prone to use and don't care for. However, that's why it's funny, and humor is often about skating along the edges of offense, if not barreling full force into it and forcing people to laugh in spite of themselves.

The sooner studios start standing up for their own artistic integrity, the sooner people will stop carping on them to change things. You don't like it? Fine, don't play it, don't buy it, and feel free to complain all you want about it, but don't expect it to change.

Do the people who complain about this one line in a video game spend as much time focused on other forms of media, and demanding change? I'd hope not, for their sake, because that sounds like a full time job of being constantly outraged.

 

[XMark]

You could punch Zeus into a bloody pulp. But when it happens to a woman. MISOGYNY! BRUTAL! EVIL!

The violent act in itself was not the cause of rage (it fits within the narrative, and it's not even as bloody as countless other kills in the series). Lots of female characters in other games have taken far worse punishment without a wave of rage spreading over the internet. Obviously gamers don't have any particular problem with the depiction of violence against women if it makes sense within the game and it's not specifically targeted at women just because they are women.

It's the combination of the violent act and the "Bros before hoes" name which causes the rage. The trophy name was chosen BECAUSE the enemy in question was female. The violence was justified in the game's narrative, but the trophy name turned it into a joke, deliberately focusing on the genders of the characters involved and trivializing the violent act, which would have been alright by itself.

The trophy was basically pointing and laughing and saying "LOL violence against women".

I don't normally like when things get too "politically correct", but there was a very valid complaint here.

So by that logic an achievement. OH I don't know "Your aim is Nuts" awarded for shooting men in the balls 100 times for example would spark similar outrage right? The violence has now because gender based and should spark outrage right? Right?!

No. Nobody gives a fuck about violence to men. That's why a joke achievement about testicular injury is HILARIOUS! But a bros before hos achievement is misogynistic and WRONG!!! Yeah mate that a double standard. Get over it.

Bros before pussy PC behaviour.

You make a good point, that I mostly agree with. This hypothetical "Your aim is Nuts" achievement SHOULD bear equal weight to "bros before hoes". It should be considered just as offensive, or on the other hand even nullify possible offense toward the "bros before hoes" achievement. In a world which just came into existence today with no past history, where women are represented as much as men.

However, we both know that the playing field is not even. Action games are developed by overwhelmingly male development teams, and are marketed toward a mostly-male demographic, so even in the case of that hypothetical achievement, the intent behind it is entirely different.

 

[CaptainKarma]

You could punch Zeus into a bloody pulp. But when it happens to a woman. MISOGYNY! BRUTAL! EVIL!

Oh please! You could get a trophy for banging all the women in the game, who I would like to remind you are nothing more but sex objects in these games. No misogyny here. Nothing to worry about.

Fuck you! Lara Croft gets impaled through the head on spikes and I didn't see Adam Sessler stirring up a storm for this controversial unnecessary brutality that actually made me a feel uncomfortable. A pointless trophy in a franchise that prides itself on ultra violence and sex is what gets highlighted instead.

To get worked up over this is to get worked up about the Chinese store in my neighborhood that still has a giant sign over it saying Oriental. Because we collectively decided that Oriental was now offensive to.

Fuck Sessler and all the other PC pansies out there.

Did you even read the article? Or watch the video? The issue is explicitly NOT about beating up a woman. It's about a tasteless joke that implies that it is funny to beat up a woman SPECIFICALLY because she's a woman. That's gross.

Yes and it loses on BOTH fucking fronts. It is both an act of violence that is overshadowed by other acts of violence AND jokes like these are RAMPANT about male death/mutilation. Do I have to point out the Nutshots in Saints Row, Sniper Elite, a slew of other online shooter which are basically a joke on themselves about physical injury to males? Do I have to go through lists and lists and lists of achievements to gather a nice bag of joke achievements involving violence to men? I think I don't need to because we both know they exist.

Where was the uproar there? There was none because violence against men is funny! If you don't believe me watch Django unchained. Try not to laugh during the last shoot out and then compare the MASSIVE amount of violence to the way a woman dies in that movie. Day and fucking night because people get squeamish about female death/mutilation merely by the fact that it is a woman.

PC garbage is what this is nothing more.

You are very angry about changing a joke to not be demeaning to women. Think on that.

The issue, as the review said, as the article said, as I have said, as every fucking sensible person has said, is NOT that the game endorses violence against women. It is NOT that the game makes violence against women a joke. The issue is that the game makes a joke about violence against women BECAUSE they are women.

Yes, there are jokes made about male-specific violence (I won't lie, nut-shots are funny). But there is a difference between violence committed by men against men. In action movies and games etc nearly all violence is from a male perspective. It's men doing it, it's men receiving it. It's not a scene in which "a man gets shot in the nuts", it's a scene in which "a person gets shot in the nuts". The male is the default so the sexual nature is less of an issue. In a world without sexism we could make jokes about EVERYONE being shot in the genitals (and what a world that would be), but the problem with the achievement is that it implies a nasty "haha take that, wimmin!" attitude.

Anyway if you're passionate about your work you should resist self censorship wherever possible.

What? Why? How is self censorship a bad thing? Self censorship just seems to me to be the ability to step back and think "is this saying what I want it say, and ONLY what I want it to say, or is going to be hurtful/insulting in a way I don't intend". That's a damn good thing to do.

You seem to forget that this thread has over 100 replies.

And? That's nothing. It's a tiny thread. It's all irrelevant anyway. People could be massively overreacting and it wouldn't magically make the joke any more tasteful. I apologise if I'm misinterpreting you, but it does seem to me that you're using "you're overreacting" as code for "the original achievement is fine" which is a nonsense argument.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

People need to learn to take a damn joke.

First answer, spot on.

'nuff said.

Besides, 'bro's before ho's' is something that reminds me of situations I've witnessed in real life, and it would make me giggle, chuckle, laugh out all spelled out, with spittle.

'bro's before foes' is lame. It does not tickle my fancy.

 

[Jaebird]

At the end of the day, it's a tasteless joke. Plain and simple. People can pick apart this "controversy" until the sun sets, and it still wouldn't matter.

 

[TsharpInfinity]

Men and women are different. That's why we have different bathrooms.

OT: I don't think that the original joke was very offensive, but I don't think it was funny either. To me, the joke fell flat, and changing "hoes" to "foes" is actually kinda better. It's not a big deal either way, in my opinion.

 

[anthony87]

You are very angry about changing a joke to not be demeaning to women. Think on that.

Except it's not demeaning to women....

 

[CaptainKarma]

You are very angry about changing a joke to not be demeaning to women. Think on that.

Except it's not demeaning to women....

That's an interesting argument you have there, you've definitely read my post and responded carefully to the issues I've raised. Good Lord, how wrong I was to find the achievement tasteless, you've sure opened my eyes.

Oh wait. No, you've done that other thing. Contributed exactly nothing to the discussion.

 

[jcfrommars9]

The issue is that the game makes a joke about violence against women BECAUSE they are women.

No it doesn't. You see Windknight, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Sessler helped fuel this incorrect underlying implication of misogyny that the game never took part of. If it's true that the name that the trophy was a woman's idea, I'm not saying that makes it right per se but I would gamble that she did not intend to be misogynistic against her own gender or celebrate violence against women.

 

[KelDG]

Oh me oh my, some of you politically correct crusaders really need to move to the 3rd world or have a war happen to give you some perspective on what is important in life.

I will give you a clue... It is NOT having a hissy-fit over the definition of a word.

Have fun wasting your time fighting a battle that was over decades ago.

 

[WindKnight]

I'm not up in arms, but Sessler regarded the term "Bros before Hos" as misogyny without any regard for it's context. I can't respect his criticism or his opinion if he can't respect context. Practically anything can become offensive if context isn't relevant.

Its the context he is complaining about.

Specifically the context is that it underlines a sequence where you brutally beat a woman, and her son sides with you, by giving you a nudge and going 'Dude, bros before hos, amirite?'. It turns the whole thing into a joke, a poor, tasteless joke that undermines the moment, and can be argued to be making light of violence against women.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

ITS A GAME, Get over it.

IT'S A TRIVIAL CHANGE MADE TO A GAME WITH NO IMPACT ON YOU, get over it.

I always find it weird how people who are telling others to get over it seem to be so bothered.

You don't see the problem with that logic?

Person 1: "I wrote AA."
Person 2: "I don't like AA, make it AB!"
Person 1: "...Why is it a problem? It doesn't affect you."
Person 2: "...Why is it a problem to change it? It doesn't affect you."
Person 1,2: "............................"

Why is it a big deal to criticize the criticism as being pointless?

It's a juvenile joke. It doesn't hurt to change it or not change it, but I don't want to see more changes made to games because people are offended.